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Thread: Traveling to San Francisco

  1. #1
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    Thought I would get a quick rundown of OC'ing during my trip.I am flying into Oakland on the red eye and going to San Francisco/Palo Alto area for the weekend, eventually making it to Yosemite during the week for a few days. While I am aware of the state of carrying in a National park (or lack thereof) I am curious as to the local city ordinances to this matter. I have my CCW permit from the state of PA and while i know that is about as useless as cardboard toilet paper in the state of California I was wondering if I can open carry in the city of San Francisco/Oakland/Palo Alto with my 1911 being empty. Is there any city ordinances or some more oppressive unconstitutional statute that these areas have that I should be made aware of?

    I have the trifold pamphlet that I plan on carrying with me in case I am questioned by a LEO but I thought I would try and be more thorough.

    And please no responses about how california society isn't that accepting of open carry...no kidding. But I carry for both defense and because it's my right to. I open carry all the time in PA. I shouldn't be shamed into not carrying because of some tree huggin hippies say im killin their buzz. I am reminded of a scene in X-Men 2 where Nightcrawler asks Mystique (the blue skinned shapeshifter) if she can stay in human disguise all the time why doesn't she. Her answer is simple and to the point: "Because we shouldn't have to". I'm not going to alter my constitutional freedom because some birkenstock flag burner doesnt think the finest sidearm ever produced is politically correct.

    And yes, I understand that a loaded gun is better than an unloaded one but the 6 years I spent in the army have made me pretty proficient in loading a weapon quickly.

    Sorry for the rambling. Any bay area residents know of any LEGAL difficulty i may face trying to open carry unloaded in the bay area?



  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    You could try searching their municipal codes:

    San Francisco

    Palo Alto

    Regardless what is legal or not, don't be surprised to have a very unfreindly encounter with LEO. Those are some insanely anti-gun pro-big-gov places.



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    God speed! and good luck. Let us know about your first day ASAP. I'm assuming you're already in the air or perhaps here now! Boy, I don't know what to say. Wish I could be with you to back you up if you run into trouble. It's not really fair to let you take on this fight which belongs to Californians but maybe it's best done by someone who hasn't been taught to fear the government out here.

    Any problems call someone and have them get in touch with us here. We'll attempt to help in any way, but I can envision, with fingers crossed, that you'll be able to enjoy your trip unmolested.

    Muni Code Violations in CA are Misdemeanors orInfractions. And be sure to also read http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf


    and this
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/3788.html



    Andthese San Fran sections. The first one, known as Measure H has been ruled unconstitutional but SF has appealed to the CASC. I don't know its current enforceability.

    http://www.municode.com/Resources/ga...4140&sid=5



    SEC. 3601A. PENALTY FOR SALE, DISTRIBUTION, TRANSFER, AND MANUFACTURE OF FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION OR POSSESSION OF HANDGUNS WITHIN CITY AND COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO.
    SEC. 4512. HANDGUNS LOCATED IN A RESIDENCE TO BE KEPT IN A LOCKED CONTAINER OR DISABLED WITH A TRIGGER LOCK.


    Palo Alto http://nt2.scbbs.com/cgi-bin/om_isap...rowse_Frame_Pg

    Title 9 Chapter 9.08 - Guns




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    Um...yeah, I heard just today that SF laws are as bad as the DC gun ban, but haven't read them for myself. I would never recommend to anyone to NOT OC where it's legal. However, I would advise extreme caution and research BEFORE attempting and recommend having a fantastic 2A attorney already on retainer and having his number memorized for your one call. Perhaps even advising him of what you're planning.

    In fact, the news lately has been showing the protesters picketing and very vocally protesting agains the U.S. Marine Corp recruiters offices in Berkley. THey get very UGLY and DESPISE the military even. Might as well be another planet, let alone America.

    Your rights are one thing and are certainly undeniable, but when you're surrounded by and ugly mob of 30 screaming liberal freaks, that's another thing altogether.To me, that would be like OC'ing in DC. Prepare for arrest and hope for the best! God speed and keep us posted!



