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Nampa Walmart OC incident.

bourneshooter

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*Note* This is the first time I've gone into Wal-Mart in probably 2-3 months because of
negative reactions to other posters here on OCDO.


This incident happend less that 45 minutes ago. 2056 MST.


Walk into Wal-Mart OC'ing. Wearing a plain T-shirt tucked in and respectable blue jeans. My brother is with me and he is also dressed respectably.

As soon as I approach the greeter he looks at me and points at my gun. I say, “I’m legal to do this in compliance with Wal-Mart policy.” He says, “No you can’t do that.”

So I say, “get your manager.” He promptly does call for one on the radio.

Then the greeter sort of “apologizes” for having to stop me. He continually said stuff like, “now I’m a gun man,” “my job is to stop you when they say no guns in the store,” and “You’re battle is with management.”

The first manager gets there – Asst. Manager.

I repeat to him that the Wal-Mart Company policy is to follow all State and Federal laws. “State law allows me to do this” The guy looks at me and says, “Ok.”

The Asst. Manager asks if my brother has a sidearm as well. He doesn’t and we let them know that. FYI, my brother is under 18 so no OC of a handgun for a little longer.

I then ask the Asst. Manager if I need to go elsewhere to shop.

He says exact quote, “I don’t know what the state law is on this.” This guy did know that you can OC in AZ but not here in ID. So I informed him that it is legal to OC here in ID.

Another Manager shows up. I believe this one was a department manager.

Dept. Manager states, “Our company policy doesn’t allow,” to which I state, “Actually it does, it says that if follows all state and federal laws.”
The Dept. Manager then states, “But this is private property.” Yes I agree but the policy is that I can carry in Wal-Mart.

The Dept Manager then says, “Can’t you leave it in your car?” I ask him, “Why would I want to?”

Dept. Manager, “Why do you need to carry? You’ve got your hammer cocked.”

At this point I try to answer the “why I need to carry question.”

“32 People were told they didn’t need to carry.” And then he cuts me off. I was making reference to the Virginia Tech Massacre of unarmed students.

Another manager then shows up and is acts totally different. I believe he may have been the Night Manager.

He states, “You can’t come in here with that on, I DON”T CARE.”

I try to let him know about the Wal-Mart policy at this point.

He then states, “Wal-Mart Policy is private property.”

I shake my head at that statement.

He then continues, “I’m going to call the police right now if you’re not out of here.”

The Dept. Manager then jumps in and says, “Just take it out to your car dude. (My recording becomes unclear at this point).

I immediately begin leaving the store as the Night Manager was pulling his cell phone out of his pocket.

It was interesting that these guys didn’t follow me out of the door.

Needless to say I’m slightly upset over the whole matter. :banghead:

The Walgreen’s across the street from this location received my business and will continue to if the Wal-Mart doesn't do something to fix this problem.

I'm attaching the link to the audio recording I made of the evening. Sorry for the quality as it was in my lower pants pocket.

http://www.mattlevi.zoomshare.com/files/Wal_Mart_OC_experience.m4a
 

Citizen

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Please don't argue with managers and so forth.

It just raises tempers, creates hostility.

If they don't know the policy and law before the OC'er walks in, and they object,I suspect they're not going to accept the OC'ers declarations of policy or law.

Just politely acknowledge their right, get names if possible in a friendly way, and leave.

Then contactthe next level of management up to make sure the word gets passed along to the store level. Not even a complaint, if you already know the store doesn't ban firearms. Just a nice note to Mrs. District Manager that store manager Bob wasn't aware of the policy and please bring him up to speed.Etc.

It goes so much smoother that way. Doesn't irritate people, and lets them save face a little when you do return.
 

IndianaBoy79

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I didn't realize that Walmart policy was pretty much the same as Cabella's. I thought we were just having troubles getting them to change their policy and allow us in. Do we have any kind of letter from upper management or such to use as ammo? You remained calm and respectful as far as I'm concerned. No reason not to speak up so long as you do it right.

