Man killed trying to stop Starbucks tip jar thieves

swillden · Mar 7, 2008

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compmanio365 wrote:

To me, his life isworth absolutely nothing the moment he forced his way into my home, and if he's stupid enough to do anything besides making a 180 and running like hell, he's going to get what he deserves......

I respect your opinion, but I can't agree with it.

Few crimes are capital, and there's a very good reason for that. People who are basically decent can and sometimes do end up doing really stupid things. I have a very good friend who has felony convictions for burglary as well as a bunch of drug-related offenses. Believe it or not, he's also one of the finest people I know. His battle and eventual win over drug addiction made him into a man of uncompromising integrity and honesty.

25 years after his convictions, he's managed to get his record cleared up, to the point that he has a concealed firearm permit. He's also raised three excellent boys -- who *never* had a chance to get in trouble, their dad made 100% certain of that -- and is an active and respected member of his community. Professionally, he's a respected software engineer who commands consulting fees of $250 per hour, and whose clients are glad they can get him even at that rate.

If it had been YOUR house he'd burglarized, he might very well be dead. Given that he was high at the time, he might very well not have turned and run.

Just because someone is making bad decisions now doesn't mean they won't ever learn the error of their ways, and it certainly doesn't mean their lives have no value.

If I can retreat, I'll retreat. If handing over my wallet will make the mugger go away, I'll hand it over. Things are just things and can be replaced, people can't. If it seems likely that I or someone else is going to be injured, then I'll shoot, and I'll shoot the way I was trained -- center mass until the threat stops, and in all probability the aggressor will die and I'll end up wishing he hadn't forced me to do that.

I know people who've killed and were really messed up by it even though they were soldiers and it was the right thing to do. I know others who've killed and been unaffected by it. Which would I be? I have no way of knowing and don't want to know. What I do know is that I really don't want to live with having killed someone when I DIDN'T have to do it.

Tomahawk · Mar 7, 2008

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My 2¢on the "what if" here: If I am standing in line a Starbucks and I see some guy swipe the tip jar on the way out the door, I walk over to the window and see if I can get a good description of the dirtbags and the vehicle they are driving away in, including the plate. Then I go and write it down while it's fresh and tell the barrista what I just saw and that they should call the police. Then I give the barrista a tip, sit down, and enjoy my coffee. And keep my pistol in it's holster. It's only for dire emergencies, not shoplifters.

ggd276 · Mar 7, 2008

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leo shoots at cars for this

flyerone · Mar 7, 2008

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As far as the burglary scenario goes, I was burglarized while I was away on a camping trip, they ransacked my house, killed my fish, poured bleech on all my furniture, probably young gang banger types. It is a very emotional and invasive thing having your domain destroyed and can mentally stay with you forever. I will not hesitate to shoot if confronted by a burgler while I am at home, I wont go through that again. I will always have an alarm on any house that I live in, once you have it happen to you, you'll understand.

swillden · Mar 7, 2008

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flyerone wrote:

once you have it happen to you, you'll understand.

It's happened to me. Not quite the same; all that happened to me was that stuff was stolen, no vandalism and not much breakage.

I still wouldn't shoot unless I felt like I or my family were at risk.

deepdiver · Mar 7, 2008

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Listening to St. Louis talk radio today and reading updated stories my understanding is that they did not "run him down" per se the way the original story sounded. My understanding is that he chased them outside and when they got in the car he opened the drivers door, the guy threw it in reverse knocking down the victim with the door and drove off. It doesn't seem that they knew they had really hurt the man. I'm not justifying their actions or the theft by any means. It's just that my impression from initial news stories was that the man chased them outside and they pointed the car at him and ran him down. That does not appear to be how it went down based on current info.

As to what I would have done? I also would have likely chased them. I would not have drawn down on them unless they did something to put my life or another's in danger. If for example I were cornered and they tried to run me down with the car I would not hesitate to shoot thorugh the windshield at the driver (and I do carry Corbon DPX rds starting 3rd down in my carry mags in case I need extra penetration). But I would not use my firearm in a classic "stop or I'll shoot" action. I also don't think I would have yanked their car door open on the off chance that I would find myself facing a pistol while off balance. So I would likely have chased them into the parking lot. If I didn't catch them before they started to drive off I would have done my best to be a good witness with make, model and license number.

