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Thread: Press 'ignore' terrorist stopped by armed student

  1. #1
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    I also posted this under News and Political Alerts but I thought I'd post it here too if it's ok since our own bill got shot down. It may be best to reply there so all can see it.

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...p;pageId=58323

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Good post.

    The references to VA Tech are appropriate.



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    Regular Member thnycav's Avatar
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    No they are not the same, this was in Israel and the man in question was 40 and a member of the reserves of the IDF. They are allowed to be armed at all times and they are also highly trained.I have spent some time in Israel.

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    Regular Member vt357's Avatar
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    thnycav wrote:
    No they are not the same, this was in Israel and the man in question was 40 and a member of the reserves of the IDF. They are allowed to be armed at all times and they are also highly trained.I have spent some time in Israel.
    It is the same. Not all college students are right out of highschool. Andrew Dysart, a spokesman for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, is about 25 and is a former Marine. I would consider him to be highly trained, yet he cannot carry at his school under threat of expulsion.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    No they are not the same.
    This was in Israel, the man was 40 and a member of the IDF.
    They are armed and highly trained.
    It is the same. Not all college students are right out of highschool.
    vt357: nailed it.

    In most if not allcases you have to be 21 yrs old to have a CCW/CHP, so no they aren't kids/children.

    Many of our service people that have seen/been in combat and served proudly are now college students/employee's.


    EDIT:

    typo


    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    thnycav wrote:
    No they are not the same, this was in Israel and the man in question was 40 and a member of the reserves of the IDF. They are allowed to be armed at all times and they are also highly trained.I have spent some time in Israel.
    That dog don't hunt.

    In MO the right to carry on campus is also denied. Here the age to obtain a CCW is the oldest in the country being 23. That means that the vast majority of the resident undergraduate student body would be too young to carry. Those who will be of age in MO are going to mostly be either non-traditional/returning adult students or students who are taking less than a full class load because of other obligations, such as a family and/or full time employment. Both of those groups have been shown in research of various aspects of campus life to be more responsible than the average traditional college student. If the argument to not allow carry on campus was in any way, shape or form actually related to the age to CCW, then MO would have been the first to allow carry on all campuses but only with a valid MO CCW. If it were a training question, then required traning guidelines would have been drawn up and offered.

    There are few places one can find more sheep, cowards and hypocrites than among an American university faculty or administration, one of those few places being the United States Congress.

    Minimum age to obtain concealed carry permit by state from http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/CCWFAQApp.pdf
    (Anyone who has any interest in concealed carry needs to have http://www.handgunlaw.us bookmarked. It is an excellent reference.)


    USA
    AL 18
    AK 21
    AZ 21
    AR 21
    CA 18
    CO 21
    CT 21
    DE 18
    DC 21
    FL 21
    GA 21
    HI 21
    ID 21
    IL N/A
    IN 18
    IA 18
    KS 21
    KY 21
    LA 21
    ME 18
    MD 18
    MA 21
    MI 21
    MN 21
    MS 21
    MO 23
    MT 18
    NE 21
    NV 21
    NH 18
    NJ 21
    NM 21
    NY 21
    NYC 21
    NC 21
    ND 18
    OH 21
    OK 21
    OR 21
    PA 21
    RI 21
    SC 21
    SD 18
    TN 21
    TX 21
    UT 21
    VT 18
    VA 21
    WA 21
    WV 21
    WI N/A
    WY 18
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  7. #7
    Regular Member thnycav's Avatar
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    No the problem with the Universities as well as the lawmakers is they think if they can pass a law or make a regulation prohibiting something that the problem will go away. They treat the symptom not the problem.

    I was just pointing out that in Israel most are armed and are members of the IDF. It is the training that is needed not just target training but urban warfare and situation training. I do have confidence that a vet would have such training and ability . Just having a permit for a concealed weapon does not give you the skills you need. If I was going to defend a school or building from such a treat with the training level of the students and facility I would consider more than just handguns. There is many non lethal devices on the market that will render the BG nonoperational without the need for that much skill. There are stun grenades and they are also working with sound that will case them to drop in their tracks and be easily subdued. Not as glamorous as a firefight but will do the job.