Also, I didn't post this since it wasn't firearm related....but several weeks ago I was detained until the police arived after buying $150 bucks of merchandise at the Walmart in Garden City on State St. I wouldn't show them my receipt...when they eventually found the girl who rang me up and confirmed it wasn't stolen, I took my receipt out and promptly returned it all. Getting stopped for no reason really gets on my nerves...next time, I think they'll have to phisically detain me, I'm gonna keep going towards the door when they ask me to stop.
 

nathan

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When I was stopped in Walmart for open carrying, the manager called the regional manager who told the manager that it was his decision and that walmart is private property so they can do what they want. I was told to leave or they would call the police. Walmart firearms policy may have been to mirror state law at some point but not anymore.
 

Saint

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I have never understood showing a receipt when walking out to be a problem. Costco has required it for as long as I can remember and frankly I think it is a good idea for a business to do so.

That being said, this forum has nothing to do with insurance policies of corporations. This is specifically about OC and in this instance, a bad experience at a company which has a policy to allow OC.

I suggest we keep all posts directed to that topic and no other, as doing so will result in us staying focused and will help to avoid flaming other members.
 

Decoligny

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jack wrote:
You should open a business and see why loss prevention is so important in retail. If you pulled that crap in one of my shops, I would ban you from the property. We don't need business from imbeciles. Walmart like all businesses has every legal right to check receipts.

Please cite any statute that gives any business the right to check receipts before "allowing" you to leave with your property. I doubt that any such statute exists.

Once you have payed for the merchandise, it legally becomes YOUR property i.e. YOUR EFFECTS, and the receipt becomes part of YOUR PAPERS.

The 4th Amendment of the United States Constitution protects your right to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure of your person, papers, and effects.

Unless the Walmart employee has reasonable suspiscion that you have stolenmerchandise, (in most States that means someone has to actually witness you stealing the merchandise), then they have absolutely NO RIGHT to seize your person (detain you) and absolutely NO RIGHT tosearch your papers (your receipt).

Because a business is private property, it means that they can deny you entry for any reason, or ask you to leave for any reason, i.e. Open Carry, however, it doesn't give them any special authority to violate any of your Constitutional Rights.
 

jaredbelch

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Decoligny wrote:
jack wrote:
You should open a business and see why loss prevention is so important in retail. If you pulled that crap in one of my shops, I would ban you from the property. We don't need business from imbeciles. Walmart like all businesses has every legal right to check receipts.

Please cite any statute that gives any business the right to check receipts before "allowing" you to leave with your property. I doubt that any such statute exists.

Once you have payed for the merchandise, it legally becomes YOUR property i.e. YOUR EFFECTS, and the receipt becomes part of YOUR PAPERS.

The 4th Amendment of the United States Constitution protects your right to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure of your person, papers, and effects.

Unless the Walmart employee has reasonable suspiscion that you have stolenmerchandise, (in most States that means someone has to actually witness you stealing the merchandise), then they have absolutely NO RIGHT to seize your person (detain you) and absolutely NO RIGHT tosearch your papers (your receipt).

Because a business is private property, it means that they can deny you entry for any reason, or ask you to leave for any reason, i.e. Open Carry, however, it doesn't give them any special authority to violate any of your Constitutional Rights.
+1 Decoligny.

See below for a decent explanation and discussion on the receipt checking issue. (doesn't add much more than what Decoligny said)

http://consumerist.com/consumer/legal-issues/ask-the-consumerist-do-i-have-to-let-stores-check-my-receipt-217098.php
 

Jersey Ron

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jack, after reading your first response i wanted to disagree with you with all my heart. HOWEVER, after reading your last response, I must admit you are sooooo right! bottom line, and i qoute you "NOT THE IMAGE WE WANTTO PROJECT TO THE COMMUNITY"









jersey
 

Citizen

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jack wrote:
SNIP Astore can require you to show a receipt for merchandise before leaving a store. Not having a receipt and attempting to leave with merchandiseis in fact reasonable articulable suspicion to detain someone . Once the person steps outside the store it is shoplifting, while inside it is illegal concealment of merchandise (in most States), either way they can detain you.
Cite, please.
 

