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Thread: Frisked at WalMart

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    Hi to all. Just wanted to get some feedback on this. I was at the Cannonsburg, KY (Ashland area)Wal Mart last night shopping after work. About 1:00am. The only people there were the stockers. I have a ccw license. I had my pistol in its holster stuck in my back pocket. I would say it was covered up most of the time by my long shirt. I knew it was visible at times but didn't care one way or the other b/c of my ccw and Ky being an open carry state. About halfway thru my shopping a manager asked if I needed any help. I asked about some gloves but she was no help. Later I see a kid peaking around the isle at me. Weird kid I think. Few isles later I see Johny Law State Trooper at the other end. I start to wonder but continue to look at the frozen food. Next, he is behind me telling me to turn around and put my hands up.I do so while saying I have agun and a ccw permit. So there I am staring at frozen pizza while as it turns out 3 State Troopers are behind me. One is holding my hands, another is trying to pull my pistol out. He gets it without accidently shooting me with it, one ask if I have another gun and I tell him I have aconcelaed knife in my front pocket whileanother is trying to pull my wallet out, and eventually one pats me down. They let me turn around. The one with my wallet is running my license and finding my ccw permit. He says I am good. Then they tell me I freaked out someone at walmart. I ask that isn't open carry permitted in Ky? He says yes but that guns make people jumpy.He advises me not to carry open and says something about being charged with disorderly conduct(someone please explain that to me). They leave and I go fetch my gun off the buggy. I pull it from the holster, chamber a round, and decock it. I then stick it on my belt (edited, inside my waistbandwith much trouble as those workpants were way to tight and that is the whole reason it was in my backpocket) and begin to pull my shirt over it. But I think screw it and leave it in the open. This is when the manager I had talked to earlier and two other workers walk up to me. She says she is sorry but she was doing her job with the safety of others in mind. Then she says she may feel safer knowing I legally have a gun.?

    Maybe if people knew their laws and libertiesI wouldn't have to go thru this.Maybe if she had asked me the first timeshe talked to me about my gun or to see a permit, or to keep it covered up because I wasmaking someone uncomfortable.

    What do you think? Any thoughts on what the officer meant by disorderly conduct?

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    I had a problem with a Asst. manager at a wal-mart in El paso when I was trying on pants in a dresing room as he walked in after using his key to open the locked door and saw my CHL gun sitting on the shelf, he asked me in a load voice "is that a Gun you have sir" I replyed use and I am legally able to have it. So I asked to speak to the manager and was told he was off that day . So I called there home office and spoke to a nice lady who told me that the manger would recieve training on how to handle guns.
    The part that is really gets my blood to boil is that he entered the dressing room after knowing I was in there with out asking or saying he was entering.



    I wrote a letter to the local paper and got a large support for my actions.



    you might want to call wal-marts main office and file a complant.

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    I have no real insight but I do have a couple of thoughts.

    The manager way over reacted.

    I never play peekaboo. My gun is either clearly visible, secured in a holster or it is well concealed.

    Bad guys are characterized as not using holsters and sloppy concealment.

    In general the public views quality holters, openly carried with LE.

    My guess is that a lot of things innocent in and of themselves, added up against you.

    Late at night, nerveous manager, gun playing peekaboo in your back pocket.

    Again no accusations here, just thoughs.

    When all was said and done I think you did exactly the right thing by wearing your gun openly on your belt.

    I also think it was a good learning experience for the manager.

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    I'm confused what gave the police the power to stop, identify, frisk, and disarm you. Ihre papieren Bitte!

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    walrus wrote:
    He advises me not to carry open and says something about being charged with disorderly conduct(someone please explain that to me).
    Disorderly conduct appears to mean "upsetting someone" to lots of LEOs. In fact, though, the statute in every state (AFAIK) is far more specific than that and requires elements that are not met by a citizen going about his business with a visible weapon.

    I've yet to hear of a single conviction for disorderly conduct for OC, in any state, that wasn't because there was something more than just OC going on.