  5. #5
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    So i've been looking over all the statutes for San Fran and Palo Alto and I appreciate the information. Oddly enough, unless I am reading something wrong, it seems like i'm going to have a bigger problem in Palo Alto than in San Fran













    [b]9.08.010Firing and possession of 1720 (part), 1956: prior code § 8.01)
    [/size][/color][/font]9.08.010 as to the use of any of the firearms mentioned therein shall not apply to any of the following cases:
    (1)To police, peace officers or persons in military service in the discharge of their duties and using reasonable care;
    (2)To persons using firearms in necessary self-defense;
    (3)To the possession of such firearms for keeping at the place of residence or business of the person otherwise in lawful possession thereof, or while traveling to or from a legal firing, shooting or target range or hunting ground;
    (4)To the discharging or firing of such firearms or causing them to be discharged or fired at a legal firing, shooting or target range or hunting ground;
    (5)To the discharging or firing of fireworks after permit therefor has been issued by the fire chief;
    (6)To the use of a gun firing .22 caliber shot-cartridge only, upon a written permit applied for and granted by the chief of police to protect life or property against animals, birds or rodents;
    (7)To the discharging or firing of a pistol incapable of projecting any bullet or missile (a) for the sole purpose of starting an organized athletic event, by an official who has charge of the competitors at the start of the athletic event; or (b) for use as a theater prop in a bona fide theatrical production.
    (Ord. 2936 § 1, 1976: Ord. 2142 (part), 1963: Ord. 1720 (part), 1956: prior code § 8.02)



    Now, am I reading this wrong or is Palo Alto really undercutting my right to carry? And what about exception #2 that states "to persons using firearms in necessary self defense"? If they bar me from carrying then how can I use a weapon I don't have in self defense? OR can I simply say, the worlds a dangerous place and I am using this firearm on my hip as a preventive means of self defense?

    It's funny, I never really thought of myself as a 2nd Amendment activist, though I believe it is the most important of all rights, but I think i've taken it for granted and its not until traveling to the Eastern Bloc of America on the left coast that I realize that its a right that is slowly being eroded.

    But enough of me waxing lamentfully, any confrimation or rebuttal of what I have read concerning Palo Alto?

  6. #6
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    The "right to carry" doesn't exist in California as recongnized by our courts as it has been in your fair state.

    The California Constitution contains no provision regarding a "right to bear arms." See Kasler v. Lockyer, 2 P.3d 581 (Cal. 2000) (holding that no "right to bear arms" exists under the California Constitution).
    The issue you're running into is that many muni codes dealing with areas in which state has since legislated upon are preempted but not repealed. The state has legislated heavily upon pistol possession and therefor local laws on the issue should be preempted. I should bold SHOULD. However it is not clear that the Palo Alto law is in regards to open carry. They would need to be sued or have an arrest thrown out to settle the issue clearly.

    These guys are the enemy but their analysis are scholarly but I wouldn't put it past them to omit an analysis favorable to preemption of open carry in public.

    http://www.lcav.org/states/californi...ibutionofPower


    Article XI, § 7 of the California Constitution provides that "[a] county or city may make and enforce within its limits all local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances and regulations not in conflict with general laws." Under this provision, a local government's police power is as broad as the state legislature's power, and a city or county may act to protect the welfare of its residents. Candid Enterprises v. Grossmont Union High School District, 705 P.2d 876, 882 (Cal. 1985). A local government's police power includes the power to regulate firearms. Galvan v. Superior Court of San Francisco, 452 P.2d 930 (Cal. 1969).

    Ordinances enacted pursuant to the police power are valid unless they conflict with state law. Sherwin-Williams Co. v. City of Los Angeles, 844 P.2d 534, 536 (Cal. 1993). A conflict exists if the ordinance contradicts, duplicates, or enters an area occupied by general law, either expressly or by legislative implication. Id. at 536-7.

    "An ordinance contradicts state law if it is inimical to state law; i.e., it penalizes conduct that state law expressly authorizes or permits conduct which state law forbids."
    Suter v. City of Lafayette, 67 Cal. Rptr. 2d 420, 428 (Cal. Ct. App. 1997). Local law is duplicative of state law if it is coextensive with state law. Sherwin-Williams, 844 P.2d at 536. Finally, "local legislation enters an area that is 'fully occupied' by [state] law when the Legislature has expressly manifested its intent to ‘fully occupy’ the area or when it has impliedly done so." Id. at 536-7. (citations omitted)

    The California Legislature has expressly preempted the following areas of firearms law: 1) licensing or registration of commercially manufactured firearms (
    Cal. Gov't Code § 53071); 2) licensing or permitting with respect to the purchase, ownership, possession or carrying of a concealable firearm in the home or place of business (Cal. Penal Code § 12026); and 3) regulation of the manufacture, sale or possession of "imitation firearms" (Cal Gov't Code § 53071.5).




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    It may be important to note that CA has state preemption. While that may help you in court, I wouldn't bet that it would stop a local cop from arresting you or local prosecutor from bringing a case against you.
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  8. #8
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    So I had my first experience with California open carry today...suffice it to say I ended up in handcuffs. Unfortunately it was partially my fault.