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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    thnycav wrote:
    No the problem with the Universities as well as the lawmakers is they think if they can pass a law or make a regulation prohibiting something that the problem will go away. They treat the symptom not the problem.

    I was just pointing out that in Israel most are armed and are members of the IDF. It is the training that is needed not just target training but urban warfare and situation training. I do have confidence that a vet would have such training and ability . Just having a permit for a concealed weapon does not give you the skills you need. If I was going to defend a school or building from such a threat with the training level of the students and facility I would consider more than just handguns. There is many non lethal devices on the market that will render the BG nonoperational without the need for that much skill. There are stun grenades and they are also working with sound that will case them to drop in their tracks and be easily subdued. Not as glamorous as a firefight but will do the job.

    QFT.
    I'm confused.
    Are you suggesting that those with no formal firearms training (CQB or combat experience) give up carrying firearms and choose a LLD?
    LLD or NLD as you called themdo have a place and can be useful but they don't always perform up to the neededstandard.

    While some may lack the experience that doesn't mean they will not be up for the task.
    Thereis alwaysthe first time for everyone even our CQB guru's.

    I would boldly state that not everyone that won a GUN fight had been in one prior.
    Also not all firearms trainers have CQB/combat experience other than training.
    (I will not post names)
    While I'll never condemn someone for seeking out training.
    I would never suggest those that don't disarm.

    People shouldknowtheir limitations.

    Please don't awesome I'm attacking you, because that is not my intent.

    Edit:
    Typo's
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    thnycav wrote:
    No the problem with the Universities as well as the lawmakers is they think if they can pass a law or make a regulation prohibiting something that the problem will go away. They treat the symptom not the problem.

    I was just pointing out that in Israel most are armed and are members of the IDF. It is the training that is needed not just target training but urban warfare and situation training. I do have confidence that a vet would have such training and ability . Just having a permit for a concealed weapon does not give you the skills you need. If I was going to defend a school or building from such a treat with the training level of the students and facility I would consider more than just handguns. There is many non lethal devices on the market that will render the BG nonoperational without the need for that much skill. There are stun grenades and they are also working with sound that will case them to drop in their tracks and be easily subdued. Not as glamorous as a firefight but will do the job.
    I understand your point, but I think it is fallacious. If the schools were being attacked by trained commandos/terrorists as does happen in Israel, I would agree with you to a much greater extent.

    In the US, most of the situations to date are an armed nutcase against corralled, unarmed victims. These guys consistently shoot other people until faced with imminent resistence and then commit suicide. This isn't a case of true urban warfare.

    -There will be usually 1, sometimes 2 shooters and the goal of the armed student is to either end the threat if possible, if not buy time to get out.

    -What we have seen lately is that these murderers tend to be systematic. They are more executioners than anything. They go room to room, person to person.

    -They are not typically highly skilled shooters, but rather minimally trained shooters with limited range time who, when highly effective, are using more execution type shooting against cowering or lined up humans.

    This isn't about "defend[ing] a school or building from such a treat [sic]". This is about trying to save your own sorry a$$ and buy some time for some of your classmates to escape too, thereby saving lives. I think you have hit upon the misconception though that the faculty, administrators and politicians have and probably some (too many?) on the pro-carry side have too. This is not about getting into a shoot out, being Wyatt Earp and taking out the bad guy. If you have the angle to take the shot and can take out the BG great! If not, get him/her to put their head down long enough to get out of Dodge. I think that 2-3 students in a large class putting rounds anywhere close to the BG is going to distract the BG from systematically executing classmates. No special urban combat ops training required to shoot at a murderous ********* standing in front of your classroom and executing your professor. I will 100% guarantee that everyone in that class is more vulnerable and has higher odds of being wounded or killed if there are 0 students carrying than if there is at least 1 student carrying in class.