Citizen · Mar 7, 2008

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flyerone wrote:

As far as the burglary scenario goes, I was burglarized while I was away on a camping trip, they ransacked my house, killed my fish, poured bleech on all my furniture, probably young gang banger types. It is a very emotional and invasive thing having your domain destroyed and can mentally stay with you forever. I will not hesitate to shoot if confronted by a burgler while I am at home, I wont go through that again. I will always have an alarm on any house that I live in, once you have it happen to you, you'll understand.

Been burgled. I understand.

All but the automatic shoot-the-burglar part. You'll want to live in a state with Castle Doctrine. If you live in a state that doesn't have Castle Doctrine or prohibits lethal force to defend property, you might end up in a worse nightmare. And lots more expensive in legal fees.

For myself, I won't be shooting unless presented with immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of grave bodily injury or death. Ipersonally can't see killing someone over some burgled items.

TechnoWeenie · Mar 8, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

Not seeing this as really gun related so to help keep it on topic for the forum....

Do you think the victim would have been justified in shooting the driver who was about to run him over? Or should he jump aside since it was only a tip jar?

I think he should've jumped on the hood, kneeled down, and unloaded an entire clip into the driver..

WOOPS! Only officers can do that, my bad....

I would GTF outta the way, drawing and firing isn't going to stop a 4000 lb. object in it's tracks, it's STILL going to be coming at me/towards me, but now it's got NO direction, it could kill some old lady crossing the street.

GTF out of the way, save yourself, THEN give chase (or not).

deepdiver · Mar 8, 2008

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While somewhat OT, I'll respond to the shooting the burglar issue (and yes I have been burglarized before and it is a horrible feeling of personal invasion). I am fortunate to live in a state with a strong castle doctrine that not only removes any obligation to retreat but also bars the criminal or any other related party from suing me if I use force deemed legal by the authorities.

If someone is willing to break into my house when my family or I am there, that person is by virtue of their willingness to be so brazen already an imminent threat. I will act immediately to ensure that their ability to do any harm is eliminated as quickly as possible by some form of incapacitation or because they have fled the premises. I would prefer they flee because frankly, I don't want to deal with the mess if they don't. They may only be there to quickly grab a fencable item and run, but I am not going to take that chance. Forced entry = imminent threat to me and the law is on my side here on that issue.

.40 Cal · Mar 10, 2008

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I'm such a good shot, i would take out all 4 tires with one shot, then I'd yell, "Citizen's arrest",take them personally down to the station and say, "book 'em, sarge".:quirky

imperialism2024 · Mar 10, 2008

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.40 Cal wrote:

I'm such a good shot, i would take out all 4 tires with one shot, then I'd yell, "Citizen's arrest",take them personally down to the station and say, "book 'em, sarge".:quirky

But that's only after you use your "element of surprise" to wrestle your .22 silenced pistol with 1000-round magazine and 32x scope out of its tactical rectal holster.

deepdiver · Mar 10, 2008

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imperialism2024 wrote:

.40 Cal wrote:

I'm such a good shot, i would take out all 4 tires with one shot, then I'd yell, "Citizen's arrest",take them personally down to the station and say, "book 'em, sarge".:quirky

Click to expand...

But that's only after you use your "element of surprise" to wrestle your .22 silenced pistol with 1000-round magazine and 32x scope out of its tactical rectal holster.

Dammit, Imperialism, my laptop needs a new keyboard!

:lol:

.40 Cal · Mar 11, 2008

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That was too funny!

CrossBow33 · Mar 11, 2008

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deepdiver wrote:

While somewhat OT, I'll respond to the shooting the burglar issue (and yes I have been burglarized before and it is a horrible feeling of personal invasion). I am fortunate to live in a state with a strong castle doctrine that not only removes any obligation to retreat but also bars the criminal or any other related party from suing me if I use force deemed legal by the authorities.

If someone is willing to break into my house when my family or I am there, that person is by virtue of their willingness to be so brazen already an imminent threat. I will act immediately to ensure that their ability to do any harm is eliminated as quickly as possible by some form of incapacitation or because they have fled the premises. I would prefer they flee because frankly, I don't want to deal with the mess if they don't. They may only be there to quickly grab a fencable item and run, but I am not going to take that chance. Forced entry = imminent threat to me and the law is on my side here on that issue.