    I arrived into Oakland Airport and found out that people I was meeting theres flight got delayed so I had about 8 hours to kill so instead of sitting there at the airport like a lump I decided to check out San Fran. I didnt want to lug my luggage around so I checked it into a little check in shop at the airport, holstered my sidearm unloaded and made my way to the BART airport shuttle. Unfortunately I discovered that it only takes exact change so without thinking I headed back into the airport to break a $20. The Alameda Sherriff's dept. was there to greet me and had me in cuffs pretty quickly. The funny thing was that when they came up they asked if I had a firearm on me, I looked down to my hip and said Yes. The main LEO asked what I was doing and I told him that it was my understanding that Open carry was legal in the state of CA. To which he replied that i was dead wrong and that this wasnt Nevada, Arizona or Texas. I refrained from correcting him that Texas doesn not permit open carry. Anyhow they take me back to their office and start asking some questions, main stuff, did i have ID, where i was from etc. I told them my id was in my pocket, they took it out ALONG with my pamphlet about Open Carry in CA that I printed from this site along with the 2 page flyer that someone else had posted from here. Now this, along with my choice of sidearm, impressed them. They looked over the pamphlet and we started shootin the breeze a bit, army talk, weapon selection etc. Apparently carrying a concealed firearm is a misdemeanor but carrying a concealed butterfly knife is a felony. But I digress, they told me that I was correct that OC is legal in california though they said I would have problems trying to excercise that right in SF. Apparently when I walked back into the airport I committed a misdemeanor myself by not having my sidearm in my gun case but they agreed that it was just a misunderstanding and didn't charge me with anything. They were so impressed by the pamphlet that they asked if they could borrow it to make copies(their copier was down at that moment) I said sure and they said it would be with my luggage when I returned.

    All in all i think it was a enlightening experience all around. I learned to pay better attention to where i am going and the sherriffs learned something new about the legality of Open carry in california.

    Prophet - Winning the hearts and minds of LEO's since 2008! :celebrate

    Great work on that pamphlet by the way.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    hmmm...if the previous message comes up a dozen times i aplogize. Im at an internet cafe and everytime i hit send it kept saying error. So i kept trying. Never told me it worked but apparently it did. Lets hope it only worked once and not the other 11 times.

  10. #10
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Wow.

    Alameda County Sheriffs were educated? By a Pennsylvanian? ABout lawful open carry? No wonder you posted it like six times!



    Perhaps Alameda S/O will make a visit to OCDO- as converts.

    I think that your experience underscores the importance of being prepared and having resources like a PC cheat sheet or the pamphlet on hand.

    :celebrate
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    Not to worry,it did post multiple times, but I deleted them! Even if you get an "error", the msg still posts. Just hit the back button on your browser.

    Sounds like your first OC in CA was great! Great job on Very lucky they were decent and let you go. I hope all the rest of your encounters are as good! I carried my pamphlet everywhere in VA too, always a great idea. Just have to make one for Nevada now!

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    This is great! Prophet, thank you for taking on the risk of OCing in
    Kalifornia. DeColigny and Mudcamper, thank you for generating
    the California law synopses. You folks are doing a wonderful job
    of reducing the fascism level in this state. (I do feel a little guilty
    about leeching off your efforts, since I live here but haven't OCed yet.)


    gridboy

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    Typical CA LEO, lies to you right out of the gate. I have very low tolerance for liars, so I probably would not have responded well in that situation. At least he was decent enough to admit that our literature is accurate.

    Thank you for taking the time and risk of open carrying in CA. Every little bit of exposure to the public and LE community helps our cause.
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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Prophet wrote:
    So I had my first experience with California open carry today...suffice it to say I ended up in handcuffs. Unfortunately it was partially my fault.