    -Edited for spelling error.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Israel has an exemption to compulsory military service for those in full-time religious studies. The hero in this story was a student at a seminary. Unless somebody has additional information, I don't think we can assume this person had any military training. Could be just an "average Joe' saving lives with a gun.

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    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    I think I am going to sometimes start referring to GUN FREE ZONES as GUN FREE SUPER SAFETY AND HAPPINESS ZONES!!!

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    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    t3rmin wrote:
    Israel has an exemption to compulsory military service for those in full-time religious studies. The hero in this story was a student at a seminary. Unless somebody has additional information, I don't think we can assume this person had any military training. Could be just an "average Joe' saving lives with a gun.
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3499735.ece

    According to that story he is a reservist.

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    Skeptic wrote:
    According to that story he is a reservist.
    Good find. Thanks.

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    Now see even we can't get the facts straight...

    Didn't the article by Alan G. state that the student put two rounds into the terrorist head and then a member of the Reserves also shot him?

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Lthrnck wrote:
    Now see even we can't get the facts straight...

    Didn't the article by Alan G. state that the student put two rounds into the terrorist head and then a member of the Reserves also shot him?
    That'd be some incredible shooting IMO. Would you actually be able to get TWO rounds into the head of a standing person? First shot probably pretty easy, second one though?

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    Lthrnck wrote:
    Now see even we can't get the facts straight...

    Didn't the article by Alan G. state that the student put two rounds into the terrorist head and then a member of the Reserves also shot him?
    That'd be some incredible shooting IMO. Would you actually be able to get TWO rounds into the head of a standing person? First shot probably pretty easy, second one though?
    Jerry Miculek put 8 rounds into a single target with a revolver in 1.0 seconds. I imagine he could get two in there before the head moved very far...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9cc...eature=related

    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Sounds like he was laying down taking careful aim. Nice shooting, nonetheless.

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    deepdiver wrote:
    Minimum age to obtain concealed carry permit by state from http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/CCWFAQApp.pdf

    ...

    NH 18
    This is incorrect. NH has no minimum age.


  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    KBCraig wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    Minimum age to obtain concealed carry permit by state from http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/CCWFAQApp.pdf

    ...

    NH 18
    This is incorrect. NH has no minimum age.
    The federal government essentially does though as I understand it, therefore the minimum age to CC regardless of state law would be 18.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    After checking the news feeds from isreal, I saw that according to govt sources the shooter was first shot by the IDF reservist who responded from home to the sounds of gunfire and shot the gunman putting him down but not killing him. Another armed student also responded to the gunshots and found the shooter still alive and finished the job. The students statement and the govt's differ on who shot the gunman first. Who knows. At least the gunman got justice served. I couldn't get all the links, it took a pretty length of time to track down the news feeds out of isreal.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    rchjr wrote:
    After checking the news feeds from isreal, I saw that according to govt sources the shooter was first shot by the IDF reservist who responded from home to the sounds of gunfire and shot the gunman putting him down but not killing him. Another armed student also responded to the gunshots and found the shooter still alive and finished the job. The students statement and the govt's differ on who shot the gunman first. Who knows. At least the gunman got justice served. I couldn't get all the links, it took a pretty length of time to track down the news feeds out of isreal.
    Almost sounds like the Appalachian School of Law shooting. Many different testimonies of what actually happened. Hard to say what the truth is, sitting in this chair.

    But the bottom line is there were armed men already "at" the scene. Trained or untrained this scenario is better than having to wait for someone armed to show up! Even if one or two innocents were shot by the wildly shooting untrained defender. The only other thing besides self-control that training may provide that is of significance is found in the example of the church shooting in Colorado where one trained civilian woman took out the shooter even though there were TWO other untrained male guards who had drawn on the shooter but were unwilling to shoot him. This shows a clear deficit of moral clarity of when it is right to shoot, something training (or self-thought/examination) would provide.

    There are some other things that training could provide, such as tactics, but I think these are minor compared to controlled shooting and willingness to shoot.

