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Thread: Refusal to be disarmed - Is that a right?

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    So, a couple of posts got me thinking...

    Do you have the right to refuse to be disarmed when stopped or detained, or whatever it's being called nowadays. (Pesky legal mumbo-jumbo.... )

    I suppose there may be a difference between being pulled over, and being approached on the street....

    When can I say "no" to "I'm going to need to hold onto that, for xxxx reason*"?

    ("Officer safety" seems to be the most cited reason, though what about personal safety of a citizen?)

    And FGS, don't let this turn into some I hate cops, I hate this, I hate that thread. It's early/late, and I don't want to come back to a bunch of arguing and infighting.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    I would verbally object to the invasion. (I don't consent to a search or seizure of me or my effects, regardless of your reasoning.)

    After the factI would contact my attorney and IA and provide each with a copy of my voice recordings.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    AbNo wrote:
    ("Officer safety" seems to be the most cited reason, though what about personal safety of a citizen?)
    I'm all for cops being safe on the job, but I have to say that my safety is just as important and once a cop determines I'm not a threat my weapon should never be taken, or if it is, it should be returned before the conversation is even over.

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    Agent19 wrote:
    I would verbally object to the invasion. (I don't consent to a search or seizure of me or my effects, regardless of your reasoning.)

    After the factI would contact my attorney and IA and provide each with a copy of my voice recordings.
    I would also explicitly state the you regard the disarming as a search of your:
    -holster
    -weapon
    -anything else connected or touched while disarming, esp. your person.

    I wouldn't put up a physical resistance, but definitely state that he isn't just disarming you. Makes your case more non-RKBA if you're in Alexandria, China, or whereever....

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    Simple.

    Never "consent"
    Never "resist"



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    AbNo wrote:
    Do you have the right to refuse to be disarmed when stopped or detained, or whatever it's being called nowadays. (Pesky legal mumbo-jumbo.... )

    I suppose there may be a difference between being pulled over, and being approached on the street....
    You can and should refuse. However, like the previous posters said, don't physically resist.

    Justrefuseconsent to any search or seizure.*

    If it turns out they didn't have legal justification, your complaint would have that much more seriousness. Hunt on the web for the video "Busted" by flexyourrights.org

    Realize that "pesky mumbo-jumbo" is where the action is. Knowing it cold and knowing the case law well just means knowing your rights. Your 4th Amendment rights are refined by case law. If you want to know the fine points, you will have to read court opinions.

    Court opinions on 4th Amendment issues are actually fairly easy to read. Not too many legal words. Google helps quickly get the definitions for the occasional legal term. In Virginia, you can read court opinions at the VA Court of Appeals website.



    *It might not be smart to declarerefused consent to ALL searches and seizures at a sobriety checkpoint. You might want to qualify it a little by refusing all searches and seizures except chemical tests required by implied consent, the refusal of which would jeopardize your driver's license.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    AbNo wrote:
    Do you have the right to refuse to be disarmed when stopped or detained, or whatever it's being called nowadays. (Pesky legal mumbo-jumbo.... )

    I suppose there may be a difference between being pulled over, and being approached on the street....
    *It might not be smart to declarerefused consent to ALL searches and seizures at a sobriety checkpoint. You might want to qualify it a little by refusing all searches and seizures except chemical tests required by implied consent, the refusal of which would jeopardize your driver's license.

    I'm no expert, but I *think* you can refuse any of the field sobriety tests, along with the breathalyzer they use in the field. I thin its refusing to use the one back at the station that will get your liscense suspended for one year automatically. Guilty until proven innocent.The DUI laws are insane. Talk about walking all over the constitution. We can all thank MADD for that.


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    Do you have the right to refuse? Would this "right" exclude criminals after they have committed an armed robbery? How is the LEO going to know?

    Unless you are breaking the lawor there is some reason to detain you would there need to be a reason to disarm you.

    Now YOU know you have not broken any laws but what if you "fit the description" that day. The officer now has a legal reason to stop, disarm, and hold you there until you have been cleared as the wrong guy. You could legally be placed into investigative detention too.

    A LEO will often times try to keep the encounter consensual so that ifyou are not the right guy...YOU are not put through too much. The last the the LEO wants to do is go hands on with you if you are not even going to be the person they are looking for.

    Is it worth risk being shot over an attempt to be disarmed?

    I do not think so!!

    If you feel your being disarmed was wrong.... you can always contact IA and Fox 5 to protest.


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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Simple.

    Never "consent"
    Never "resist"

    Only post in this thread worth remembering so far.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Simple.

    Never "consent"
    Never "resist"

    Only post in this thread worth remembering so far.
    Suuuuure. Make a comment like that and go off-line.

    Hit-and-run criticism. That's what it iz. :P
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  11. #11
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    Do you have the right to refuse?
    Yes. Always. The cops are gonna do whatever they feel like anyway. As Pa. Patriot says, "never consent."

    Would this "right" exclude criminals after they have committed an armed robbery?
    This "right" would include everybody, especially criminals. Isn't that the whole point?

    How is the LEO going to know?
    How is that my problem? He's gonna make it mine whether or not I did anything. Besides, cops have to follow rules and laws just like I do. Ain't no harm in making them follow the rules, is there?

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Is it worth risk being shot over an attempt to be disarmed?
    I hope that anyone able to become a cop would have enough sense not to shoot someone for refusing a search.

    Cop: Let me go ahead and hang on to that firearm for you while we chat.
    Me: Actually I'd prefer to hang on to it; and by the way, am I being detained?
    Cop: No, but I'm going to need to check your firearm for...(insert reason here).
    Me: Well since I'm not being detained, I'll be on my way. Have a nice day officer.
    Cop: (Draws weapon) Stop right there, hands on your head! Your under arrest for refusing a search. (or worse) Bang! :what:



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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Do you have the right to refuse? Would this "right" exclude criminals after they have committed an armed robbery? How is the LEO going to know?

