Va Beach police officer forced to shoot armed man

imported post

rchjr wrote:

I thought SOP to come off the road. Used to be some type of desk job was found until the ruling. Some localities even replaced your service weapon with another. It been a few years since I was on the road.

Click to expand...

Yea, you're right. I misread the story. It says "paid administrative duty", I thought it said "leave".

imported post

casullshooter wrote:

LEO229,Will he be able to carry his own gun for defense or will rules disarm him completely? I hope it is not the latter of the two.

Click to expand...

Depends on the department policy.

Some forbid you from packing anything but what they allow andno badge means you cannot CC unless you haveyour ownpermit.

Some departments state you CANNOT OC!

imported post

jpierce wrote:

SNIP FWIW ... I like to use the phrase "openly carrying" ONLY when we are refering to a properly holstered or secured firearm. If the firearm was in his hand then I would call it "brandishing".

Click to expand...

Not contradicting the founder. Just elaborating; adding to the picture.

This from the dissent in Christian vs Commonwealth, 2000, Record #0558-98-1:

...Moreover, it is not illegal in Virginia to carry a gun if one is lawfully permitted to do so and if the gun is not held in a reckless or threatening manner...

...However, carrying an openly displayed firearm in public is not illegal in Virginia. Indeed, if a person desires to transport a firearm...the firearm must be openly displayed.

The entire opinion is an interesting read. It gives good insight into how 4th Amendment case law is determined, including the room for differing opinions. I very much recommend reading it.

http://tinyurl.com/27ygmn

So, essentially, if you don't have a CHP, the only way the handgun can be carried is openly. And if you don't have a holster, like Mr. Christian, the only way you can carry it is openly in your hand.

imported post

LEO 229 wrote:

casullshooter wrote:

LEO229,Will he be able to carry his own gun for defense or will rules disarm him completely? I hope it is not the latter of the two.

Click to expand...

Depends on the department policy.

Some forbid you from packing anything but what they allow andno badge means you cannot CC unless you haveyour ownpermit.

Some departments state you CANNOT OC!

Click to expand...

I can understand them forcing you to use the issued weapon while on duty, but how can they enforce that while you are on your own time? I guess it's the same as how the US Military restricts it's personnel.

Man you guys have it rough! You got a job where automatically people dislike you, pay isn't what it should be (IMO), and you're held to a different standard (But I'm sure that some of the perks you enjoy are nice)... :lol:

As far as the dead perp, another scumbag off the street...

imported post

Neplusultra wrote:

OK, what is sterile carry? Is that like shooting blanks? The gun works but you got no bullets :^)?

Click to expand...

"Sterile Carry" is when one open carries without identification on their person. Obviously you would only want to do this if your state does not require you to carry identification with your firearm.

imported post

eyesopened wrote:

I can understand them forcing you to use the issued weapon while on duty, but how can they enforce that while you are on your own time? I guess it's the same as how the US Military restricts it's personnel.

Man you guys have it rough! You got a job where automatically people dislike you, pay isn't what it should be (IMO), and you're held to a different standard (But I'm sure that some of the perks you enjoy are nice)... :lol:

As far as the dead perp, another scumbag off the street...

Click to expand...

Do not forget that our conduct off duty can get us fired or suspended, and people shoot at you when all you do is show up.

I am going to guess that this guy is never going to rob another business or pull a gun on a cop.

imported post

eyesopened wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

casullshooter wrote:

LEO229,Will he be able to carry his own gun for defense or will rules disarm him completely? I hope it is not the latter of the two.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Depends on the department policy.

Some forbid you from packing anything but what they allow andno badge means you cannot CC unless you haveyour ownpermit.

Some departments state you CANNOT OC!

Click to expand...

I can understand them forcing you to use the issued weapon while on duty, but how can they enforce that while you are on your own time? I guess it's the same as how the US Military restricts it's personnel.

Man you guys have it rough! You got a job where automatically people dislike you, pay isn't what it should be (IMO), and you're held to a different standard (But I'm sure that some of the perks you enjoy are nice)... :lol:

As far as the dead perp, another scumbag off the street...


The reason is that the officers fall under their respective department's liability if they carry under color of law even while off duty. If you don't want to be subject to department liability while off duty then go get a concealed permit and follow the CCW laws that everyone other than LE has to follow. Many LE departments frown upon the practice of getting a CCW for the purpose of averting department policy. I do know officers who have CCW's just so that they can get around the one gun a month law and/or NICS checks but that is the only reason they have the CCW permit. Other than that, some have them have permits because they already had their CCW before they became sworn personnel.

Click to expand...

imported post

Neplusultra wrote:

OK, what is sterile carry?

Click to expand...

OC w/o ID.

imported post

Why the two standards between this thread and the Chespeake "home invasion vs tactical entry" thread? Seems that we are eager to believe the reports of the police as reported in this story, but not as quick to accept police statements in the other thread. Perhaps we just haven't heard from the "doubters" yet.

I am certainly glad the officer made it out of this encounter alive (having seen those officer involved shootings on Most Shocking Video), but with all the conspiracy theories about police behavior that I read in these forums, I would have thought there would be the same wait and see approach to the investigation.

imported post

TraumaRN wrote:

Why the two standards between this thread and the Chespeake "home invasion vs tactical entry" thread? Seems that we are eager to believe the reports of the police as reported in this story, but not as quick to accept police statements in the other thread. Perhaps we just haven't heard from the "doubters" yet.

