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Thread: Man beaten, robbed while eating at mall

  1. #1
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    Manassas Mall, according to VCDL, has a no weapons policy. Could this have been averted had the victim or another patron been armed?

    An 18-year-old Manassas-area man was beaten while eating a meal at Manassas Mall around 7:20 p.m. Monday, said Sharon Richardson, Prince William police spokeswoman.

    According to police, two boys had followed the man while he was shopping at the mall in the 8300 block of Sudley Road near Manassas and asking him what he was doing.

    Police said the man ignored them and went to buy some food, when apparently the boys returned with two older men.

    They beat the man, Richardson said, and stole his wallet and cell phone.

    Police said the victim was able to escape his attackers.

    The two boys who followed the man were described as black and between 14 and 17 years old. One was about 5 feet 10 inches tall and 140 pounds; the other was approximately 5 feet 10 inches tall and 150 pounds, police said.

    The two older men were described as black, between 30 and 40 years old. One was about 5 feet 11 inches tall and 190 pounds; the other was about 5 feet 9 inches tall with a medium build, police said.
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    Where were the mall commandos at? Surprised no one in the eatery called police. Well, no I'm not surprised.

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    While you did not imply firearm usage would be appropriate, I think it's important to point out that in this case it wouldn't be. The attackers did not produce a deadly weapon, and therefore the victim, had he used a firearm to defend himself would be in a heap of trouble.

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    I don't know Naked, four on one? Might be a fine line there.

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    So, in your opinion, confronted with four assailants is not justification to use a weapon? I think you need to re-look at the rules. All I need is fear for my life and I can (and will) fire.

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    I disagree. The fact that there were 4 of them implies a significant disparity of force. Four men, even unarmed, could easily represent a threat of serious bodily harm/death to one man. A reasonable person could be justified in using deadly force to prevent such harm.

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    While you did not imply firearm usage would be appropriate, I think it's important to point out that in this case it wouldn't be. The attackers did not produce a deadly weapon, and therefore the victim, had he used a firearm to defend himself would be in a heap of trouble.
    4 on 1. Hard to argue there's no, or little, disparity of force. Plus, how does one know one or all of them are not armed too?

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    I say once you get checked out at the hospital let your lawyer do the talking if the police have a problem with the use of deadly force. I would take a few blows though just for the jury's sake in case it goes to trial.

    A goodto mediocrelawyer is a cure- all for just about anything so long as you keep your mouth shut and don't let an overzealous police officer or commonwealth's attorney use anything you say to incriminate you.
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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    I think we all havemissed the obvious. A guy that pulls a firearm out on 4 attackers doesn't get attacked. The attackers don't get shot. The police take the report and everyone goes home.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
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    Campaign Veteran Nelson_Muntz's Avatar
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    I think I would have hit them with some oc spray and effect my escape.

    I OC on the property (parking lot) of Manassas Mall when I go to shop at the Target store. Target is gun friendly, and in that location does have a barrier gate to seperate it off from the rest of the mall. As far as I'm concerned I'm not OC'ing at the mall, just in Target. On the very small off chance I need to shop in another store within that almost dead illegal immigrant and gang member hangout, I'll just conceal.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    Snip...I would take a few blows though just for the jury's sake in case it goes to trial...Snip
    Allowingan assailant get in a "few blows" is just like allowing an assailaint to get of a "few rounds" and is essentially allowing the possibility of being killed.

    1. Brass Knuckles, pipe, brick, or other blunt object

    2. Unseen Knife or gun.

    3. Lucky or expertly placed punch that either knocks you unconscious or kills you outright.

    There are no Marquis of Queensbury rules.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Nelson_Muntz wrote:
    I think I would have hit them with some oc spray and effect my escape.
    I would have hit them with the spray from my O.C., if they didn't run away soiling themselves when it cleared the holster.

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    While most who replied to nakedshoplifter with the "disparity of force" argument, I would like to point out something about this.

    First off, most definitely a 4-on-1 scenario would represent a disparity of force under most conditions and circumstances. And therein lies the twist. There are a host of variables regarding disparity of force and rightly so since it would be next to impossible to cast this concept in stone (i.e. there must be at least a 3-to-1 disparity with combined weights of at least a 3:1 ratio and ages within.... you get the idea).

