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Thread: Va Beach police officer forced to shoot armed man

  1. #1
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    http://hamptonroads.com/2008/02/virg...oots-armed-man

    By Jim Washington
    The Virginian-Pilot
    © February 27, 2008
    VIRGINIA BEACH

    A city police officer shot a man armed with a handgun late lastnight and police were still working on learning the man's identity this morning, they said. The man died at the scene.

    Theshooting happened about 11:15 p.m. around the Indian River shopping centerat the intersection of Indian River Road and MacDonald Road, according to police.

    The officer spotted the man near a 7-11 convenience store, police said. The officerconfronted the man and was forced to shoot, according to police. The man died in theshopping center parking lot, in the city of Chesapeake.

    Theshopping center ison the Chesapeake/Virginia Beach border, and both departments were investigating early Wednesday morning.

    No other details were available.

    -----------------------

    Interesting. The officer confronted the man and the next thing you know, the armed man is shot. Many important details were left out apparently, however it would be nice to know EXACTLY what happened.

    When they say he was armed, do they mean "gun in holster" armed? Or brandishing armed? Who knows. I'm just trying NOT to do what this guy did to get shot.

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    Damn. I'd like to know the rest of that story too. OF course without any other witnesses or video it's the cop's word. I wonder if any security cameras got it on tape. Does that 7-11 have gas pumps? They sometimeshave cameras on the pump area.

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    The story is vague...

    "The officer spotted the man near a 7-11 convenience store, police said. The officerconfronted the man and was forced to shoot, according to police. "

    "police were still working on learning the man's identity this morning"

    It appears that the officer observed a person openly carrying a handgun. No idea if the guy was holding it in his hand or if it was holstered.

    Perhaps the officer attempted to stop someone OCing who knew he was legal to do so and refused to comply with the officer's commands. The officer may have believed some criminal act was about to take place at the 7-11 so late in the evening.

    Could he have also been following the sterile carry option that is often times posted here?

    I look forward to getting more details.


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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    SNIP:

    The story is vague
    ...

    It appears that the officer observed a person openly carrying a handgun.

    No idea if the guy was holding it in his hand or if it was holstered.

    OC'ing would be (legal), the other would be brandishing (illegal).

    Factsare needed and there doesn't appear to be any at this time.

    It would also be interesting to know if the Officer was in uniform or Under cover/Off Duty(the clock).

    I hope it wasn't that theinjured/dead persondid something that the officer thought was a threat but wasn't.

    It is possible that the officer happened onto a robbery or attempted armed robberyin progress.

    EDIT:
    There isn't anything wrong with sterile carry, a DL/ID isn't required to walk the streets in VA with or without a gun.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    It appears that the officer observed a person openly carrying a handgun. No idea if the guy was holding it in his hand or if it was holstered.
    FWIW ... I like to use the phrase "openly carrying" ONLY when we are refering to a properly holstered or secured firearm. If the firearm was in his hand then I would call it "brandishing".



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    It's too early to make conjectures from what was written. Lets get more facts before we start pointing the fingers.

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    jpierce wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    It appears that the officer observed a person openly carrying a handgun. No idea if the guy was holding it in his hand or if it was holstered.
    FWIW ... I like to use the phrase "openly carrying" ONLY when we are refering to a properly holstered or secured firearm. If the firearm was in his hand then I would call it "brandishing".
    I would agree...

    When the media reports "armed with a handgun" itcould mean OC or brandishing since it can describe both situations.

    I did in some way... it wasout in theopen and visible to the officer. I only expounded that we have no idea if it was in his hand.. ie Brandishing.

    We have to wait for more details. I sure hope it was not a simple OC guy shopping.

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    Agent19 wrote:
    OC'ing would be (legal), the other would be brandishing (illegal).

    Factsare needed and there doesn't appear to be any at this time.

    It would also be interesting to know if the Officer was in uniform or Under cover/Off Duty(the clock).

    I hope it wasn't that theinjured/dead persondid something that the officer thought was a threat but wasn't.

    It is possible that the officer happened onto a robbery or attempted armed robberyin progress.

    EDIT:
    There isn't anything wrong with sterile carry, a DL/ID isn't required to walk the streets in VA with or without a gun.
    True....

    In regards to steril carry..... They are still trying to identify this guy. Until someone reports him missing..... :?

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Even if I am sterile carrying, I still have my cell phone on me at all times. It would be easy enought to I.D. someone from thier cell phone.

