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Thread: Why does moderation come in waves on this forum?

  1. #1
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    I'm curious if anyone else has noticed that all of a sudden in the last week or so, threads are being overly moderated again. Threads from MONTHS ago are having their titles changed, seemingly for illogical, personal reasons. Threads are being locked, then unlocked, then who knows what because our human minds tend to wander every once in a while to other subjects.

    I understand the current first rule of this forum asks that all topics are kept within the realm of "open carry, freedom, liberty, firearms and gun rights". I don't know if the use of the General Discussionarea has been discussed before, but I do believe it needs to be discussed now. Why shouldn't we have an area on this board where we can strengthen the social bond that already exists here by discussing other interests in our lives? If there is a logical reason why that would be a problem here, I'd be interested in hearing it, because I truly doubt there is.

    I say this is a community with a common goal, and we should not lose sight of that goal. However, I think we should also have the freedom to share any thoughts and interests we may have with each other, without fear of moderation and censorship. After all, doesn't thatmeet the freedom and liberty requirements?

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    Recently, to a once and future poster, I denied the very collegiality/congeniality that you called the "social bond."

    I don't know what is y'alls understanding of 'community', but we can enjoy freedom or community but not both. There is a tension between them that cannot be, in principle, denied.

    This community is not free to bash First Class Citizens - those that can and will be armed where we all may not be. This community is required to tolerate the yapping of sheeple-dogs though there are presumably no sheeple here.

    As to freedom and liberty; what is not said is often as or more important as what is said. It's just that we don't get the pleasure of hearing our enemy/victims squeal.

    I'll edit shortly with a reading list on 'community'. There may be some evidence of the significance of these works in the fact that they have Wiki entries that have survived the vandals' efforts to deface them

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Cultures

    The Secular City in 1965 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Cox

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeins...d_Gesellschaft

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******


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    I'm guessing it's a less-insidious reason regarding free time for the mods. When they have time to moderate the forums as they wish, they'll engage in much thread-locking as such. When they're busy with other tasks and their personal lives, the forums remain quite unregulated.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I share your concern DreQo. I have found that all the firearms forums I enjoy I end up wandering away from because of a rigid focus on firearms. I formerly spent most of my time on car forums and there were always places to talk about just stuff that interested the members. I developed many "real life" friendships on those forums, and there are people I met there who live hundreds or thousands of miles away whom I speak to on a regular basis, we visit each other or meet in certain places if one of us is traveling somewhere near the other and there are get togethers that draw people from around the country because the friendships become so close over the years. Friendships of that level do not form from remaining forum purpose specific. Most of those bonds formed over time in general discussion type areas of the forum where we discussed stuff going on in our lives, other interests beyond the forum purpose and often offered help and support to each other in all manner of things.

    I would be thrilled to see an area of OCDO forums for non-firearm related topics. I don't think that such an area is "mission creep". If anything, it allows visitors to our forum see that we are not all single issue, one-dimensional recreation, firearm owner stereotypes. Visitors will see that we have families we enjoy, we scuba, work on cars, remodel our houses, think about raising children, getting married, celebrate special family events and occasions, go to school, write blogs, enjoy music and are generally just regular people. Without such an area, not only does it preclude we, the members from getting to know one another on other levels, it also gives biased visitors the impression that all we on OCDO care about or talk about is guns, gun rights, self-defense and assorted other topics that makes us appear one-dimensional. Therefore I submit that a non-firearms section actually better accomplishes our mission of helping people realize that we who believe strongly in the 2nd Amendment and the exercise of that God given right are just regular people who are the anti's neighbors, friends, business acquiantences and that aside from our strong assertion of our 2nd Amendment rights we are no different than they.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    OK, first off. Screw the semantics lessons and let's get down to brass tacks.

    Can we or can we not have discussions about areas of common interest that help us as members develop and maintain friendships with other members outside the limited focus of open carry?

    Can we talk about fishing? Maybe a few members like to fish and open carry while fishing, maybe they'd like to set up an outing if they live in or travel to the same areas.

    Can we talk about camping? Here in California, we can open carry loaded atcampsites, because they are our temporary domicile.

    Can we have the FREEDOM to form common bonds in areas that are not primarily Open Carry centered?

    You can take the Community vs Freedom arguement all the way from absolute conformity to the communal norm, or all the way to absolute anarchy with everyone free to do whatever they please. But that is not the reality of the situation.

    We share a commonality of interest in open carry. That to a certain extent makes us a community. By limiting the general discussion toopen carry only, we are being forced into a community of conformists focusing solely on one aspect of our lives.

    We should be allowed to expand our discussion in one area on the forum to help expand our common interests.