The_Side_of_Good

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Jersey Ron wrote:
jack, after reading your first response i wanted to disagree with you with all my heart. HOWEVER, after reading your last response, I must admit you are sooooo right! bottom line, and i qoute you "NOT THE IMAGE WE WANTTO PROJECT TO THE COMMUNITY"









jersey
I concur (jack & jersey)... This is the singular apprehension I wrestle with whenforced toOC... Being stereotyped along withthose that seek out confrontation for the sake of confrontation. If you just have to shop at Wal-mart (and others that don't know policy and law), you must accept that you're going to encounter these issues, so why go? Its like wearing a leisure suit into a biker bar...they just can'thelp themselves.
 

Decoligny

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Having never been asked to see a receipt at Walmart, I have never given the wrong image. However, if they do stop me and demand to see my receipt, then I will await the police, and then afterwards I will be returning all the merchandise for a full refund for being treated like a thief. If they are going to treat me like a thief, then they had better have a DAMN GOOD reason to treat me like a thief. And just because 99 sheep agree to have their rights shorn doesn't mean that I will willingly be the 100th.

Open Carry is not a cause just because we wan't to Open Carry. It is a cause for some of us because we are standing our ground against the slow degradation of our rights. All of our rights, not just the right to keep and bear arms.

I'll bet there were two or three black people on the bus who were saying "Damn it woman, just get up and move, you're making us look like asses" when Rosa Parks refused to have her rights trampled.
 

jaredbelch

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When you allow people with some image of authority to control what you do, you are giving in. All of my rights are important, and unfortunately some here in this forum think that only 2A rights matter.

Being detained and required to prove I didn't shoplift kinda goes against my rights of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" as well as my 4th Amendment rights to be secure in my papers and effects...

Once you handed me my receipt, and my effects (merchandise) it became mine, and the 4th Amendment does apply...

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated...
 

jack

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Citizen wrote:
jack wrote:
SNIP Astore can require you to show a receipt for merchandise before leaving a store. Not having a receipt and attempting to leave with merchandiseis in fact reasonable articulable suspicion to detain someone . Once the person steps outside the store it is shoplifting, while inside it is illegal concealment of merchandise (in most States), either way they can detain you.
Cite, please.

If you read my above response I addressed that, " not all situations that constitute reasonable articulable suspicion are spelled out in law. " These matters are addressed in court.

Refusing to show a receipt while carrying out merchandise would be considered reasonable articulable suspicion for loss prevention to detain someone for investigation, and doesn't constitute an infringement of your rights.

You are the one singling yourself out as a suspicious person and possibly a thief by refusing to show a receipt.

I think some of you guys are mixing up reasonable articulable suspicion (required to detain someone) and probable cause (required for an arrest to be made).


A business doesn't have to allow people to carry out merchandise without verifying it has been paid for.
 

Citizen

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jack wrote:
Citizen wrote:
jack wrote:
SNIP Astore can require you to show a receipt for merchandise before leaving a store. Not having a receipt and attempting to leave with merchandiseis in fact reasonable articulable suspicion to detain someone . Once the person steps outside the store it is shoplifting, while inside it is illegal concealment of merchandise (in most States), either way they can detain you.
Cite, please.
If you read my above response I addressed that, " not all situations that constitute reasonable articulable suspicion are spelled out in law. " These matters are addressed in court.

Thank you for suggesting a possible explanation for misunderstanding--reasonable suspicion vs probable cause.

I did see your comment about the matter beingdecided by courts. I've come across a number of court opinions wherea court said a court would have to makethe determination of whether reasonable suspicion existed for the stop or detention.

The statements for whichI amrequesting a cite are declarations. A citationis not limited to a statute.One can cite a court opinion.


  1. [align=left]Are you aware of a court case where the court said a store can require a customer to show a receipt?[/align]

  2. [align=left]Are you aware of a court case where a court said loss-prevention can detain someone for refusing to show a receipt?[/align]


  3. [align=left]Are you aware of a court case where a court said refusing to show a receipt was reasonable suspicion ofshoplifting?[/align]
Without such citations,or other evidence, I and the rest of the forum must assume you are just giving personal opinion.

It really would be a service to the forum if you had some cites, or made clearthe source of your information.None of us have to obey a personalopinion. None have to obey a store's loss prevention policies (with some exceptions.) All of usaresubjectto the law, including case law. Gosh, if you know of some, would you mind telling the rest of us so we can avoid running afoul of it.
 
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