    I will say that, in my opinion, putting your holster in your back pocket isn't a good choice. If I saw the handle of a gun protruding from a back pocket I might be more inclined to think "bad guy", though I'd probably decide that if you were going to rob the place you'd be up front doing that, rather than browsing the frozen foods. It also seems like a retention risk -- much better to have the holster firmly attached to your belt.

    It's too bad you didn't ask what crime they suspected you of committing. I can only think of a couple that would be potentially relevant here, either concealment without a permit, or disorderly conduct. Exactly what they suspected you of would be important to deciding if they had reasonable articulable suspicion that you might be involved in a crime or probable cause to believe you had committed a crime. They need reasonable articulable suspicion in order to detain and frisk you. They need probable cause in order to arrest and search you.

    I think your "frisk" crossed the line into a search when they removed your wallet and started looking in it. The purpose of "Terry stop" frisk is to locate and remove weapons, nothing else. Did they ask permission to remove or look into your wallet? If so, and if you consented, then it was a frisk, not a search.

    To search you, they need probable cause that you have committed a crime. If they thought OC was legitimate grounds for a disorderly conduct charge, then they thought they had probable cause. They were wrong, and should be corrected.

    Bottom line: If you didn't give them permission to take your wallet and extract your ID, then I think they conducted an unwarranted search.

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    swillden wrote:
    Did they ask permission to remove or look into your wallet? If so, and if you consented, then it was a frisk, not a search.

    To search you, they need probable cause that you have committed a crime. If they thought OC was legitimate grounds for a disorderly conduct charge, then they thought they had probable cause. They were wrong, and should be corrected.

    Bottom line: If you didn't give them permission to take your wallet and extract your ID, then I think they conducted an unwarranted search.
    They pulled my wallet out and then informed me they were only going to get my id out of it. I couldn't see him going thru my wallet.

    As for the search I was disarmed and then he ran his hands over me. After patting me down he felt my pockets and said what's this? Ianswercellphone, keys, cigarettes.



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    I think the LEO's overreacted - they should have just asked to see your permit. You shouldfollow up with a written "concern" to their HQ.

    In 2007 I OCed in a WalMart in KY for about an hour with John Pierce - no problem at all.

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    Unless these officers can articulate that you had committed or were obviously about to commit a crime, they were not justified in stopping you or patting you down. If I were in your shoes I would definitely view this as a violation of my civil rights and would not only file a complaint, but would speak to a lawyer.

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    I'm pretty much in agreement with sa45auto's comments.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Apparently Kentucky has two degrees of disorderly conduct, 1st and 2nd degree.

    http://tinyurl.com/38yxah

    525.055 Disorderly conduct in the first degree.

    (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct in the first degree when he or she:

    (a) In a public place and with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or

    alarm, or wantonly creating a risk thereof:


    • 1. Engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;

    • 2. Makes unreasonable noise; or

    • 3. Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that
    • serves no legitimate purpose; and.....

    525.060 Disorderly conduct in the second degree.

    (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct in the second degree when in a public place

    and with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or wantonly

    creating a risk thereof, he:


    • (a) Engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;

    • (b) Makes unreasonable noise;

    • (c) Refuses to obey an official order to disperse issued to maintain public safety

    • in dangerous proximity to a fire, hazard, or other emergency; or

    • (d) Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that serves no
    • legitimate purpose....

    I see nothing here to support a charge of disorderly conduct.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that there was a lot of overreaction going on in this instance. I may never look at frozen food the same again.

    Anyway, I picked up a used gun at the gunshow today. I haven't been to walmart to get ammo yet.

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    I'm confused as to why this:

    She says she is sorry but she was doing her job with the safety of others in mind. Then she says she may feel safer knowing I legally have a gun.?
    was glossed over. How is calling the police on you when you haven't done anything illegal "just doing her job"? I promise you that I would be having a discussion with her supervisor over exactly what "her job" entails.