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    deepdiver wrote:
    I share your concern DreQo. I have found that all the firearms forums I enjoy I end up wandering away from because of a rigid focus on firearms. I formerly spent most of my time on car forums and there were always places to talk about just stuff that interested the members. I developed many "real life" friendships on those forums, and there are people I met there who live hundreds or thousands of miles away whom I speak to on a regular basis, we visit each other or meet in certain places if one of us is traveling somewhere near the other and there are get togethers that draw people from around the country because the friendships become so close over the years. Friendships of that level do not form from remaining forum purpose specific. Most of those bonds formed over time in general discussion type areas of the forum where we discussed stuff going on in our lives, other interests beyond the forum purpose and often offered help and support to each other in all manner of things.

    I would be thrilled to see an area of OCDO forums for non-firearm related topics. I don't think that such an area is "mission creep". If anything, it allows visitors to our forum see that we are not all single issue, one-dimensional recreation, firearm owner stereotypes. Visitors will see that we have families we enjoy, we scuba, work on cars, remodel our houses, think about raising children, getting married, celebrate special family events and occasions, go to school, write blogs, enjoy music and are generally just regular people. Without such an area, not only does it preclude we, the members from getting to know one another on other levels, it also gives biased visitors the impression that all we on OCDO care about or talk about is guns, gun rights, self-defense and assorted other topics that makes us appear one-dimensional. Therefore I submit that a non-firearms section actually better accomplishes our mission of helping people realize that we who believe strongly in the 2nd Amendment and the exercise of that God given right are just regular people who are the anti's neighbors, friends, business acquiantences and that aside from our strong assertion of our 2nd Amendment rights we are no different than they.
    +1

    I thought that was the general idea behind the "General Discussion" forum, though. I mean, laws and current were for News & Political Alerts; discussion about guns for Selecting a Handgun; discussion about open carry in general in Open Carry Questions and Why Open Carry; and state-level stuff in their respective forums. I can't think of many firearms-related topics that don't fit into those other forums. So... what is the point of General Discussion? Surely it can't be for exclusively firearms-related or open carry-related threads, as those are better placed in other forums. The only thing left is general discussion... kind of like what the title of General Discussion implies.

    Granted, unless things get significantly worse here, I'll be sticking around, as it still seems leaps and bounds better than other firearms forums I've visited.

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    I would be inclined togive the moderators some room. They're the agents of the owner of the board.

    For myself, althoughmoderators havedone some things I might have done differently, I've seen nothing I felt I had to complain about. Or even had standing to complain about. Its John's board. I'm here at his invitation. I don't consider that John or his moderators owe me any explanations for their policies.

    I guess having standing to complain isthe real issue. I don't think any of us really do have standing to complain. Free forum, and so forth. I think the most standing anybody really has is tomake helpful suggestions about how moderating could be done better. Or inquire politely about why a certainmoderation action was taken.

    Me, I'd take the helpful suggestion route.

    Except with Mike, of course. After threatening to make me walk the plank, he's susceptible to open mutiny as far as I'm concerned.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I can only speak for myself, but I would say yes, of course!That's the purpose of the General Discussion forum and it's something we've been asking for for a while and we're glad to have it! Deepdiver, I agree and loved hanging out on my car forums for the same reason. We became dear friends and more like family than anything else.

    As to mods being more active when they have more free time, absolutely correct. My home business is temp on hold due to our move across the country and I do have more free time as a result. (and I HATE soap operas! lol)

    I cannot speak for others, but I will always make a note on anything I've edited with my initials BC and it will show "EDITED BY:" at the bottom. And I always leave the last post before closing a thread, so everyone knows why. As for others, just ask them!

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    This community is not free to bash First Class Citizens - those that can and will be armed where we all may not be. This community is required to tolerate the yapping of sheeple-dogs though there are presumably no sheeple here.
    Oh, lots of room to manuever, yet.

    Its quite possible to bash police on this board. I just gotthrough doing some bashing yesterday. The key is who and how you bash. If you bash all police bymaking generalizations,you will get moderated. However, if you bash exactly only those police who break already-agreed rules, for example,4th Amendment case law, you can bash all day. Of course, I'm changing the meaning of bashing. Bashing is the generalized complaining and attacking. Just keep it focused on the exact points that need to be made, about the exact cops it needs to be applied to.

    Also, we've got lots of room to be intolerant of sheeple-dogs. Just because we are asked to be polite and civil doesn't mean we have to be tolerant. It just means we have to find a polite and civil way to be intolerant of intolerable posts. It just means we can't spout off our anger in shotgun blasts that also pattern wider than our necessary target. Lots of room to manuever rhetorically there.

