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Press 'ignore' terrorist stopped by armed student

Neplusultra

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Sep 7, 2007
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Christiansburg, Virginia, USA
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rchjr wrote:
After checking the news feeds from isreal, I saw that according to govt sources the shooter was first shot by the IDF reservist who responded from home to the sounds of gunfire and shot the gunman putting him down but not killing him. Another armed student also responded to the gunshots and found the shooter still alive and finished the job. The students statement and the govt's differ on who shot the gunman first. Who knows. At least the gunman got justice served. I couldn't get all the links, it took a pretty length of time to track down the news feeds out of isreal.
Almost sounds like the Appalachian School of Law shooting. Many different testimonies of what actually happened. Hard to say what the truth is, sitting in this chair.

But the bottom line is there were armed men already "at" the scene. Trained or untrained this scenario is better than having to wait for someone armed to show up! Even if one or two innocents were shot by the wildly shooting untrained defender. The only other thing besides self-control that training may provide that is of significance is found in the example of the church shooting in Colorado where one trained civilian woman took out the shooter even though there were TWO other untrained male guards who had drawn on the shooter but were unwilling to shoot him. This shows a clear deficit of moral clarity of when it is right to shoot, something training (or self-thought/examination) would provide.

There are some other things that training could provide, such as tactics, but I think these are minor compared to controlled shooting and willingness to shoot.
 

KBCraig

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Granite State of Mind
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deepdiver wrote:
The federal government essentially does though as I understand it, therefore the minimum age to CC regardless of state law would be 18.
Can you cite that law? I'd like to read it.
 

deepdiver

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KBCraig wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
The federal government essentially does though as I understand it, therefore the minimum age to CC regardless of state law would be 18.
Can you cite that law? I'd like to read it.
DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
YOUTH HANDGUN SAFETY ACT NOTICE
ATF 1 5300.2 (7-2004)
(1) The misuse of handguns is a leading contributor to juvenile violence and fatalities.
(2) Safely storing and securing firearms away from children will help prevent the unlawful possession of handguns by juveniles, stop accidents, and save lives.

(3) Federal law prohibits, except in certain limited circumstances, anyone under 18 years of age from knowingly possessing a handgun, or any person from selling, delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person under 18.

(4) A knowing violation of the prohibition against selling, delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person under the age of 18 is, under certain circumstances, punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

FEDERAL LAW The Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, provides in pertinent part as follows:
18 U.S.C. 922(x)

(x)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile-
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess-

(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(3) This subsection does not apply to-
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile-

(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except-
(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or arming activities as described in clause

(i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;
(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State and local law;
(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;
(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or
(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which he juvenile is an invited guest.
(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.
(6)

(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the court shall require the presence of a juvenile defendant's parent or legal guardian at all proceedings.
(B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph (A).
(C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal guardian of a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of a violation of this subsection for good cause shown.
18 U.S.C. 924(a)(6) (6)(A)
(i) A juvenile who violates section 922(x) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, except that a juvenile described in clause
(ii) shall be sentenced to probation on appropriate conditions and shall not be incarcerated unless the juvenile fails to comply with a condition of probation.
(ii) A juvenile is described in this clause .if --

(I) the offense of which the juvenile is charged is possession of a handgun or ammunition in violation of section 922(x)(2); and
(II) the juvenile has not been convicted in any court of an offense (including an offense under section 922(x) or a similar State law, but not including any other offense consisting of conduct that if engaged in by an adult would not constitute an offense) or adjudicated as a juvenile delinquent for conduct that if engaged in by an adult would constitute an offense.
(B) A person other than a juvenile who knowingly violates section 922(x)-

(i) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than I year, or both; and
(ii) if the person sold, delivered, or otherwise transferred a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile knowing or having reasonable cause to know that the juvenile intended to carry or otherwise possess or discharge or otherwise use the handgun or ammunition in the commission of a crime of violence, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.
If you have any questions, contact:
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20226
Phone: (202)927-7770 OR
Visit our web site at www.atf.treas.gov
 

bluedog20175

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, Virginia, USA
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thnycav wrote:
No they are not the same, this was in Israel and the man in question was 40 and a member of the reserves of the IDF. They are allowed to be armed at all times and they are also highly trained.I have spent some time in Israel.

For those of you who have never lived or worked in Israel, there is universal military service and every able bodied man up to the age of45 (used to be 52)is a member of the Reserves and does a month's service each year.

There are also CHPs, only a bit more restrictive (see http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/israel-firearms.htmfor a good summary in English).

And unlike here,every business checks you for weapons when you enter.
 

deepdiver

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Apr 2, 2007
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Southeast, Missouri, USA
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bluedog20175 wrote:
thnycav wrote:
No they are not the same, this was in Israel and the man in question was 40 and a member of the reserves of the IDF. They are allowed to be armed at all times and they are also highly trained.I have spent some time in Israel.

For those of you who have never lived or worked in Israel, there is universal military service and every able bodied man up to the age of45 (used to be 52)is a member of the Reserves and does a month's service each year.

There are also CHPs, only a bit more restrictive (see http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/israel-firearms.htmfor a good summary in English).

And unlike here,every business checks you for weapons when you enter.
Interesting. How do they do that? I can't imagine that they frisk every customer, although given their precarious geographic location, it would be understandable.
 

Opie

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Jun 12, 2006
Messages
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Bristol, Virginia, USA
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thnycav wrote:
No they are not the same, this was in Israel and the man in question was 40 and a member of the reserves of the IDF. They are allowed to be armed at all times and they are also highly trained.I have spent some time in Israel.
It sounds like you are buying into the idea that only former law enforcement/military have the skills necessary to return fire? And that unless a student has that training,he/sheisbetter off taking one in the back while hiding under a desk or jumping out a window?
 
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