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Thread: Allowing weapons ruins sanctuary, & Right to self-defense extends to parks

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    Good job Dave!! :celebrate

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    Kudos Mr Dave.

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    Excellent!

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    From the anti piece:
    Crime in national park areas is significantly lower than in surrounding communities, and wildlife poaching, while still a threat, is nowhere near the problem it was before the rules were put in place. In other words, the rules work.
    What kind of ******** argumentation is that?! Of course crime is lower in park areas; nobody lives there, and crime is more closely linked to population density than anything else. That's why Chicago has more crime than the entire state of Montana, in spite of Montana less repressive with regard to firearms.

    And check in on a hikers' forum sometime if you want to read the horror stories about break-ins into cars at the trailheads. You get teams of goons who work their way through every car in the lot, and they've been known to get quite violent with people who interrupt them. And most of those places are too far from inhabited areas for the local sheriff's departments to be able to patrol them. I've read one story from a hiker who, while returning to the trailhead, almost ran into one smash-and-grab team's lookout guy (who wasnt' being too observant, fortunately), and saw that the lookout guy had a revolver. IIRC, that was in Snoqualmie Nat'l Forest (which is not the same as a Nat'l Park, but the point is there), on the north side of I-90.

    And how many poachers use handguns to poach, let alone concealable handguns? Seems to me you can stop poachers one of two ways: either you catch them with the kill (in which case it doesn't matter whether the weapon they used is permitted or not), or you catch them because they're visibly carrying a hunting weapon out of season. If poachers primarily used concealable handguns, how would the rules have been enforced in the first place?

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    Didn't a couple of people get shot to death in a national park around here a couple years ago? Banning firearms anywhere seems to always lead to a victim rich environment.

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    The incident Agent 47 refers to was in the Mt Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest, not a national park.

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    edit: Thanks for the link, kparker.

    Where it happened is unimportant. What is important is that they were not prepared for self defense. In a National Park one can't legally prepare for self defense, at least with arms and arms are needed most by the weak.

    MD

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    Macho,

    Where it happened is unimportant.
    I wouldn't go quite that far. I think if we are advocating for gun rights and self-defense rights, it is important to be accurate so that we aren't accused of lying or of alarmism.

    That being said, your overall point about being legally hindered from self-defense in the National Parks is of course right on.






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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    Good point, kparker. Once an error gets into the popular dialog, on any subject, it seems to remain forever.

    MD

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    kparker wrote:
    I think if we are advocating for gun rights and self-defense rights, it is important to be accurate so that we aren't accused of lying or of alarmism.
    Why do we have to play by different rules that the anti-gun advocates?:X


    Oh that's right, because the media agrees with them and won't point out when they lie or alarmist and because we tend to be honest people. Of course it is easier for us as the facts are on our side. :P
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    kparker wrote:
    The incident Agent 47 refers to was in the Mt Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest, not a national park.
    Are guns allowed in national forests?

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Agent 47 wrote:
    kparker wrote:
    The incident Agent 47 refers to was in the Mt Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest, not a national park.
    Are guns allowed in national forests?
    National Forests ----Si!

    National Parks -------No!
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    amlevin wrote:
    Agent 47 wrote:
    kparker wrote:
    The incident Agent 47 refers to was in the Mt Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest, not a national park.
    Are guns allowed in national forests?

    National Parks -------No!
    Well, not yet anyway. What's notfunny is consider all the meth labs, and marijuana grow operations in national parks. And the average sheep/liberal stumbling across these. I recently read somewhere about a person being killed cause they stumbled on a pot grow operation in AZ? Will have to check on that story......

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    Agent 47 wrote:
    Are guns allowed in national forests?
    As amlevin says, yes they are. National Forests fall under the US Forest Service (which is part of the USDA), whereas National Parks fall under the National Parks Service; different purpose, different agency, different rules. Then there's also National Wildlife Refuges, which fall under the US Fish and Wildlife Service, and Public Lands, managed by the Bureau of Land Management...

    But hey, at least the various federal agencies finally got their act together last year and issued a single access permit valid for all federal recreational lands, so that you don't have to get a National Parks Pass (for National Parks) in one place and a Golden Eagle sticker (for USFS/USFWS lands) in another, etc. etc.

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    Thank you gents, thank you all.

    The Pinnacle Lake trail killings have been on my mind for a year and a half. I wrote about that incident several times in Gun Week and it's the basis for a chapter in my book with Alan Gottlieb: America Fights Back: Armed Self-Defense in a Violent Age (on Amazon.com),

    The crime simply does not and did not make any sense and the details I'm aware of suggest no motive at all. My "educated guess" is that it happened so fast neither would have had time to draw a gun even if they'd been carrying.

