Question about...

KnightSG7 · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

Hey all!, I was told by a Chesterfield officer that ther was "no such thing" as CC on your own property.

Almost all of my neighbors are anti's and I was worried about them freaking out, soI asked him while he was outside of my house if there was a way around that.

"Just throw your shirt over it", is what he said, "There is no law saying you cannot CC on your own property"

Could anybody verify this?

vt357 · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.

KnightSG7 · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

I searched but did not find anything. Thank you!!!

vt357 · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

This hasn't been posted in a while but is very good for reference.

Virginia Gun Rights

You're from Midlothian, are you coming to the Richmond OC dinner tonight?

KnightSG7 · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

I am unfortunatly unable to make it due to the vehicle being in the shop, but with work and everything anyway, it doesnt look like i am going to be able to do anything until April.

Mr. Y · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

Place of abode and the curtilage is NOT your whole property.

roscoe13 · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

Mr. Y wrote:

Place of abode and the curtilage is NOT your whole property.

It is for the overwhelming majority of people...

From the Random House College Dictionary:

curtilage n. Law. the area of land occupied by a dwelling and its yard and outbuildings.

Only a small percentage of people have enough land that their entire property wouldn't qualify...

skidmark · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

Mr. Y wrote:

Place of abode and the curtilage is NOT your whole property.

Curtilage being the space around the house where ordinary, everyday activities take place, it may be difficult to say that all of the land comprising the typical urban/suburban homestead is not the curtilage. For example, if the kids play out back all the way out to the fence line, then its curtilage. If you have a fence to keep the little ones close to the house but have a garden out beyond that, at least to the far end of the garden is curtilage. If you have barns and outbuildings that are not used solely for storage of pre-antiques, then the area where they are is curtilage. If you keep large animals (horses, cows, goats) in pens beyond the barn, then out to the end of the pens is curtilage.[size=+2]

[align=left]The term curtilage according to the Virginia Courts is defined in the following cases: [/align]Robinson v. Commonwealth, Va. App. En Banc Rehearing (2006) / Robinson v. Commonwealth, Va. App. (2005)

[align=left]"Because homeowners possess a reasonable expectation of privacy in the curtilage surrounding their homes, Oliver v. United States, 466 U.S. 170, 180 (1984), "the curtilage . . . warrants the Fourth Amendment protections that attach to the home." Id.; see also Jefferson v. Commonwealth, 27 Va. App. 1, 15, 497 S.E.2d 474, 481 (1998) ("Consistent with the common law understanding of the extent of the 'home,' the Supreme Court has held that the Fourth Amendment protections that apply to the house also apply to the 'curtilage' of the house."). Because the Fourth Amendment protects the curtilage to the same extent as the home, a police officer may not enter the curtilage without a warrant, exigent circumstances, or pursuant to an express or implied invitation from the occupant. See Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 589-90 (1980) ("To be arrested in the home involves not only the invasion attendant to all arrests but also an invasion of the sanctity of the home. This is simply too substantial an invasion to allow without a warrant, at least in the absence of exigent circumstances . . . ." (internal quotations omitted)).[/align]
[align=left]Generally, the curtilage of a home is the "area around the home to which the activity of home life extends." Oliver, 466 U.S. at 180; see also Wellford v. Commonwealth, 227 Va. 297, 301, 315 S.E.2d 235, 238 (1984) (defining "curtilage" as the "space necessary and convenient, habitually used for family purposes and the carrying on of domestic employment; the yard, garden or field which is near to and used in connection with the dwelling"). "[W]hether a particular place is within the curtilage of the home is determined on a case-by-case basis." Jefferson, 27 Va. App. at 16, 497 S.E.2d at 481 (citing United States v. Dunn, 480 U.S. 294, 301 n.4 (1987)). In determining whether the area in question constitutes curtilage, "particular reference" to the following four factors is helpful: [/align]
[align=left]
[1] the proximity of the area claimed to be curtilage to the home, [/align]
[align=left][2] whether the area is included within an enclosure surrounding the home, [/align]
[align=left][3] the nature of the uses to which the area is put, and [/align]
[align=left][4] the steps taken by the resident to protect the area from observation by people passing by. [/align]
[align=left]Dunn, 480 U.S. at 301; Jefferson, 27 Va. App. at 16, 497 S.E.2d at 481. "[T]hese factors are useful analytical tools only to the degree that, in any given case, they bear upon the centrally relevant consideration-whether the area in question is so intimately tied to the home itself that it should be placed under the home's 'umbrella' of Fourth Amendment protection." Dunn, 480 U.S. at 301."[/align]See Also: Commonwealth v. Bryant, Va. App. (2005)