    I guess this guy didn't have ID or a phone on him.

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    True... look for "HOME" or "ICE"

    ICE = "In Case of Emergency"

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    UPDATED! http://hamptonroads.com/2008/02/virg...oots-armed-man

    Man killed by Beach police suspected in pizzeria robbery
    By Duane Bourne
    The Virginian-Pilot
    © February 27, 2008 VIRGINIA BEACH

    A man who was shot and killed by a Beach police officer Tuesday night after allegedly pulling a gun is suspected of having robbed a pizza store moments earlier.

    Police identified the man as Johnathan Stephen Garrett, 18, of the 1100 block of Sparrow Road in Chesapeake.

    The Fourth Precinct officer, who was not identified, was placed on paid administrative duty pending criminal and internal investigations.

    Authorities said the officer was not responding to the robbery call when he approached the man behind a convenience store about 11:15 p.m. Tuesday. The officer, who was on routine patrol, reportedly noticed a suspicious man standing in the alley behind a 7-Eleven store in the 6600 block of Indian River Road.

    Authorities said the officer approached the man and asked him for identification. The man could not provide identification, authorities said, and during the encounter with the officer, he pulled a handgun.

    Adam Bernstein, a police spokesman, said that the officer was forced to fire a weapon and hit the man at least once.

    The wounded man ran across MacDonald Road, and into the shopping center parking lot in the city of Chesapeake, where he stumbled to the ground.

    The officer tried to save the man while calling for backup units. Emergency personnel continued resuscitative efforts, but the man was pronounced dead at the scene.

    Bernstein said he could not provide further details into the officer-involved shooting, but stated that investigators were looking into the possibility that the man was involved in a pizzeria robbery moments before he was spotted behind the convenience store.

    Commonwealth’s Attorney Harvey Bryant, whose office is investigating whether the officer was justified in using deadly force, confirmed that the man who was killed is believed to have robbed a Chanello’s Pizza.

    He said police recovered a gun and evidence of that robbery at the scene.
    A manager at Chanello’s Pizza, just down the block from where the man was shot, said the pizza store was robbed at about 11 p.m.

    The shooting was the second time that an officer, faced with the decision to use deadly force, killeda reportedly armed suspect in the city in four months.

    In November, police tried to pull over Robert Hudson near Newtown and Baker roads for a traffic violation. Hudson refused to stop, and later ran through a condominium complex, where he pulled out a gun. He was shot when officers struggled to disarm him.

    The investigation into whether Tuesday’s shooting was warranted could take months, Bryant said.

    Duane Bourne, (757) 222-5150, duane.bourne@pilotonline.com

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  12. #12
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    Now that the details are out, it's all good.

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    Sounds like a good shoot. It astounds me how some people will attempt to shoot it out with the police. Just stick the gun in your mouth and pull the trigger. End result is the same, at least the right guy died this time. One less moron that my family has to worry about.

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    jpierce wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    It appears that the officer observed a person openly carrying a handgun. No idea if the guy was holding it in his hand or if it was holstered.
    FWIW ... I like to use the phrase "openly carrying" ONLY when we are refering to a properly holstered or secured firearm. If the firearm was in his hand then I would call it "brandishing".


    "Openly carrying" , yep that pretty accurately describes what we do, so why do we need terms like sterile carry. Since simply open carrying a firearm doesn't constitute reasonable articulable suspicion for the police to detain a person, why sterile carry ?

    Why not just say, "officer as a matter of law according to THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT carrying a firearm doesn't create reasonable articulable suspicion. I'm I being detained , and on what R.A.S. ? "

    "Yes I have ID, but I'm not required to produce it as there in no stop and identify law in this State (check individual State law)and you don't even have R.A.S.to detain me."

    "I would like to be on my way nowand about my business without further impingement of my Constitutional Rights."

    "If you continue to illegally detain me I will have no other choice but to file a complaint with your department, The State Attorney General's office, and the Coordination and review section of the Civil Rights Division, U.S.department of Justice.

    This has worked well for me three times now.

    In the case of this man shot in Virginia Beach, being in an alley behind a 7/11 would be reasonable articulable suspicion.


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    rchjr wrote:
    Sounds like a good shoot. It astounds me how some people will attempt to shoot it out with the police. Just stick the gun in your mouth and pull the trigger. End result is the same, at least the right guy died this time. One less moron that my family has to worry about.
    When you have nothing to lose...might as well take a chance soyou can escape. :?