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    Under "Terry v. Ohio" US Supreme court decision 1966 gives police the 'right' to stop and frisk and determine the situation without requiring an arrest

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    walrus wrote:
    They leave and I go fetch my gun off the buggy. I pull it from the holster, chamber a round, and decock it.
    Just curious, what type of gun? I've never heard of this being a good condition to carry in, at least not with a 1911. Granted, I don't know first hand, I carry a glock.

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    Walther p99, same as a Smith Wesson 99. DA/SA What are you asking? Not a good condition to carry a round chambered?

    This is striker fired. It has internal safeties.

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    Many people consider it dangerous to carry a 1911 chambered with the hammer down. It should either be cocked and locked, or not in the chamber. I can't say for your gun though.

    Edit: NM, the P99 is a totally different animal. Reading up on it now. Learn new stuff every day.

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    I oc at my local wal-mart almost regularly without any issue. i get the occasional child gauking at me which i usually get a kick out of

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    firearmsinstructor1139 wrote:
    Under "Terry v. Ohio" US Supreme court decision 1966 gives police the 'right' to stop and frisk and determine the situation without requiring an arrest
    Only when they have reasonable articulable suspicion that "crime is afoot".

    Where open carry is legal, openly carrying cannot, by itself, justify a Terry stop.


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    As I tell students in my firearms classes, an answer to a legal question is safely, "It Depends". It depends upon which police officer that stops you and it depends upon which judge you draw in court. I am not a lawyer and can't teach or interpret the law, but after 20 years public service (17 as a cop) I sure can give examples of practical experience. Experience for me, the stop in Wal-mart doesn't reach the Terry level of suspicion or reason for detaining,

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    Mike wrote:
    I think the LEO's overreacted...
    I think what the LEOs did was illegal.

    Did the LEOs have RAS that a crime had been committed?
    Did the LEOs have RAS that a crime was being committed?
    Did the LEOs have RAS that a crime will be committed?

    If the answer to each of these questions is,"No," then don't mince words. What the LEOs did was illegal.

    When I do something illegal I am arrested. Why is there a different standard for LEOs??

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    walrus wrote:
    I have a ccw license. I had my pistol in its holster stuck in my back pocket. I would say it was covered up most of the time by my long shirt. I knew it was visible at times but didn't care one way or the other b/c of my ccw and Ky being an open carry state.
    First mistake I think. Concealed means concealed, and open means open. A person carrying in a tuckable IWB holster, not printing, raises approximately zero alarms. A person carrying openly at 3:00 or 4:00, or "Virginia Open"in an IWB plainly visible, looks like he knows what he's doing, and though it may cause some alarm, most people even if they notice the gun will assume you are supposed to have it.

    However, sticking your gun in a back pocket (even if it's also in a holster) and not making a conscious effort to plainly display or completely conceal, is a signal to others that you are not supposed to have that weapon, and are poorly trying to hide it. That just says "gangbanger" even to many gun carriers, and though legal, obviously does not project an image of a guy who knows what he's doing.

    This is when the manager I had talked to earlier and two other workers walk up to me. She says she is sorry but she was doing her job with the safety of others in mind. Then she says she may feel safer knowing I legally have a gun.?
    Sounds like you might have a convert. Even ifyou're still accosted, that manager will know you're good, andas she said she might feel safer with a gun owner around her, that sounds like a person who might consider carrying themselves (outside work of course, Wally World has a no-guns employee policy AFAIK)
    Maybe if people knew their laws and libertiesI wouldn't have to go thru this.Maybe if she had asked me the first timeshe talked to me about my gun or to see a permit, or to keep it covered up because I wasmaking someone uncomfortable.
    Welcome to OCDO. That's what we do; educate others around us thatopen carryis in fact legal, and not evidence of any other criminal impulse. Now, here in Texas it is in fact not legal to OC . It is a de facto rural OC state; it's not a crime to OC a handgun when hunting or on your own property, and in rural communities this is extended; everyone has a gun, the sight of a gun is not alarming unless the person carrying it is alarming by himself, and even the sound of a gun being shot is an everyday thing; if you have a couple acres you haul some fill dirt to an out-of-the-way corner on your lot and target shoot. SoI think, for the most part, if Texas passed legal OC in some form, Texans would by and large be fine with it.
    What do you think? Any thoughts on what the officer meant by disorderly conduct?
    Disorderly conduct charges are a common intimidation tactic used by police who are against civilian OC. You may find yourself cooling your heels in a holding cell for it, but it would be a false arrest and malicious prosecution resulting in a nice addition to your retirement fund. There was a Supreme Court ruling that clarified some points of Terry v Ohio, including the fact that OCif legal in the jurisdiction does not constitutethe required RAS for a detention. Even if it is only legal when the individual is licensed to do so (i.e. Georgia), the officer must presume the individual is licensed unless there is evidence to the contrary.

