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Thread: OC on a motorcyle

  1. #1
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    So am I legal to OC on a motorcycle and just drive down the road...here in utah.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    It is legal. Since you do not yet have your permit, make sure it is clearly visible, and unloaded. Standard stuff there. Any word on the Maine permit yet?
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Well I am assuming that the Maine Permit is just being processed. They said they send it back if it is no good real quick. It has been about a month now. I should call out there and see if I can find out the status on it.

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    I thought OC in a vehicle without a permit wasn't allowed here...Maybe I'm just uninformed...

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    I thought OC in a vehicle without a permit wasn't allowed here...Maybe I'm just uninformed...

    You are 100% right.

    This from the BCI web site




    http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFLCarry.html







    [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][color=#003399][size=2][color=#5e6082][size=4]CARRYING

    Format page for printing
    IN PERSON
    It is unlawful for a person with a firearm permit to carry a concealed firearm in the following locations:

    • Any secure area in which firearms are prohibited and notice of the prohibition is posted
    • A secure area of an airport
    • Any courthouse, churches if posted, mental health facility or correctional facility that may provide by rule that no firearm may be transported, sold, given, or possessed upon the facility. At least one notice shall be prominently displayed at each entrance to a secure area in which a dangerous weapon, firearm, or explosive is restricted
    A concealed weapon permit is not a defense to prosecution for any person who carries a weapon while under the influence of alcohol or a controlled substance.
    It is lawful to carry a firearm "capable of being concealed" in one’s home or place of business without a permit.
    It is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on any public street without a permit.
    It is unlawful to carry a firearm while under the influence of alcohol or a controlled substance with or without a permit.
    CARRYING IN VEHICLES
    Only a peace officer in the performance of his duty or a person with a valid permit to carry may carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle.
    It is unlawful for a person without a concealed firearms permit to carry a concealed firearm into a bus terminal.
    It is lawful for a person with a concealed firearm permit to board a bus or a train or enter a terminal with a concealed firearm upon their person or effects. This also applies to law enforcement officers or commercial security personnel with firearms used in their employment.
    It is lawful to carry a firearm in a vehicle without a permit if: the firearm is unloaded; securely encased (not including a glove box or console box) and is not readily accessible for immediate use.
    Return to Concealed Firearm Permit Laws--

    Return to Concealed Firearm Permit Home Page

    "A Right UnExercised IS a Right Lost"




    TJ

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    I thought OC in a vehicle without a permit wasn't allowed here...Maybe I'm just uninformed...
    But is a motorcycle a VEHICLE ???

    According to this http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-394358/motorcycleit is.


    motorcycle (vehicle)
    Encyclopædia Britannica : Related Articles

    A selection of articles discussing this topic.

    Main article: motorcycle
    any two-wheeled or, less commonly, three-wheeled motor vehicle, usually propelled by an internal-combustion engine.

    So according to the Law or "lack" of it , you then should be able to be on a bicycle and OC without a "Permit", but NOT on a motorcycle cuz it's a VEHICLE



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    BTW...,it looks like I'm gonna take a class to get my Motorcycle License 04/05/08:celebrate

    TJ

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    It is legal. Since you do not yet have your permit, make sure it is clearly visible, and unloaded. Standard stuff there. Any word on the Maine permit yet?
    It's NOT legal based on what BCI stated. Read what I copied from their website.

    TJ

  9. #9
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    As long as the firearm is UNLOADED in UNCONCEALED, it is lawful.

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.


    76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2) and (3):
    (a) a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, which is not a firearm on his person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in a place other than his residence, property, or business under his control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor; and
    (b) a person without a valid concealed firearm permit who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a firearm and that contains no ammunition is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, but if the firearm contains ammunition the person is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.


    76-10-505.
    Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle;
    (b) on any public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

    The BCI can write whatever they want, but if there is no law that prohibits something, then it is legal. It looks like the BCI left the word concealed out of that last sentence.


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I've been reading the law for a couple days now, and seem to agree that it's legal to OC on a Motorcycle...I tend to think that the same phrasology that makes "Unloaded" OC on a street legal also makes it legal in a vehicle...(or rather the lack of phrasology)
    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm: (a) in or on a vehicle; (b) on any public street; or (c) in a posted prohibited area. (2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.
    So by default, unloaded OC without a permit is not prohibited in a vehicle, on a street, or in a posted prohibited area.



    The phrase that BCI uses
    It is lawful to carry a firearm in a vehicle without a permit if: the firearm is unloaded; securely encased (not including a glove box or console box) and is not readily accessible for immediate use.
    comes from the definition of securely encased...and is never specifically applied to any group of people...
    (18) "Securely encased" means not readily accessible for immediate use, such as held in a gun rack, or in a closed case or container, whether or not locked, or in a trunk or other storage area of a motor vehicle, not including a glove box or console box.
    I can't find anything requiring an unloaded firearm to be "securely encased" while in a vehicle.


    There is one line that makes me think you would be prosecuted if you carry in a car...but not on a Motorcycle!
    76-10-501. Definitions.

    (2) (a) "Concealed dangerous weapon" means a dangerous weapon that is covered, hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence and is readily accessible for immediate use.
    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_0C030.htm

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    BTW...,it looks like I'm gonna take a class to get my Motorcycle License 04/05/08:celebrate

    TJ
    I took a class last fall, best $180 -ish dollars I've ever spent.