    For example, most would agree that a man-on-woman scenario would satisfy a disparity of force (most of the time) because men are stronger and larger than women. But what about a man-on-man situation? Before you answer, "no way" suppose the attacker was 21 and the victim was 73? Or the victim was 44 with a bad back and racked legs?

    You see, variables in this area are indeed both important considerations and viable deciding factors as to whether or not deadly force is justifiable. There is no cut and dried acid test for this other than did the victim believe himself to be in imminent danger.

    I am not in a position to attempt to take on 4 males bent on beating on my body and expect to come out unscathed and the victor. I am not that foolish or crazy. Condition yellow would have put me in a state of mind to be ready to pull my weapon and end any ideas of sending me to the hospital.. or worse. I think the Virginia legal system (Prince William County) would be on my side. Besides, I would wager the perps would be doing a 180 as soon as they witnessed the business end of my "little friend".

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    The attackers did not produce a deadly weapon, and therefore the victim, had he used a firearm to defend himself would be in a heap of trouble.
    The standard in most states is that if a reasonable person would be in fear of serious injury or death then deadly force may be used in self defense. Given the four on one odds, I think you'd have to be crazy not to have such fear.

    In some states (including UT, not sure about VA) there is an additional justification: You are allowed to use deadly force to prevent the commission of a forcible felony, which includes robbery.

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    It hasn't been more than a few weeks since Keith Washington was indicted for shooting those two movers. The two movers combined weight was 600lbs compared to his weight of 155lbs. His claim was that he was jumped by the movers in his home and he shot in self defense. One mover was killed, the other injured and later testified against Washington. Pictures taken of him a few hours of the altercation showed no bruising/cuts/etc. His 911 call was played and used against him. I guess he was voice was "too calm" after being involved in a struggle with two men and shooting them both. His case was tried in MD, but it didn't look like the courts sided with his self defense claims. There probably is more to the story but who knows...



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    While I respect everyone's point of view concerning this topic, I still must disagree about the legality of killing 4 unarmed persons who are merely giving someone an asswhoopin'. Could they kill you? Yes! Would I prefer to shoot all of them if I was in the victims shoes? Yes!

    But, I feel after the fact... while you're sitting in jail andthings are being evaluated in the District Attorney's office...the factyou blew away 4 unarmed thugs who merely wanted your cellphone and wallet would not be looked upon kindly. Couple an anti-self defense DA (ala Mike Nifong) with any incriminating statements you made at the scene or while in custody and you're screwed. The cops are very good at making you think they are on your side in these situations in order to get you to open up and talk.

    There is a saying "when all you carry is a hammer everything looks like a nail". Everyone commenting is saying they think it would be justified to use the "hammer" when in all likelihood another tool would have been a better fit. I don't personally carry OC spray on my person, but going along with the "right tool for the job" line of thinking, this situation could have been handled effectively, safely, and legally by hosing down the attackers with OC spreay while in the process of retreating. And not being aware that you are about to be attacked is not a good excuse. While the rest of the public may walk around in "condition white", not many of us in the OC crowd do. Speaking of open carry, if this mall allowed OC I doubt the four men would have assaulted the victim knowing he had the means to defend himself.

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    I am a former Virginia Deputy Sheriff and an 18 year US Army Special Forces veteran and weigh 230 lbs. If I were attacked by 4 men, I would draw on them immediately. Even with my size and background there is a clear disparity of force issue.

    Isn't Manassas Mall a posted, "Gun Free" area? If it is, the victim could file a suit under tort law against the mall for failure to protect him from a potentially lethal attack and for denying him the means to defend himself from said attack. Can anyone ID the victim?
    Bitka Sve Reava!
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    While I respect everyone's point of view concerning this topic, I still must disagree about the legality of killing 4 unarmed persons who are merely giving someone an asswhoopin'. Could they kill you? Yes! Would I prefer to shoot all of them if I was in the victims shoes? Yes!

    But, I feel after the fact... while you're sitting in jail andthings are being evaluated in the District Attorney's office...the factyou blew away 4 unarmed thugs who merely wanted your cellphone and wallet would not be looked upon kindly. Couple an anti-self defense DA (ala Mike Nifong) with any incriminating statements you made at the scene or while in custody and you're screwed. The cops are very good at making you think they are on your side in these situations in order to get you to open up and talk.