    I was fascinated with the reaction within the hiking community..I believe our colleague Mainsail can elucidate on that..

    But the murder itself poses a real challenge.

    Naturally, I still carry a sidearm on the trail.

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    Dave Workman wrote:
    My "educated guess" is that it happened so fast neither would have had time to draw a gun even if they'd been carrying.


    Though perhaps open carrying may have dissuaded the attack all together. In a situation like that concealed carry would have been unlikely to change the outcome whatsoever.

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    Agent 47 wrote:
    Dave Workman wrote:
    My "educated guess" is that it happened so fast neither would have had time to draw a gun even if they'd been carrying.
    Though perhaps open carrying may have dissuaded the attack all together. In a situation like that concealed carry would have been unlikely to change the outcome whatsoever.
    No. Based on what I know about the crime, OC would not have dissuaded this particular attack.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Something like that happened to a group of geocachers who were hiking back in 2004. One of the party was armed, but the gun was in his backpack and thus inaccessible. I’ll quote the first post from the thread here:

    Upon our return to the Jeep we heard a gun shot and some yelling. When arriving back at the Jeep we were confronted by two men on horseback with revolvers. One was a Native American with long black hair, wearing a cowboy hat and chaps. The other man called him “Ronnie”. The other was a white older man with a brown beard, also wearing a cowboy hat and chaps; he never left his horse. We found out later that they had removed the coil cable from the Jeep engine to prevent us from leaving. The white man had the coil cable in his saddle bag. They both had been heavily drinking and were carrying Milwaukee’s Best beer and were very angry. They yelled, do you want to spend the night in jail so I called 911 (case 780). I told the 911 operator that we needed immediate assistance that we had been accused of trespassing and the land owners were drinking, had hand guns and were very upset. The 911 operator talked to the Native American first and the white man next. The Native American told me to hang it up; I left it on so the 911 operator could continue to hear the conversation and the urgency in our report. They regularly used obscenities and continued yelling, accusing us of trespassing. The Native American said things like: We’re gonna scalp you. We’re gonna teach you a lesson. We’re gonna tie you up and drag you behind our horses. Where’s my rope? We’re gonna kick your a**. I don’t like you. You’re a threat to me. The Native American said he was gonna use “Indian Justice” to teach us a lesson. The Native American said he was a “Tribal Officer” and he asked for our ID. The Native American told us to put our ID on the hood of the Jeep. When we hesitated he became agitated and pulled his weapon. At one point the weapon was pointed directly at me. We were continually called names and yelled at, and searched. The Native American told us to raise our hands and he searched The Good Stuff(male) and me. They did not search The Good Stuff (female). The Native American again yelled at each of us and called us names and made additional threats while standing with his weapon inches from our face. He told us he didn’t like us and felt we were a threat to him. He repeatedly said he wanted to beat us, while the white man asked the Native American to let us go a couple of times. The Native American was mad at us for being white, for being from South Hill/Puyallup. The Native American made references to us white people taking his land. The white man never made threats. The Native American asked if we had any weapons. The Good Stuff(male) told them that he had a loaded pistol in his backpack and that he had a permit to carry it. The Native American searched the backpack he put on leather gloves he reached into our bag and pulled out The Good Stuff(male)’s 45 caliber hand gun and told us to start walking into the woods. The white man said “No Ronnie, let em go!” The Native American pulled out the gun and removed the clip. He asked if one was in the chamber, The Good Stuff(male) said no. The Native American held up the gun to fire it, pointed it into the woods and said if there is one in the chamber I’m gonna kick your a**. He fired the weapon and it did not discharge. He gave the weapon back to The Good Stuff(male) and unloaded the clip and threw the bullets at his feet and told him to pick them up. The Good Stuff(female) began to pick up the bullets and our other belongings that had been strewn along the ground.



    Eventually the White man gave us the coil cord and told us to put it back on the engine. The Native American wanted to search the vehicle. He yelled at The Good Stuff(female) and told her to get out of the way she was loading up the Jeep. She didn’t move and said we are leaving now. He told her to back up two feet. She did not and he pushed her out of the way and began to search the back seat. After a brief search he backed away we quickly entered the vehicle and left. The 911 operator was still on the line and she said she heard the whole conversation. She told us to meet a WSP at the Elbe Post office. We waited there for a short time but were uncomfortable with the distance to the property so we headed to Graham. We waited for almost an hour at the Evergreen Presbyterian Church for a Pierce County Sheriff but none responded, we were told they were very busy so we went home. The Good Stuff filed a report with the Pierce County Sheriff later that night at his home.


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