    In addition, every disorderlyconduct law I have read (about a dozen sofar)requires intent. You must carry that weapon in a manner reasonably calculated and intended to intimidate or cause alarm. Again, the courts have ruled that a gun in its holster on the hip of a lawful individual is not by itself evidence of intent to cause alarm,nor is the gun carried in a manner calculated to do so,even if it does in fact cause alarm.

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    Liko81 wrote:
    walrus wrote:
    I have a ccw license. I had my pistol in its holster stuck in my back pocket. I would say it was covered up most of the time by my long shirt. I knew it was visible at times but didn't care one way or the other b/c of my ccw and Ky being an open carry state.
    First mistake I think. Concealed means concealed, and open means open. A person carrying in a tuckable IWB holster, not printing, raises approximately zero alarms. A person carrying openly at 3:00 or 4:00, or "Virginia Open"in an IWB plainly visible, looks like he knows what he's doing, and though it may cause some alarm, most people even if they notice the gun will assume you are supposed to have it.
    I'll second this. If I saw a gun playing peekaboo I'd get paranoid too. You may notice me staring. Of course when you see me OCing and strike up a friendly conversation then all suspicion will probably go away.

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    asforme wrote:
    walrus wrote:
    I had my pistol in its holster stuck in my back pocket.
    I'll second this. You may notice me staring.




    *the dangers of selective quoting .... * :P [img]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Garrett/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/img]
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    As a police officer in central, KY, I'll weigh in on this...

    I agree with those saying you need to maybe change your carrying habits.

    Open carry is no problem, but I would add some caveats:

    1. Don't look like a thug.

    2. Either have it clearly open, or completely concealed.

    3. Being in a Wal-Mart at 2:00 am (is that the right time?) with a gun playing peak-a-boo? Bad idea. The people working those hours are constantly afraid of robbery risks, and whether you meant to or not, they got that vibe off of you.

    4. In KY, Disorderly Conduct is one of those "catch-all" type charges, basically for when you are either making an ass of yourself,or"alarming, annoying or affronting" the general public. I would venture to say that the carry condition(sloppy) + time of day+ location = some general alarm.

    I am not in the habit of blindly either supporting or denouncing police action that I wasn't there to witness, but your contact with KSP seemed fairly innocous.



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    Ohio Patriot wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    I think the LEO's overreacted...
    I think what the LEOs did was illegal.

    Did the LEOs have RAS that a crime had been committed?
    Did the LEOs have RAS that a crime was being committed?
    Did the LEOs have RAS that a crime will be committed?

    If the answer to each of these questions is,"No," then don't mince words. What the LEOs did was illegal.

    When I do something illegal I am arrested. Why is there a different standard for LEOs??
    No, what they did was not illegal, and your last question, "Did the LEOs have RAS that a crime will be committed?" is why.

    A sloppily carried gun in a store in the early moring hours? Bad idea, and it is our job to check those kinds of things out. Again, his contact amounted to no more than a Terry stop, and I do about a hundrred of them a week, and trust me, if it wound up in court, the above conditions would justify the stop. He wasn't searched, he wasn't manhandled, they simply checked his CCW status, then gave him some advice on how to actually avoid being Terry stopped in the future.

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