[align=left][font=Arial,Helvetica]The term curtilage when living in an apartment complex has been defined by the Virginia Court of Appeals in Jermaine Harris v. Commonwealth , Va. App.(2001):[/font] [/align]
[align=left]
"Under the Fourth Amendment, a search is an invasion into a space or area where a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy in the 'person,' or the person's 'houses,' 'papers,' or 'effects.'" Hughes v. Commonwealth, 31 Va. App. 447, 455, 524 S.E.2d 155, 159 (2000). [/align]
[align=left]To determine whether a citizen "enjoys a reasonable expectation of privacy . . . we consider whether he [or she] has exhibited an expectation of privacy in the object and whether that expectation is one that 'society is prepared to recognize as reasonable.'" Anderson v. Commonwealth, 25 Va. App. 565, 576, 490 S.E.2d 274, 279 (1997) (quoting Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347, 361 (1967) (Harlan, J., concurring)), aff'd, 256 Va. 580, 507 S.E.2d 339 (1998). "[W]here private lands are exposed to observation by members of the public who may legitimately come upon the property, a citizen does not reasonably have an expectation of privacy in areas that the passing public can observe." Shaver, 30 Va. App. at 795, 520 S.E.2d at 396. [/align]
[align=left]Here, appellant had no reasonable expectation of privacy in the front entrance to his apartment, an area "observable by members of the public who might approach [his] residence, pass by, or lawfully be upon [the] property."" [/align]
[align=left]Hope that helps.[/align]

[align=left]stay safe.[/align]

[align=left]skidmark[/align][/size]

SouthernBoy · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

KnightSG7 wrote:

Hey all!, I was told by a Chesterfield officer that ther was "no such thing" as CC on your own property.

Almost all of my neighbors are anti's and I was worried about them freaking out, soI asked him while he was outside of my house if there was a way around that.

"Just throw your shirt over it", is what he said, "There is no law saying you cannot CC on your own property"

Could anybody verify this?

Wait. The officer contradicted himself. First he say there is no such thing as CC on your own property, then he advises to "Just throw your shirt over it" and informs you that there is no law saying you cannot CC on your own property. Clearly, he's talking out of both sides of his mouth. So here goes.

You may OC pretty much anywhere in the state, and most certainly including your own property. And you can CC in pretty much anywhere in the state with a permit, unless it is on your own property (curtilage).

The LEO is mistaken.

DocV · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

To play devil's advocate, maybe it was just a poor choice of wording. Instead of saying "...there is no such thing as CC on your own property" the LEO meant, or should have, said "there is nothing prohibiting CC on your own property, just throw your shirt over it."

His next statment; "There is no law saying you cannot CC on your own property" seems to support that.

V/R

DocV

KnightSG7 · Mar 11, 2008

imported post

Thanks everybody, you have all been alot of help!

sitedzn · Mar 12, 2008

imported post

KnightSG7,

You wouldn't happen to work at the Lowe's at Winterpock would you? Just curious as I ran into a guy working there, late in the evening close to closing, who was killing time looking through his XD flyer. Just wondering if you and he are one and the same.

LEO 229 · Mar 12, 2008

imported post

SouthernBoy wrote:

Wait. The officer contradicted himself. First he say there is no such thing as CC on your own property, then he advises to "Just throw your shirt over it" and informs you that there is no law saying you cannot CC on your own property. Clearly, he's talking out of both sides of his mouth. So here goes.

You may OC pretty much anywhere in the state, and most certainly including your own property. And you can CC in pretty much anywhere in the state with a permit, unless it is on your own property (curtilage).

The LEO is mistaken.

Agreed... The LEO made an error and needs to brush up on the code section. Not something we read all the time and that is a LONG code..

KnightSG7 · Mar 12, 2008

imported post

No I am not, but I am within veryshort walking distance of that Lowes.

VAopencarry · Mar 12, 2008

imported post

I think the officer meant, 'No CC' as in it doesn't matter, it's your property, no permit required. If I was on my own property and carrying, I would not say I was CC'ing on my own property. I would just be carrying. I do not OC or CC in my own abode. I just have a gun on.

KnightSG7 · Mar 12, 2008

imported post

Exactly, thats what I was thinking...

SouthernBoy · Mar 12, 2008

imported post

I should just say that I figured that either the poster made a simple mistake with CC or the officer really did say this - also a mistake. So I was playing a little with the words.

I'm sure we're all well aware that we can carry any way our hearts' desire on our own property/curtilage.

Question about...

KnightSG7

Regular Member

vt357

Regular Member

KnightSG7

Regular Member

vt357

Regular Member

KnightSG7

Regular Member

Mr. Y

Regular Member

roscoe13

Campaign Veteran

skidmark

Campaign Veteran

SouthernBoy

Regular Member

DocV

Regular Member

KnightSG7

Regular Member

sitedzn

Regular Member

LEO 229

Regular Member

KnightSG7

Regular Member

VAopencarry

Regular Member

KnightSG7

Regular Member

SouthernBoy

Regular Member