Man beaten, robbed while eating at mall

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It probably would not have gotten that far. Thugs aren’t known for being the most courageous when the odds fall out of their favor.

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I think I read somewhere that Manassas Mall was posted, I believe it was on the VCDL website. However, I think it is only posted on one door. I've CC there before and of the two different doors I went in it was not posted. In addition, if entering through a big box entrance, they also are not posted.

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Thanks Nelson! I always enter near the Target and I have yet to see a sign.

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Richie wrote:

I'm also curious if the Manassas mall is a gun free zone. I never enter that place without concealed carrying.

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It is a "weapon free zone"

http://www.manassasmall.com/security.asp

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Take a close look at the Manassas Mallrules, "The commission of any act defined by law as a criminal act is prohibited such as: theft, carrying weapons, graffiti, property damage, etc." When I am legally carrying a weapon either CC or Open Carry I am not in violation of a criminal act,maybe we can carry now.

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[align=justify]Manassas Mall Courtesy Code [/align]• Juvenile groups of four or more will be dispersed.
• Customers must keep moving in an orderly fashion through the premises and not block walkways or store entrances.
• Loud behavior and the playing of any audio device will not be permitted.
• Obscene or offensive language will not be permitted.
• Spitting, sitting on the planters, vandalism or any unacceptable conduct on the premises will be grounds for ejection.
• When conditions contribute to an overflow of juveniles, management reserves the right to disperse or eject individuals or groups.
• Proper clothing, including shoes and shirts, is required.
• Clothing with inappropriate words, phrases or graphics in not permitted and is subject to mall management discretion.
• Picketing, demonstration, distributing handbills, soliciting and petitioning require prior written consent of mall management.
• The commission of any act defined by law as a criminal act is prohibited such as: theft, carrying weapons, graffiti, property damage, etc.


[align=justify]The above Courtesy Code will be in effect at all times for all guests and visitors of the Manassas Mall. Anyone who violates any of the above rules of the shopping center shall be asked to leave. If the violator returns to the shopping center uninvited or again violates any of the above rules and regulations, said violator will be banned from the shopping center and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Mall Management has the right to amend this Courtesy Code at any time.[/align]
[align=justify]*****************************[/align]

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This is a very tricky situation that beforewe spout too much bravado we need to look at some things. A big argument about the disparity of force deal is that the fellow was beaten up by 4 men and that is not in doubt according to the report. However he did not die and so when you say that shooting them would be justifiable there are going to be plenty of people pointing that out. I realize that as far as we are concerned that should be immaterial but that is going to be used against the "shoot first" argument.

Second you need to think about and every time you get into this type of situation is if he had pulled a gun then what. Most have agreed that they would have run away but what if they had not. Just because you pull a gun does not automatically mean the other person is going to back down. Now you are faced with 4 men staring at you holding a gun daring your to pull the trigger. We now have a standoff and someone is going to flinch. All of a sudden one of them makes a funny move and you shoot. You have now shot an unarmed man in front of three of his buddies. Do you think they jury is going to believe your story? Just remember that all kinds of things happen when you pull a gun out and you may be completely in the right in your mind but things don't always work out. Seldom when a robber comes into a 7-11 is he planning on shooting anyone. Things don't go right. They don't always go right for the good guys either.

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Richie wrote:

I've been lurking a long time but this is my first time posting.

I don't think killing anyone would be necessary. Simply drawing your gun would likely resolve the issue without you being hurt or maimed. I also think if you were carrying you would have to draw your gun or those punks would have made off with more than just a wallet and cell phone.

I worked with a guy several years ago who had lost an eye after being jumped by some thugs using their bare fists. I have no desire to go down that road. I think I could live with removing a scum bag from our gene pool before loosing my eye.

I have to agree with the others, I would not hesitate to draw my gun in that situation.

I'm also curious if the Manassas mall is a gun free zone. I never enter that place without concealed carrying.

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Welcome aboard sir, and good points. I'm quite certain that if some scum roughed you up and in the process of removing your wallet and phone came across a nice handgun, they would quickly turn that into claimed treasure as well.

As for the fellow you mentioned who lost an eye to an attack, I agree with you. There is no way the life of one of those maggots is worth my eye.. or any other part of my body, either. And this is where so many people get screwed up.. including people on this website.

This is rarely said due to the sensitivity of its nature and the knee-jerk reactions it can cause, but there are degrees of importance of human life. Some people are just more important than others and their lives are more valuable. The life of my wife and daughters (and myself) is of far greater significance than that of a criminal, thug, murderer, assailant, or such. I have no shame in saying this and would expect everyone else on this site to be of the same mind. They must be based upon the simple fact that they go armed for just such a situation. Were they not of this mindset, they could never draw a weapon and fire on someone regardless of the reason.

That said, just watch. There goes my standing with some.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

Richie wrote:

I've been lurking a long time but this is my first time posting.