    I arrived into Oakland Airport and found out that people I was meeting theres flight got delayed so I had about 8 hours to kill so instead of sitting there at the airport like a lump I decided to check out San Fran. I didnt want to lug my luggage around so I checked it into a little check in shop at the airport, holstered my sidearm unloaded and made my way to the BART airport shuttle. Unfortunately I discovered that it only takes exact change so without thinking I headed back into the airport to break a $20. The Alameda Sherriff's dept. was there to greet me and had me in cuffs pretty quickly. The funny thing was that when they came up they asked if I had a firearm on me, I looked down to my hip and said Yes. The main LEO asked what I was doing and I told him that it was my understanding that Open carry was legal in the state of CA. To which he replied that i was dead wrong and that this wasnt Nevada, Arizona or Texas. I refrained from correcting him that Texas doesn not permit open carry. Anyhow they take me back to their office and start asking some questions, main stuff, did i have ID, where i was from etc. I told them my id was in my pocket, they took it out ALONG with my pamphlet about Open Carry in CA that I printed from this site along with the 2 page flyer that someone else had posted from here. Now this, along with my choice of sidearm, impressed them. They looked over the pamphlet and we started shootin the breeze a bit, army talk, weapon selection etc. Apparently carrying a concealed firearm is a misdemeanor but carrying a concealed butterfly knife is a felony. But I digress, they told me that I was correct that OC is legal in california though they said I would have problems trying to excercise that right in SF. Apparently when I walked back into the airport I committed a misdemeanor myself by not having my sidearm in my gun case but they agreed that it was just a misunderstanding and didn't charge me with anything. They were so impressed by the pamphlet that they asked if they could borrow it to make copies(their copier was down at that moment) I said sure and they said it would be with my luggage when I returned.

    All in all i think it was a enlightening experience all around. I learned to pay better attention to where i am going and the sherriffs learned something new about the legality of Open carry in california.

    Prophet - Winning the hearts and minds of LEO's since 2008! :celebrate

    Great work on that pamphlet by the way.
    Which Pamphlet was it?

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    gridboy wrote:
    This is great! Prophet, thank you for taking on the risk of OCing in
    Kalifornia. DeColigny and Mudcamper, thank you for generating
    the California law synopses. You folks are doing a wonderful job
    of reducing the fascism level in this state. (I do feel a little guilty
    about leeching off your efforts, since I live here but haven't OCed yet.)


    gridboy
    Don't feel guilty! Did you feel guilty for using the math books the school provided you? No, it is a resource. We put them out in the hopes that someone would find them useful and maybe not end up being arrested due to misinformation or just plain lack of knowledge.

    Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge...

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    Congrats...on putting to shame many a Californian for just doing what is legal in Ca for lawful self-defense carry

    An unloaded openly carriedsidearm in the non secure area of the airport is no crime (to my knowledge). I don't know what they were referring to. It's not a federal or state statute so I'm inclined to believe they were mistaken. It may be a county ordinance if the airport is considered county property...will research. Of course for travel it must be per TSA rules.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    Cato, that's what I thought aswell. Or else why wouldnt they have the metal detectors at the entrance to the terminal? I thought I had read somewhere here about someone OC'ing in baggage claim with no hassle...not in CA neccesarily but some american airport. Unfortunately I wasnt well enough versed in the minutae of airport protocol so I didn't want to call them on something I wasn't completely sure of.

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    Is SFO a publicly owned building, or is it privately owned? If it is publicly owned, then it is covered by PC 171b.

    Also, some airports fall under federal rules. For example, I have been told that Manchester Airport (Manchester, NH) is off limits because it is considered a federal building.

    I wish I knew the proper terminology or US code to explain, but I'm at a loss right now. If I can find my source I'll post it here.
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  19. #19
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    171b doesn't apply or nobody could enter an airport even with an unloaded locked in a case firearm. Airports are not federal buildings.

  20. #20
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    cato wrote:
    Airports are not federal buildings.
    I've been told that the Manchester Airport is a "federal preserve." I don't know of any simple way to verify this, and I have no real interest in learning federal laws (I'd just as soon not have a federal govt). For all I know there's no statute banning firearms on federal preserves.

    This 'misdemeanor' threat was probably just the usual ******** we hear out 90% of the LEO community. To maintain power/control they simply have to keep the sheeple living in fear of accidently violating the statutes, then act like they're the good guy cutting the sheeple a break.... makes me sick.
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    Decoligny wrote:
    Which Pamphlet was it?
    DOT! I would like to know as well..


    .. n/m.. found it.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    The Alameda Sherriff's Department was bluffing as far as it being a misdemeanor to bring an "uncased" firearm into the non-secure portion of the Airport.

    CA PENAL CODE SECTION 171.5.

    (a) For purposes of this section:
    (1) "Airport" means an airport, with a secured area, that regularly serves an air carrier holding a certificate issued by the United States Secretary of Transportation.
    (2) "Passenger vessel terminal" means only that portion of a harbor or port facility, as described in Section 105.105(a)(2) of Title 33 of the Code of Federal Regulations, with a secured area that regularly serves scheduled commuter or passenger operations.
    (3) "Sterile area" means a portion of an airport defined in the airport security program to which access generally is controlled through the screening of persons and property, as specified in Section 1540.5 of Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or a portion of any passenger vessel terminal to which, pursuant to the
    requirements set forth in Sections 105.255(a)(1), 105.255(c)(1), and 105.260(a) of Title 33 of the Code of Federal Regulations, access is generally controlled in a manner consistent with the passenger vessel terminal's security plan and the MARSEC level in effect at the time.