    Unless you are breaking the lawor there is some reason to detain you would there need to be a reason to disarm you.

    Now YOU know you have not broken any laws but what if you "fit the description" that day. The officer now has a legal reason to stop, disarm, and hold you there until you have been cleared as the wrong guy. You could legally be placed into investigative detention too.

    A LEO will often times try to keep the encounter consensual so that ifyou are not the right guy...YOU are not put through too much. The last the the LEO wants to do is go hands on with you if you are not even going to be the person they are looking for.

    Is it worth risk being shot over an attempt to be disarmed?

    I do not think so!!

    If you feel your being disarmed was wrong.... you can always contact IA and Fox 5 to protest.
    Gotta bust your chops for one second one, LEO....

    Whatever happened to presumption of innocence?

    From the sound of things, you're saying that it's SOP to presume any and everyone is guilty just because they are approached by one of your coworkers. :?

    At least, I hope that's not what you're saying, because from the sound of things, you're saying that officers are paranoid ("Everyone's a criminal, except for you and me, and I'm getting real suspicious about you."), and trigger happy.

    Is there something going on in the ranks that the regular folks don't know about?

    I mean, I know you live in FF County and all, and we KNOW how crazy they were over there for a while! (joke!)

    (Oh, and the "legal mumbo jumbo" was the "detained versus stopped", I can never remember which is which)
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    AbNo wrote:
    SNIP (Oh, and the "legal mumbo jumbo" was the "detained versus stopped", I can never remember which is which)
    It seems like sometimes they mean the same thing, sometimes they don't.

    Generally, stops--foot or traffic--are detentions. It is my understanding you have no choicein the matter, the officer is exercising his authority todemand or keep youphysically located where he wantswhile he conducts hisinvestigation of you.

    But, I've got this idea that some traffic checkpoints, althoughconsidered stops, are not considered detentions. I'm not sure where I got this info anymore, and I've not had time to dig further to sort it out, so don't take it as worth anything.Neither does thischange the compulsory aspect.If an officer holds out his hand for you to stop, you'd better do it.

    Either way, I'd just use "stop" and "detention" interchangeably, unless Iwanted to distinguish between the two for some reason.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Is it worth risk being shot over an attempt to be disarmed?
    I hope that anyone able to become a cop would have enough sense not to shoot someone for refusing a search.

    Cop: Let me go ahead and hang on to that firearm for you while we chat.
    Me: Actually I'd prefer to hang on to it; and by the way, am I being detained?
    Cop: No, but I'm going to need to check your firearm for...(insert reason here).
    Me: Well since I'm not being detained, I'll be on my way. Have a nice day officer.
    Cop: (Draws weapon) Stop right there, hands on your head! Your under arrest for refusing a search. (or worse) Bang! :what:
    Wait a minute.... why did you go from disarmed to search?

    I was referring to a struggle over a gun and a perceived risk of danger. Not a search.

    Please try to keep up and not stray.


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    AbNo wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Do you have the right to refuse? Would this "right" exclude criminals after they have committed an armed robbery? How is the LEO going to know?

    Unless you are breaking the lawor there is some reason to detain you would there need to be a reason to disarm you.

    Now YOU know you have not broken any laws but what if you "fit the description" that day. The officer now has a legal reason to stop, disarm, and hold you there until you have been cleared as the wrong guy. You could legally be placed into investigative detention too.

    A LEO will often times try to keep the encounter consensual so that ifyou are not the right guy...YOU are not put through too much. The last the the LEO wants to do is go hands on with you if you are not even going to be the person they are looking for.

    Is it worth risk being shot over an attempt to be disarmed?

    I do not think so!!

    If you feel your being disarmed was wrong.... you can always contact IA and Fox 5 to protest.
    Gotta bust your chops for one second one, LEO....

    Whatever happened to presumption of innocence?

    From the sound of things, you're saying that it's SOP to presume any and everyone is guilty just because they are approached by one of your coworkers. :?

    At least, I hope that's not what you're saying, because from the sound of things, you're saying that officers are paranoid ("Everyone's a criminal, except for you and me, and I'm getting real suspicious about you."), and trigger happy.

    Is there something going on in the ranks that the regular folks don't know about?

    I mean, I know you live in FF County and all, and we KNOW how crazy they were over there for a while! (joke!)

    (Oh, and the "legal mumbo jumbo" was the "detained versus stopped", I can never remember which is which)
    Ahh... I do not decide innocence or guilt. I determine likeliness that you committed a crime and take you before the man to decide. :P

    Earlier...I was talking about a criminals and if they had the same "rights to refuse"police orders.

    Do the police have the authority to order a guy that just killed someone to drop the gun and be disarmed?


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    ufcfanvt wrote:
    Agent19 wrote:
    I would verbally object to the invasion. (I don't consent to a search or seizure of me or my effects, regardless of your reasoning.)

    After the factI would contact my attorney and IA and provide each with a copy of my voice recordings.
    I would also explicitly state the you regard the disarming as a search of your:
    -holster
    -weapon
    -anything else connected or touched while disarming, esp. your person.

    I wouldn't put up a physical resistance, but definitely state that he isn't just disarming you. Makes your case more non-RKBA if you're in Alexandria, China, or whereever....
    I think explicitly stating gun/holster etc.... would then give the LEO the idea that everything else is fair game.:P


    "I don't consent to a search or seizure of me or my effects", covers everything in my opinion.

    This battle would be better fought in court not the streets as I stated in my 1st post.

    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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