I don't think killing anyone would be necessary. Simply drawing your gun would likely resolve the issue without you being hurt or maimed. I also think if you were carrying you would have to draw your gun or those punks would have made off with more than just a wallet and cell phone.

I worked with a guy several years ago who had lost an eye after being jumped by some thugs using their bare fists. I have no desire to go down that road. I think I could live with removing a scum bag from our gene pool before loosing my eye.

I have to agree with the others, I would not hesitate to draw my gun in that situation.

I'm also curious if the Manassas mall is a gun free zone. I never enter that place without concealed carrying.

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Welcome aboard sir, and good points. I'm quite certain that if some scum roughed you up and in the process of removing your wallet and phone came across a nice handgun, they would quickly turn that into claimed treasure as well.

As for the fellow you mentioned who lost an eye to an attack, I agree with you. There is no way the life of one of those maggots is worth my eye.. or any other part of my body, either. And this is where so many people get screwed up.. including people on this website.

This is rarely said due to the sensitivity of its nature and the knee-jerk reactions it can cause, but there are degrees of importance of human life. Some people are just more important than others and their lives are more valuable. The life of my wife and daughters (and myself) is of far greater significance than that of a criminal, thug, murderer, assailant, or such. I have no shame in saying this and would expect everyone else on this site to be of the same mind. They must be based upon the simple fact that they go armed for just such a situation. Were they not of this mindset, they could never draw a weapon and fire on someone regardless of the reason.

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+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,ad infinitum

You get my point

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streetdoc wrote:

Take a close look at the Manassas Mallrules, "The commission of any act defined by law as a criminal act is prohibited such as: theft, carrying weapons, graffiti, property damage, etc." When I am legally carrying a weapon either CC or Open Carry I am not in violation of a criminal act,maybe we can carry now.

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That is the way I read the rule. I think the rule is a bit vague.

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nakedshoplifter wrote:

While I respect everyone's point of view concerning this topic, I still must disagree about the legality of killing 4 unarmed persons who are merely giving someone an asswhoopin'. Could they kill you? Yes! Would I prefer to shoot all of them if I was in the victims shoes? Yes!

But, I feel after the fact... while you're sitting in jail andthings are being evaluated in the District Attorney's office...the factyou blew away 4 unarmed thugs who merely wanted your cellphone and wallet would not be looked upon kindly. Couple an anti-self defense DA (ala Mike Nifong) with any incriminating statements you made at the scene or while in custody and you're screwed. The cops are very good at making you think they are on your side in these situations in order to get you to open up and talk.

There is a saying "when all you carry is a hammer everything looks like a nail". Everyone commenting is saying they think it would be justified to use the "hammer" when in all likelihood another tool would have been a better fit. I don't personally carry OC spray on my person, but going along with the "right tool for the job" line of thinking, this situation could have been handled effectively, safely, and legally by hosing down the attackers with OC spreay while in the process of retreating. And not being aware that you are about to be attacked is not a good excuse. While the rest of the public may walk around in "condition white", not many of us in the OC crowd do. Speaking of open carry, if this mall allowed OC I doubt the four men would have assaulted the victim knowing he had the means to defend himself.

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So based on your statement, you would only resort to the use of deadly force if the assailant(s) obviously were in possesion of a deadly weapon? Would you have drawn your weapon in this situation?

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Nelson_Muntz wrote:

I think I read somewhere that Manassas Mall was posted, I believe it was on the VCDL website. However, I think it is only posted on one door. I've CC there before and of the two different doors I went in it was not posted. In addition, if entering through a big box entrance, they also are not posted.

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I CC in the mall promenade. However, a few weeks ago I CC'd in Macy's with no problems at all. In either case, I will not enter any mall anywhere around without a sidearm on my person.. generally concealed.

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eyesopened wrote:

Richie wrote:

I'm also curious if the Manassas mall is a gun free zone. I never enter that place without concealed carrying.

Click to expand...

It is a "weapon free zone"

http://www.manassasmall.com/security.asp

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"The commission of any act defined by law as a criminal act is prohibited such as: theft, carrying weapons, graffiti, property damage, etc."

The above is what I just read on the link to their site. Based upon the wording of this sentence, we can, in fact, carry in both modes. Read it. The phrase "carrying weapon" is part of a list of items which are given as examples of their statement, "commission of any act defined by law as a criminal act". Since the legal carrying of a firearm is not a criminal act be definition, we are in the clear.

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Southernboy, thank you for the warm welcome and I am with you 100%

PT111, You make some good points. The situation could get ugly if you were to take a life. You say "However he did not die" well what if he did? We can argue that point all day long. It is a matter of weighting risk versus reward and I choose to be safer then sorry.

If it turned into a stand off I would only hope security would soon be there. I hope none of us have to take a life but if it comes down to them or me I will quickly choose me over a criminal. If they did approach me after my weapon was drawn I would like to think I would hesitate until I absolutely HAD to fire.