    (b) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess, within any sterile area of an airport or a passenger vessel terminal, any of the items listed in subdivision (c).

    (c) The following items are unlawful to possess as provided in subdivision (b):
    (1) Any firearm.
    (2) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the blade of which is fixed, or is capable of being fixed, in an unguarded position by the use of one or two hands.
    (3) Any box cutter or straight razor.
    (4) Any metal military practice hand grenade.
    (5) Any metal replica hand grenade.
    (6) Any plastic replica hand grenade.
    (7) Any imitation firearm as defined in Section 417.4.
    (8) Any frame, receiver, barrel, or magazine of a firearm.
    (9) Any unauthorized tear gas weapon.
    (10) Any taser or stun gun, as defined in Section 244.5.
    (11) Any instrument that expels a metallic projectile, such as a BB or pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun or paint gun.
    (12) Any ammunition as defined in Section 12316.

    (d) Subdivision (b) shall not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
    (1) A duly appointed peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a retired peace officer with authorization to carry concealed weapons as described in subdivision (a) of Section 12027, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, or any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer.
    (2) A person who has authorization to possess a weapon specified in subdivision (c), granted in writing by an airport security coordinator who is designated as specified in Section 1542.3 of Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, and who is responsible for the security of the airport.
    (3) A person, including an employee of a licensed contract guard service, who has authorization to possess a weapon specified in subdivision (c) granted in writing by a person discharging the duties of Facility Security Officer or Company Security Officer pursuant to an approved United States Coast Guard facility security plan, and
    who is responsible for the security of the passenger vessel terminal.

    (e) A violation of this section is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for a period not exceeding six months, or by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.

    (f) The provisions of this section are cumulative, and shall not be construed as restricting the application of any other law. However, an act or omission that is punishable in different ways by this and any other provision of law shall not be punished under more than one provision.

    (g) Nothing in this section is intended to affect existing state or federal law regarding the transportation of firearms on airplanes in checked luggage, or the possession of the items listed in subdivision (c) in areas that are not "sterile areas."


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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Sorry, but you have to be nuts to live in the Peoples Demokratic Repulik of Kalifornia. I was there for two years back in the early '70s while at Mather AFB in Sacramento for Navigator training, then at George AFB in Victorville for F-4 training. Back then, they could read the constitution and had a governor by the name of Reagan who believed in it. Now, you have more freedom in Bosnia. With that pos pelosi and the two dirtbag senators you have, Kalifornia even beats out Taxachusetts with Hanoi John Kerry and the 600 pound drunk, Senator Chivas. You have my sympathy. The RSAs dealing with firearms in NH, TX, VA and CO COMBINED take two or three pages. You have an encyclopedia of what rights you give up to live there. We have just as much sunshine, no humidity and freedom here in Colorado. Plus, I like the Atlantic ocean a lot better than the Pacific! :shock:
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    I hate trolls like you, gunslinger. You come onto the CA forum to insult California and Californians. I was born in California. My family, and extended family all live here. My friends all live here. We are all pro-2A. We are fighting for YOUR 2A rights here. We are on the front lines.Would you rather that the 20 million sensible people in CA all pack up and abandon our homeland, and our rights, to the idiots?

  25. #25
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    MudCamper wrote:
    I hate trolls like you, gunslinger. You come onto the CA forum to insult California and Californians. I was born in California. My family, and extended family all live here. My friends all live here. We are all pro-2A. We are fighting for YOUR 2A rights here. We are on the front lines.Would you rather that the 20 million sensible people in CA all pack up and abandon our homeland, and our rights, to the idiots?
    Sorry, but you'd better read up on the definition of trolls. This is an opinion forum, not a party line. Nowhere did I insult the CA 2A supporter, merely the state. You're no more on the 'front lines' than any of us who support the 2A in CO, NM or American Samoa, you merely have to fight your own inept government. And much of what I said was meant in good humor. I lived in CA for 2 years, went from there to Vietnam--if you want to talk about fighting on the front line, and was sorry to see what became of what was then a great state with a great governor. Save your insults for the enemy, which is not me. Or aren't you bright enough to know the difference. Feel free to come on the CO site any time you like. This is still, with the exception of a good part of your state, a free country...and a free forum.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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