    There is a saying "when all you carry is a hammer everything looks like a nail". Everyone commenting is saying they think it would be justified to use the "hammer" when in all likelihood another tool would have been a better fit. I don't personally carry OC spray on my person, but going along with the "right tool for the job" line of thinking, this situation could have been handled effectively, safely, and legally by hosing down the attackers with OC spreay while in the process of retreating. And not being aware that you are about to be attacked is not a good excuse. While the rest of the public may walk around in "condition white", not many of us in the OC crowd do. Speaking of open carry, if this mall allowed OC I doubt the four men would have assaulted the victim knowing he had the means to defend himself.
    While you certainly present your argument eloquently and with a measure of style, I must remain in disagreement with your stand. I wrote about variables in disparity of force situations. How might you feel if the victim was a partial invalid? Or while not handicapped in any way, perhaps 67 years old?

    I might also mention that I don't think anyone wrote about killing 4 unarmed people. And even if they did, with a disparity of 4 to 1, whether or not they are armed is not a consideration. Granted it would make it that much worse, but eight fists and eight feet can deliver a crushing amount of blows in a matter of seconds.

    I would also this. Being attacked by even two males who are of a mind to put a hurt on you is not something to take lightly. That only works on TV and in the movies. Even someone well versed in the physical arts will be tested by multiple assailants. Make that count jump up to 4 and you are a candidate for a world of hurt in a very short period of time.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    I've been lurking a long time but this is my first time posting.

    I don't think killing anyone would be necessary. Simply drawing your gun would likely resolve the issue without you being hurt or maimed. I also think if you were carrying you would have to draw your gun or those punks would have made off with more than just a wallet and cell phone.

    I worked with a guy several years ago who had lost an eye after being jumped by some thugs using their bare fists. I have no desire to go down that road. I think I could live with removing a scum bag from our gene pool before loosing my eye.

    I have to agree with the others, I would not hesitate to draw my gun in that situation.

    I'm also curious if the Manassas mall is a gun free zone. I never enter that place without concealed carrying.

  20. #20
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    Besides, you'd only have to shoot one and the rest would leave him behind in a hurry.

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    It probably would not have gotten that far. Thugs aren’t known for being the most courageous when the odds fall out of their favor.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran Nelson_Muntz's Avatar
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    I think I read somewhere that Manassas Mall was posted, I believe it was on the VCDL website. However, I think it is only posted on one door. I've CC there before and of the two different doors I went in it was not posted. In addition, if entering through a big box entrance, they also are not posted.

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    Thanks Nelson! I always enter near the Target and I have yet to see a sign.

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    Richie wrote:
    I'm also curious if the Manassas mall is a gun free zone. I never enter that place without concealed carrying.
    It is a "weapon free zone"

    http://www.manassasmall.com/security.asp

  25. #25
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    Take a close look at the Manassas Mallrules, "The commission of any act defined by law as a criminal act is prohibited such as: theft, carrying weapons, graffiti, property damage, etc." When I am legally carrying a weapon either CC or Open Carry I am not in violation of a criminal act,maybe we can carry now.

    ****************************

    Manassas Mall Courtesy Code
    Juvenile groups of four or more will be dispersed.
    Customers must keep moving in an orderly fashion through the premises and not block walkways or store entrances.
    Loud behavior and the playing of any audio device will not be permitted.
    Obscene or offensive language will not be permitted.
    Spitting, sitting on the planters, vandalism or any unacceptable conduct on the premises will be grounds for ejection.
    When conditions contribute to an overflow of juveniles, management reserves the right to disperse or eject individuals or groups.
    Proper clothing, including shoes and shirts, is required.
    Clothing with inappropriate words, phrases or graphics in not permitted and is subject to mall management discretion.
    Picketing, demonstration, distributing handbills, soliciting and petitioning require prior written consent of mall management.
    The commission of any act defined by law as a criminal act is prohibited such as: theft, carrying weapons, graffiti, property damage, etc.


    The above Courtesy Code will be in effect at all times for all guests and visitors of the Manassas Mall. Anyone who violates any of the above rules of the shopping center shall be asked to leave. If the violator returns to the shopping center uninvited or again violates any of the above rules and regulations, said violator will be banned from the shopping center and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Mall Management has the right to amend this Courtesy Code at any time.

    *****************************
    'Till the last landings made, and we stand unafraid, on a shore not mortal has seen,
    'Till the last bugle call, sounds taps for us all,
    It's Semper Fidelis, MARINE!

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