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    deepdiver wrote:
    The federal government essentially does though as I understand it, therefore the minimum age to CC regardless of state law would be 18.
    Can you cite that law? I'd like to read it.



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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    KBCraig wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    The federal government essentially does though as I understand it, therefore the minimum age to CC regardless of state law would be 18.
    Can you cite that law? I'd like to read it.
    DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
    BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
    YOUTH HANDGUN SAFETY ACT NOTICE
    ATF 1 5300.2 (7-2004)
    (1) The misuse of handguns is a leading contributor to juvenile violence and fatalities.
    (2) Safely storing and securing firearms away from children will help prevent the unlawful possession of handguns by juveniles, stop accidents, and save lives.

    (3) Federal law prohibits, except in certain limited circumstances, anyone under 18 years of age from knowingly possessing a handgun, or any person from selling, delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person under 18.

    (4) A knowing violation of the prohibition against selling, delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person under the age of 18 is, under certain circumstances, punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

    FEDERAL LAW The Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, provides in pertinent part as follows:
    18 U.S.C. 922(x)

    (x)
    (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile-
    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess-

    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
    (3) This subsection does not apply to-
    (A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile-

    (i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
    (ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except-
    (I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or
    (II) with respect to ranching or arming activities as described in clause

    (i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;
    (iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and
    (iv) in accordance with State and local law;
    (B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;
    (C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or
    (D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which he juvenile is an invited guest.
    (4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.
    (5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.
    (6)

    (A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the court shall require the presence of a juvenile defendant's parent or legal guardian at all proceedings.
    (B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph (A).
    (C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal guardian of a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of a violation of this subsection for good cause shown.
    18 U.S.C. 924(a)(6) (6)(A)
    (i) A juvenile who violates section 922(x) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, except that a juvenile described in clause
    (ii) shall be sentenced to probation on appropriate conditions and shall not be incarcerated unless the juvenile fails to comply with a condition of probation.
    (ii) A juvenile is described in this clause .if --

    (I) the offense of which the juvenile is charged is possession of a handgun or ammunition in violation of section 922(x)(2); and
    (II) the juvenile has not been convicted in any court of an offense (including an offense under section 922(x) or a similar State law, but not including any other offense consisting of conduct that if engaged in by an adult would not constitute an offense) or adjudicated as a juvenile delinquent for conduct that if engaged in by an adult would constitute an offense.
    (B) A person other than a juvenile who knowingly violates section 922(x)-

    (i) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than I year, or both; and
    (ii) if the person sold, delivered, or otherwise transferred a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile knowing or having reasonable cause to know that the juvenile intended to carry or otherwise possess or discharge or otherwise use the handgun or ammunition in the commission of a crime of violence, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.
    If you have any questions, contact:
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
    650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
    Washington, DC 20226
    Phone: (202)927-7770 OR
    Visit our web site at www.atf.treas.gov

    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    thnycav wrote:
    No they are not the same, this was in Israel and the man in question was 40 and a member of the reserves of the IDF. They are allowed to be armed at all times and they are also highly trained.I have spent some time in Israel.
    For those of you who have never lived or worked in Israel, there is universal military service and every able bodied man up to the age of45 (used to be 52)is a member of the Reserves and does a month's service each year.

    There are also CHPs, only a bit more restrictive (see http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/israel-firearms.htmfor a good summary in English).

    And unlike here,every business checks you for weapons when you enter.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    bluedog20175 wrote:
    thnycav wrote:
    No they are not the same, this was in Israel and the man in question was 40 and a member of the reserves of the IDF. They are allowed to be armed at all times and they are also highly trained.I have spent some time in Israel.
    For those of you who have never lived or worked in Israel, there is universal military service and every able bodied man up to the age of45 (used to be 52)is a member of the Reserves and does a month's service each year.

    There are also CHPs, only a bit more restrictive (see http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/israel-firearms.htmfor a good summary in English).

    And unlike here,every business checks you for weapons when you enter.
    Interesting. How do they do that? I can't imagine that they frisk every customer, although given their precarious geographic location, it would be understandable.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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