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    BTW...,it looks like I'm gonna take a class to get my Motorcycle License 04/05/08:celebrate

    TJ
    I took a class last fall, best $180 -ish dollars I've ever spent.
    It's $150 for the class and $27 for the license

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    SGT Jensen wrote:
    It is legal. Since you do not yet have your permit, make sure it is clearly visible, and unloaded. Standard stuff there. Any word on the Maine permit yet?
    It's NOT legal based on what BCI stated. Read what I copied from their website.

    TJ
    I sent the following question to the BCI on their online contact form...

    On http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFLCarry.html you infer that the only lawful way to carry a firearm in a vehicle without a permit is if: "the firearm is unloaded; securely encased (not including a glove box or console box) and is not readily accessible for immediate use." I cannot find any code that restricts me from carrying an unloaded unconcealed firearm on my hip in a vehicle without a permit...Can you please direct me to the code you used to come the that conclusion?
    I'll let you know what they say.

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    jaredbelch wrote: [quote]UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    SGT Jensen wrote:
    It is legal. Since you do not yet have your permit, make sure it is clearly visible, and unloaded. Standard stuff there. Any word on the Maine permit yet?
    It's NOT legal based on what BCI stated. Read what I copied from their website.

    TJ
    I sent the following question to the BCI on their online contact form...

    [quote]On jaredbelch

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    Does anyone else have ideas on how we could verify this?

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    BTW...,it looks like I'm gonna take a class to get my Motorcycle License 04/05/08:celebrate

    TJ
    I took a class last fall, best $180 -ish dollars I've ever spent.
    It's $150 for the class and $27 for the license

    Didn't get back enough on the taxes. So I won't be able to take the MC class

    TJ


  17. #17
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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    BTW...,it looks like I'm gonna take a class to get my Motorcycle License 04/05/08:celebrate

    TJ
    I took a class last fall, best $180 -ish dollars I've ever spent.
    It's $150 for the class and $27 for the license

    Didn't get back enough on the taxes. So I won't be able to take the MC class

    TJ
    Taking my MC classes this week.:celebrate

    Wednesday Night 6Pm - 9PM

    SaturdayDay7Am - 5Pm

    Sunday Day 7Am - 5Pm



    I can have my MC license by next week:celebrate

    Trying to get a desent MC around $1000

    Any ideas anyone

    Want to OC with MCing

    TJ

  18. #18
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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    BTW...,it looks like I'm gonna take a class to get my Motorcycle License 04/05/08:celebrate

    TJ
    I took a class last fall, best $180 -ish dollars I've ever spent.
    It's $150 for the class and $27 for the license

    Didn't get back enough on the taxes. So I won't be able to take the MC class

    TJ
    Taking my MC classes this week.:celebrate

    Wednesday Night 6Pm - 9PM

    SaturdayDay7Am - 5Pm

    Sunday Day 7Am - 5Pm



    I can have my MC license by next week:celebrate

    Trying to get a desent MC around $1000

    Any ideas anyone

    Want to OC with MCing

    TJ
    I'll go on an OC motorcycle ride any time you want! I do it quite regularly now.

  19. #19
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    """On http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFLCarry.html you infer that the only lawful way to carry a firearm in a vehicle without a permit is if: "the firearm is unloaded; securely encased (not including a glove box or console box) and is not readily accessible for immediate use." I cannot find any code that restricts me from carrying an unloaded unconcealed firearm on my hip in a vehicle without a permit..."""

    BUMP - im interested in the answer. Cant have both laws, right? i mean, is BCI's word = to a law?

  20. #20
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Open carry on a motorcycle is legal. If you do not have a permit, the firearm must be visible, and unloaded. Remember, the BCI are not lawmakers.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Sweet. Ty.

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    In a vehicle, to me, is different than on a motorcycle. Not too many bikes out there that one can climb in. Again, keep it visible and your are likely gtg. I can hear the prosecutor now trying to define when you have changed from being legal OC next to the bike to illegal in the bike. If you are straddling the bike, but not touching the seat or handlebars are you on the bike? Such ridiculous dilineation would likely tip the case in your favor.

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    wait.. I thought OCing in a car was legal as long as it was "unloaded" (Utah unloaded) and you aren't driving in a school zone?

    Without a permit does it have to be locked up, separate from ammunition, and not easily accessible?

    I am confused now...

  24. #24
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    Bflamante wrote:
    In a vehicle, to me, is different than on a motorcycle.
    The law says in or on.

    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle;
    (b) on any public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.


    Cykaos wrote:
    wait.. I thought OCing in a car was legal as long as it was "unloaded" (Utah unloaded) and you aren't driving in a school zone?

    Without a permit does it have to be locked up, separate from ammunition, and not easily accessible?

    I am confused now...
    Open carry in or on any vehicle is legal provided the firearm is unloaded and clearly visible. The securely encased thing is if you want to conceal it. Of course, none of this applies if you have a concealed firearm permit.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Also keep in mind that you are exempt from STATE gun free school zone laws while in a vehicle, but the Federal one doesn't have the same exception.

    Utah Code:









    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.

    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control,
    other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.

    Amended by Chapter 203, 2003 General Session

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