    Above all, realize that just because certain posters won't go into agreement with you, the rest of the community can still see their posts and recognize them for what they are. I really don't care if any given sheeple-dog or First Class citizen agrees with me on this board. I am completely certainthat if he uses an ad hominem attack, relies on authority, refuses to answer, or gets angry, almost everybody will recognize it.

    Its a sort of win-win situation. I've got the Founders and the deepest yearnings of the human soul for freedom on my side. I can't lose except by being wrong about my facts, logic,or law. When myrhetoricaladversary corrects me on those,it only makes me stronger.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Well from my perspective, threads that need to be moderated come in waves. People complain if nothing is done about certain threads, others complain if I lock threads.

    I'm trying to allow some latitude but some folks take it to far and get way off topic. Also John has been wanting to cut down the mission creep. Specifically, this is in regard to threads about LEO bad behavior that isn't directly related to OCers. So unless it involves an OC incident, I'm going to close it.

    jpierce wrote:
    I think we have to be careful of mission creep. This thread would be better served on a forum dedicated to general police abuse of power issues.

    Even the freedom and liberty topics on OCDO should be gun related in some fashion.

    As I have said before, the press is increasingly using OCDO as a resource. With that, we have also been tagged on several occasions as having anti-LEO tendencies and that detracts from our message.

    I am going to go ahead and close this thread and any others that seem to be too far off target. Please feel free to PM me if you think I am off-base.
    As for changing thread titles, when someone posts a vague title or one that doesn't really reflect what the thread is about, I will change it. I think this is fair, so as not to waste readers time.

    Some think I should lock the thread about SCUBA diving, but in my mind meetup threads are always on topic, even if they are centered around a non firearms related activity.



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    longwatch wrote:
    Well from my perspective, threads that need to be moderated come in waves. People complain if nothing is done about certain threads, others complain if I lock threads.

    I'm trying to allow some latitude but some folks take it to far and get way off topic. Also John has been wanting to cut down the mission creep. Specifically, this is in regard to threads about LEO bad behavior that isn't directly related to OCers. So unless it involves an OC incident, I'm going to close it.

    As for changing thread titles, when someone posts a vague title or one that doesn't really reflect what the thread is about, I will change it. I think this is fair, so as not to waste readers time.

    Some think I should lock the thread about SCUBA diving, but in my mind meetup threads are always on topic, even if they are centered around a non firearms related activity.
    There are times when a thread becomes very popular but then runs in circlesoutliving it usefulness. Members get heated over the topic and itbecomes obvious there will be no compromise.

    So in order to cool things down the thread is locked. I completely agree with this.

    Some threads are improper or vague and need to be handled. The Scuba thread is not gun or OC related however I agree with LW that it is one that may cause a bunch of members to get together where they can meet up and talk guns.

    As far as cop bashing.... I do not mind something that has a purpose and is factual. But manypostsarenothing more than someones negative opinionthat has no significant value here.

    Some were posting anything LEO related that had absolutely nothing to do with guns. Just LEO activity thatmade the news that most of the time is shown in a bad light.

    I am here to talk guns and laws. I am an adult and I know that in anygroup there are good and bad people. I really do not need to be bombarded with every negative thing someone may have done.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    Personally I'd like to see more OT discussion. The forum gets stale without it. +1 to deepdivers points. On the other hand I have seen OT ruin other forums to the point of them being shut down. I have yet to see a forum where all the members thought the moderators "are doing a great job".

    If leo229 can tolerate being here, I can tolerate him being here without bashing him.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    General Discussion
    Use this area for discussions that are somewhat off-topic or that do not fit anywhere else
    And that's all I got to say 'bout that.

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    savery wrote:
    General Discussion
    Use this area for discussions that are somewhat off-topic or that do not fit anywhere else
    And that's all I got to say 'bout that.
    So why are moderators locking threads just because they don't have anything to do with guns? (example: the scuba thread, where longwatch not only changed the title of the thread, but then locked it)

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    DreQo wrote:
    savery wrote:
    General Discussion
    Use this area for discussions that are somewhat off-topic or that do not fit anywhere else
    And that's all I got to say 'bout that.
    So why are moderators locking threads just because they don't have anything to do with guns? (example: the scuba thread, where longwatch not only changed the title of the thread, but then locked it)
    Now that one... I don't understand myself. I just quoted the title and tag line of this particular forum....

  16. #16
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    I wouldn't expect you to have the answer to that one. I'd like to hear from someone who does have that answer.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    See my post above. I think you will find the answers you seek there. I'm willing to take feedback but I believe that the General forum is not going to work well if it becomes the anything goes area. As for the SCUBA thread, it was closed because there wasn't enough effort made to making a meetup happen.