On the one hand, it's just stuff and you can't get blood stains out of a decent oriental carpet. On the other hand, there's no shortage of people.

I might give an intruder a "one potato"...maybe. Otherwise...what he said!

Doug Huffman · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:

.40 Cal wrote:

I'm such a good shot, i would take out all 4 tires with one shot, then I'd yell, "Citizen's arrest",take them personally down to the station and say, "book 'em, sarge".:quirky

Click to expand...

But that's only after you use your "element of surprise" to wrestle your .22 silenced pistol with 1000-round magazine and 32x scope out of its tactical rectal holster.

Another eXtreme Retention Systems (tm) product. Thank you for the idea!

Currently our only - but verrry successful - product is the Trailer-ball Driver Retention(tm) device. It is a trailer hitch ball mounted in an autoracing seat shell. It works on the principle that the more scared the driver using one is, the tighter he grips. When the event is over then he can relax, knowing that even having been scared shitless, the ball has prevented any unsanitary events.

expvideo · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

What scares me is knowing that if I was there I would have done the same thing. I couldn't watch some punk kids take off with a tip jar without trying to stop them. I guess it's my strong sense of right and wrong, or just wanting to do the right thing. Certainly not to "try to be the hero", but I think deep down we all know that we would want to stop them if we could. That's what makes us good people.

I also know that I would have been armed, but I never would have drawn a weapon over a tip jar. It's worth trying to stop them, but it's not worth shooting at them.

So yeah. Glad I wasn't there, cause that would have been me on the news.

expvideo · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

swillden wrote:

compmanio365 wrote:

To me, his life isworth absolutely nothing the moment he forced his way into my home, and if he's stupid enough to do anything besides making a 180 and running like hell, he's going to get what he deserves......

Click to expand...

I respect your opinion, but I can't agree with it.

Few crimes are capital, and there's a very good reason for that. People who are basically decent can and sometimes do end up doing really stupid things. I have a very good friend who has felony convictions for burglary as well as a bunch of drug-related offenses. Believe it or not, he's also one of the finest people I know. His battle and eventual win over drug addiction made him into a man of uncompromising integrity and honesty.

25 years after his convictions, he's managed to get his record cleared up, to the point that he has a concealed firearm permit. He's also raised three excellent boys -- who *never* had a chance to get in trouble, their dad made 100% certain of that -- and is an active and respected member of his community. Professionally, he's a respected software engineer who commands consulting fees of $250 per hour, and whose clients are glad they can get him even at that rate.

If it had been YOUR house he'd burglarized, he might very well be dead. Given that he was high at the time, he might very well not have turned and run.

Just because someone is making bad decisions now doesn't mean they won't ever learn the error of their ways, and it certainly doesn't mean their lives have no value.

If I can retreat, I'll retreat. If handing over my wallet will make the mugger go away, I'll hand it over. Things are just things and can be replaced, people can't. If it seems likely that I or someone else is going to be injured, then I'll shoot, and I'll shoot the way I was trained -- center mass until the threat stops, and in all probability the aggressor will die and I'll end up wishing he hadn't forced me to do that.

I know people who've killed and were really messed up by it even though they were soldiers and it was the right thing to do. I know others who've killed and been unaffected by it. Which would I be? I have no way of knowing and don't want to know. What I do know is that I really don't want to live with having killed someone when I DIDN'T have to do it.

I'll tell you what I told my fiancee. If anyone comes through that door but me, kill them. Don't hesitate, don't worry about whether they are a good person underneath, don't think about them at all. You belong here and they don't. They are only here for one reason. Your safety is far more important than their safety. Point the gun at them and pull the trigger until they stop coming toward you, because if they get to you they won't hesitate.

Man killed trying to stop Starbucks tip jar thieves

swillden

Regular Member

Tomahawk

Regular Member

ggd276

Regular Member

flyerone

New member

swillden

Regular Member

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran

Citizen

Founder's Club Member

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran

.40 Cal

State Researcher

imperialism2024

Regular Member

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran

.40 Cal

State Researcher

CrossBow33

Regular Member

Doug Huffman

Banned

expvideo

Regular Member

expvideo

Regular Member