    You know the family will now sue the department for wrongful death. I am waiting to the phrase.. "The cops planted that evidence" and... they had no justifiable reason to ask him for anything. He was not breaking any laws.

    But one point of interest is this..... even if we can see from the facts that the shooting was pretty much justified.. the officer is on leave and loses his badge and gun until the investigation is complete in a few months.

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    danbus wrote:
    Now that the details are out, it's all good.
    Talk about dumb crook news. The pizza joint he robbed was "down the block"?

    When I was in kindergarten I learned three lessons. Don't do bad things in your own neighborhood, if someone catches you in the act don't head straight home, or even in the direction of home, and don't stick around to be caught once you've done something you're not supposed to do.



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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    rchjr wrote:
    Sounds like a good shoot. It astounds me how some people will attempt to shoot it out with the police. Just stick the gun in your mouth and pull the trigger. End result is the same, at least the right guy died this time. One less moron that my family has to worry about.
    When you have nothing to lose...might as well take a chance soyou can escape. :?

    You know the family will now sue the department for wrongful death. I am waiting to the phrase.. "The cops planted that evidence" and... they had no justifiable reason to ask him for anything. He was not breaking any laws.

    But one point of interest is this..... even if we can see from the facts that the shooting was pretty much justified.. the officer is on leave and loses his badge and gun until the investigation is complete in a few months.
    In other words, paid vacation .

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    I thought SOP to come off the road. Used to be some type of desk job was found until the ruling. Some localities even replaced your service weapon with another. It been a few years since I was on the road.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    OK, what is sterile carry? Is that like shooting blanks? The gun works but you got no bullets :^)?

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    LEO229,Will he be able to carry his own gun for defense or will rules disarm him completely? I hope it is not the latter of the two.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    rchjr wrote:
    I thought SOP to come off the road. Used to be some type of desk job was found until the ruling. Some localities even replaced your service weapon with another. It been a few years since I was on the road.
    Yea, you're right. I misread the story. It says "paid administrative duty", I thought it said "leave".

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    casullshooter wrote:
    LEO229,Will he be able to carry his own gun for defense or will rules disarm him completely? I hope it is not the latter of the two.
    Depends on the department policy.

    Some forbid you from packing anything but what they allow andno badge means you cannot CC unless you haveyour ownpermit.

    Some departments state you CANNOT OC!

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    jpierce wrote:
    SNIP FWIW ... I like to use the phrase "openly carrying" ONLY when we are refering to a properly holstered or secured firearm. If the firearm was in his hand then I would call it "brandishing".

    Not contradicting the founder. Just elaborating; adding to the picture.

    This from the dissent in Christian vs Commonwealth, 2000, Record #0558-98-1:

    ...Moreover, it is not illegal in Virginia to carry a gun if one is lawfully permitted to do so and if the gun is not held in a reckless or threatening manner...

    ...However, carrying an openly displayed firearm in public is not illegal in Virginia. Indeed, if a person desires to transport a firearm...the firearm must be openly displayed.

    The entire opinion is an interesting read. It gives good insight into how 4th Amendment case law is determined, including the room for differing opinions. I very much recommend reading it.

    http://tinyurl.com/27ygmn

    So, essentially, if you don't have a CHP, the only way the handgun can be carried is openly. And if you don't have a holster, like Mr. Christian, the only way you can carry it is openly in your hand.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    casullshooter wrote:
    LEO229,Will he be able to carry his own gun for defense or will rules disarm him completely? I hope it is not the latter of the two.
    Depends on the department policy.

    Some forbid you from packing anything but what they allow andno badge means you cannot CC unless you haveyour ownpermit.

    Some departments state you CANNOT OC!
    I can understand them forcing you to use the issued weapon while on duty, but how can they enforce that while you are on your own time? I guess it's the same as how the US Military restricts it's personnel.

    Man you guys have it rough! You got a job where automatically people dislike you, pay isn't what it should be (IMO), and you're held to a different standard (But I'm sure that some of the perks you enjoy are nice)...

    As far as the dead perp, another scumbag off the street...

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    OK, what is sterile carry? Is that like shooting blanks? The gun works but you got no bullets :^)?
    "Sterile Carry" is when one open carries without identification on their person. Obviously you would only want to do this if your state does not require you to carry identification with your firearm.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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