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    longwatch wrote:
    See my post above. I think you will find the answers you seek there. I'm willing to take feedback but I believe that the General forum is not going to work well if it becomes the anything goes area. As for the SCUBA thread, it was closed because there wasn't enough effort made to making a meetup happen.
    Excuse me? You gave it all of one weekend to develop into a scheduledmeet??? Besides, the conversation was NOT about meeting up, it was about how it seems that those who share the interest of guns seem to share other interests as well, like diving.

    So YOU don't think it's going to work well? Would you care to back that statement with logical reasoning? Or is it just a hunch? Does it matter to you that everyone that has commented on the topic so far has agreed that it is silly and trivial to remove every thread that doesn't say "gun" somewhere in the subject line?

    I propose we give ourselves a chance to leave the General Discussion area open for...:shock:general discussion! As long as the discussions remain civil and appropriate, I see no reason not to. There have already been many positive reasons listed abovefor doing so, and I've yet to see one legitimate reason to justify the current random power abuses.

    So Longwatch, since you've been the only moderator in question thus far, what say you?

  19. #19
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    LAST POST ON THE SCBA THREAD

    LONGWATCH wrote:

    DreQo wrote:

    longwatch wrote:
    I kept this thread open as a meetup thread for members based around a diving trip, so if this becomes just a SCUBA chat thread I'm going to close it again.
    OR how about you could get off it?? :?
    Or how about I close the thread as off topic.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Wow, this looks to me like he locked the thread as a vindictive act just because someone challenged his authority.





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    DreQo wrote:

    longwatch wrote:
    I kept this thread open as a meetup thread for members based around a diving trip, so if this becomes just a SCUBA chat thread I'm going to close it again.
    OR how about you could get off it?? :?
    longwatch wrote: Or how about I close the thread as off topic.

    [line]

    The moderator clearly identified what to do to keep the thread from being closed!!!

    The moderator'sjob is to keep things in order and on track. LW can bea little quick to lock threads and does not give many nudges before he actually does it.

    In this caseLW did give notice and allowed the thread to remain open but DQ felt the need tomake a commentand challenge the moderator. HissuggestingLW not come back was rude andsimply not an option.

    DQ was wrong and his actions of challenging the moderator ultimately caused the thread to be closed.

  21. #21
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    lol oh so it was my fault? I'll take that. LW is being a jerk, nitpicking over what constitutes a legitimate discussion in his opinion, and using his clicky-clicky powers to jerk people around, so I called him on it. I stand by my statement that he needs to get off it. No one, not even longwatch, has been able to provide a good reason why we shouldn't be able to discuss other topics.

    And ya know, I'm not at all surprised that LEO 229 has, like usual, readily mounted the side contrary to everyone else. That doesn't really bother me, though.

    What REALLY ticks me off is that he called me DQ. NOW I'M CRAVING ICE-CREAM!!



  22. #22
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    DreQo wrote:
    And ya know, I'm not at all surprised that LEO 229 has, like usual, readily mounted the side contrary to everyone else. That doesn't really bother me, though.
    Careful, talk about LEO's the wrong way and this baby will be closed without warning or explanation.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/8522.html
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    DreQo wrote:
    lol oh so it was my fault? I'll take that. LW is being a jerk, nitpicking over what constitutes a legitimate discussion in his opinion, and using his clicky-clicky powers to jerk people around, so I called him on it. I stand by my statement that he needs to get off it. No one, not even longwatch, has been able to provide a good reason why we shouldn't be able to discuss other topics.

    And ya know, I'm not at all surprised that LEO 229 has, like usual, readily mounted the side contrary to everyone else. That doesn't really bother me, though.

    What REALLY ticks me off is that he called me DQ. NOW I'M CRAVING ICE-CREAM!!

    Don't take everything so personally, my friend. I would suggest you follow the adage an armed society is a polite one.

    I'm sorry you disagree but this forum is here primarily for open carry and secondarily for the RKBA and freedom and liberty discussions. Certain topics detract if not hurt our primary focus and mission. Hence they are closed. Here is the rub, some of those topics are closely related. So when they are closed, I get complaints that other less related topics are allowed to live.

    Case in point the SCUBA thread. I can justify any meetup thread, because surely someone will be OCing, and meetups have made the forum stronger. Unfortunately, if it's just a general chat about a topic as you say it was, I can't let it go on and have any credibility when I close more on point threads.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    DreQo wrote:
    And ya know, I'm not at all surprised that LEO 229 has, like usual, readily mounted the side contrary to everyone else. That doesn't really bother me, though.
    Careful, talk about LEO's the wrong way and this baby will be closed without warning or explanation.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/8522.html
    It shouldn't require much explaination when it's the 4th thread on a incident thats degraded into name calling by both sides.

  25. #25
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Search for "Lon Horiuchi". There were not four, there were three. (Other than this one, now.) Two remain open.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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