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PT111 wrote:

This is a very tricky situation that beforewe spout too much bravado we need to look at some things. A big argument about the disparity of force deal is that the fellow was beaten up by 4 men and that is not in doubt according to the report. However he did not die and so when you say that shooting them would be justifiable there are going to be plenty of people pointing that out. I realize that as far as we are concerned that should be immaterial but that is going to be used against the "shoot first" argument.

Second you need to think about and every time you get into this type of situation is if he had pulled a gun then what. Most have agreed that they would have run away but what if they had not. Just because you pull a gun does not automatically mean the other person is going to back down. Now you are faced with 4 men staring at you holding a gun daring your to pull the trigger. We now have a standoff and someone is going to flinch. All of a sudden one of them makes a funny move and you shoot. You have now shot an unarmed man in front of three of his buddies. Do you think they jury is going to believe your story? Just remember that all kinds of things happen when you pull a gun out and you may be completely in the right in your mind but things don't always work out. Seldom when a robber comes into a 7-11 is he planning on shooting anyone. Things don't go right. They don't always go right for the good guys either.

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Excellent point and something I have agonized over many times. Suppose you pull your weapon and the perps stop. Then one of them says, "MF's got a gun. Ok tough boy.. whatcha gonna do now? Shoot me? MF ain't gonna do nothing." as he is walking towards you.

But still there is the perception of a serious threat to your safety and well being. This is where you need to have already taken two things into consideration. One. If they are armed or present arms as the close on you, pull your weapon and open fire. No warnings, no shouts.. just fire. Two. If they are not armed but still an obvious threat, pull your weapon and shout very loudly, "STOP, GET AWAY FROM ME OR I'LL SHOOT". If they then continue their threatening advance, open fire.

But you still have raised a most important issue in your post.


Gentlemen, this is an excellent thread because it is something that describes a very possible and valid scenario. It's good that we are hashing out opinions and ideas about this.

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Richie wrote:

It probably would not have gotten that far. Thugs aren’t known for being the most courageous when the odds fall out of their favor.

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I see you live in Front Royal. Ever go to Melting Pot Pizza? Their's is, without a doubt, the best pizza I have ever had.

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As far as using deadly force during a robbery and mob assault....

It isa judgment call and you have to be there to decide at that momentifyou believe... they are going to hurt me real badand maybe even kill me or.... they areroughing me upand are taking my stuff.

We know that they did not use any weapons and they did not keep beating him till he blacked out. So we can easily arm chair quarterback and say.. "No deadly force needed"

If I have four guys pounding the crap out of me... I am probably going to take out the bigest threat first and hope the rest run off.

§ 18.2-42. Assault or battery by mob.

Any and every person composing a mob which shall commit a simple assault or battery shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

§ 18.2-95. Grand larceny defined

Any person who

(i) commits larceny from the person of another of money or other thing of value of $5 or more,

(ii) commits simple larceny not from the person of another of goods and chattels of the value of $200 or more, or

(iii) commits simple larceny not from the person of another of any firearm, regardless of the firearm's value,

shall be guilty of grand larceny, punishable by imprisonment in a state correctional facility for not less than one nor more than twenty years or, in the discretion of the jury or court trying the case without a jury, be confined in jail for a period not exceeding twelve months or fined not more than $2,500, either or both. [Felony]


Important note: If you draw you better be ready to fire. This is your chance to shoot before someone else decides deadly force needs to be used against you. I never draw to scare.

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bohdi wrote:

Surprised no one in the eatery called police. Well, no I'm not surprised.

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Who's to say the sheeple didn't stand around and whimper into their cell phones for help? What difference would it have made?

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What ever happened to the day when the people would band together and step forward as one and stop the fight??

Sad how times have changed. It seems that people do not want to get involved any more.

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LEO 229 wrote:

What ever happened to the day when the people would band together and step forward as one and stop the fight??

Sad how times have changed. It seems that people do not want to get involved any more.

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EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guarantee you there were more than 4 people in the food court, but people today have become so accustomed to police officers taking care of them (it starts before that, it starts in government school) that they're impotent.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

*SNIP*Ever go to Melting Pot Pizza? Their's is, without a doubt, the best pizza I have ever had.

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Many times and I have to agree it is some fantastic pizza!

LEO 229 wrote:

*SNIP*If I have four guys pounding the crap out of me... I am probably going to take out the bigest threat first and hope the rest run off.

*SNIP*Important note: If you draw you better be ready to fire. This is your chance to shoot before someone else decides deadly force needs to be used against you. I never draw to scare.

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Both are excellent points Leo 229! My hopes would be to simply deter the criminals but I would act if I felt I had too. My major concern would be them getting my gun and using it on me or some other innocent victim. And if the ass whooping is imminent I have no doubt they would get my gun.