I am certainly glad the officer made it out of this encounter alive (having seen those officer involved shootings on Most Shocking Video), but with all the conspiracy theories about police behavior that I read in these forums, I would have thought there would be the same wait and see approach to the investigation.

Click to expand...

I think the difference in the response to the two incidents is based primarily on the venue.

Many of us see no-knock and night-time warrant execution based upon information from a confidential informant (who is often-times a criminal himself and working toward a plea) to be the worst nightmare of the law-abiding citizen.

Couple this with the recent tendency of criminals to yell "Police" when forcefully entering an occupied dwelling and you have a scenario in which you or I cannot hope to win.

If we open fire and it is a LEO executing a warrant based upon bad intel or an incorrect address, then we are in deep legal trouble. If we hesitate and a criminal gains access to our family, then we are in Hell.

In short ... Lose - Lose.

This understanding, which some have trouble articulating, expresses itself in the anger that was shown in the other thread and appeared aimed at the officers involved. In reality, the officers are as much victims of the system as homeowners are and we need to change the laws which allow such raids to occur rather than railing against officers.

imported post

jpierce wrote:

......In reality, the officers are as much victims of the system as homeowners are and we need to change the laws which allow such raids to occur rather than railing against officers.

Click to expand...

In addition we need to think through and adjust the way we react to a forced entry to our home since bad guys have taken to yelling "Police" when they invade your home.

We may chose to wait with 12 gauge ready until we see who it is. This could be deadly for us and ours.

We may try to get a clear sight on them through a window to make sure. Then allow entry keeping them covered.

What ever we do has a great chance to be the wrong thing.

This fear has caused some of us to get carried away and forget all that we have in common.

There is just a big difference between our home and the ally behind the 7-11.

imported post

Honestly, I think it really comes down to a training issue and being able to determine when to shoot and when not to shoot. That cannot be done by shooting blindly through doors without visually identifying the threat which is what was done in the Frederick case. Even if it is LE coming through your door, you must identify the target prior to shooting. If its LE, you identify them, you don't fire, you follow their instructions and go from there. If you do that and in the end its determined they had the wrong house, etc, so be it but everyone goes home alive and we don't have anymore tragedies to contend with. The only way to do this is by undertaking serious training. You must be trained to know your target. Its basic gun safety. If you train enough, target identification is not an issue because you've seen the situation prior to being in it. The chances of you making a mistake becomes much less. However, there is always the chance Mr Murphy could show up. Thats why you do your best to train so that mistakes are minimized. Owning and using a firearm is a huge responsibility and it shouldn't be taken lightly. Defensive situations have to be evaluated as they take place. If your mental game is off, you will probably find yourself either dead or in jail because of something you did that you weren't supposed to do. Its called doing the right thing folks.

imported post

LRS76251 wrote:

Honestly, I think it really comes down to a training issue and being able to determine when to shoot and when not to shoot.

Click to expand...

+1

imported post

I just registered so that I could post a compliment to all of those who have contributed to this discussion thread. This is an outstanding conversation among intelligent, reasonable people and I am pleased to see it. I echo the comments about owning and carrying firearms being a tremendous responsibility and those who don't take it seriously are dangerous to us all just as most police officers are dedicated public servents with a dangerous and difficult jobs but the few bad ones make life harder for the overwhelming majority of good ones. Discussions such as this one demonstrate that those of us who enjoy shooting sports, believe in responsible firearm ownership and exercise our rights and priviledges under the law to protect ourselves and our loved ones are not "gun nuts".

Nice work.

imported post

802_Esq. wrote:

SNIP This is an outstanding conversation among intelligent, reasonable people and I am pleased to see it.

Click to expand...

Welcome to OCDO!!

(chuckle) Wait 'til you see them disagreeing.

imported post

802_Esq. wrote:

I just registered so that I could post a compliment to all of those who have contributed to this discussion thread.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words and welcome aboard!

May I assume, based upon your user name, that you are an attorney?

imported post

Yes. I am an attorney admitted to practice in both Massachusetts and Vermont (talk about very different legal and political environments for firearms ownership).

Debate among reasonable people willing to consider different viewpoints honestly and respectfully, is critical to the healthy evolution of law and policy.

imported post

LRS76251 wrote:

Honestly, I think it really comes down to a training issue and being able to determine when to shoot and when not to shoot. That cannot be done by shooting blindly through doors without visually identifying the threat which is what was done in the Frederick case. ... snipped

Click to expand...

This is what I said before.

ANYONE with a firearm MUST know and identify their target!!!!

You simply CANNOT shoot blindly at someone behind a door.

One of the cardinal rules of safety is to know your target and what is beyond.

But I think people are more willing to accept this event is because it did not happen in the home of a citizen. It was in a dark alley and both people could identify the other. One a uniformed cop and the other an armed citizen.

imported post

Neplusultra wrote:

OK, what is sterile carry? Is that like shooting blanks? The gun works but you got no bullets :^)?

Click to expand...

Sterile open carry is open carry of firearms without the possession of any identification documents such as a drivers license.

The idea is that bearing arms is a right and that citizens need not carry identification documents to exercise their rights.

Sowhen stopped by a LEO who asks or demands identification you can respond that you do not have any identification. This idea was in response to police harassment of OCers.

imported post

LEO 229 wrote:

You simply CANNOT shoot blindly at someone behind a door.

Click to expand...

Really? It worked for Lon Horiuchi. :shock: