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Thread: RCW 9.41.050

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    RCW 9.41.050
    (1)
    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.

    Hello all!

    So, who are these "any other persons" and what law is being refered to.

    BTW: I went down to the County-City building in Tacoma this morning (very nice bunch of ladies!) to do my app for a CPL. The fingerprinting person told me that they get about 35 new CPL apps everyday..I was blown away! I was thinking 3 or 4.

    Thanks!
    Sharpender
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

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    medlogic wrote:
    they get about 35 new CPL apps everyday..I was blown away! I was thinking 3 or 4.
    Last stat I saw was that Washington has about 5% CPL holders, which is third or fourth in the nation. I was quite surprised by this.

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    medlogic wrote:
    RCW 9.41.050
    (1)
    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.

    Hello all!

    So, who are these "any other persons" and what law is being refered to.

    BTW: I went down to the County-City building in Tacoma this morning (very nice bunch of ladies!) to do my app for a CPL. The fingerprinting person told me that they get about 35 new CPL apps everyday..I was blown away! I was thinking 3 or 4.

    Thanks!
    We had this discussion over at nwcdl.org and came up with a FFL dealer being the other persons if you want to waive the 5 day wait.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    medlogic wrote:
    So, who are these "any other persons" and what law is being refered to.
    RCW 9.41.090:
    (1) In addition to the other requirements of this chapter, no dealer may deliver a pistol to the purchaser thereof until:

    (a) The purchaser produces a valid concealed pistol license and the dealer has recorded the purchaser's name, license number, and issuing agency, such record to be made in triplicate and processed as provided in subsection (5) of this section. [...]
    So, gun store employees, if you don't have written notification from the county sheriff or city chief of police that you are eligible to purchase a handgun and that the sheriff/chief does not object to the purchase or you aren't willing to wait five business days (i.e. a week) to take delivery.

    (ETA: Cross-posted with joeroket there. Hey, the SQL problem's been fixed. Yay!)

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    I was quite surprised by this.
    You really shouldn't be: WA has had concealed-carry since the 60's. And look at the volume of postings here in the WA forum, relative to most other states.



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    Euromutt wrote:
    medlogic wrote:
    So, who are these "any other persons" and what law is being refered to.
    RCW 9.41.090:
    (1) In addition to the other requirements of this chapter, no dealer may deliver a pistol to the purchaser thereof until:

    (a) The purchaser produces a valid concealed pistol license and the dealer has recorded the purchaser's name, license number, and issuing agency, such record to be made in triplicate and processed as provided in subsection (5) of this section. [...]
    So, gun store employees, if you don't have written notification from the county sheriff or city chief of police that you are eligible to purchase a handgun and that the sheriff/chief does not object to the purchase or you aren't willing to wait five business days (i.e. a week) to take delivery.

    (ETA: Cross-posted with joeroket there. Hey, the SQL problem's been fixed. Yay!)
    The only part in buying a firearm that the chief/sheriff has is giving notification to the dealer during the background check that you are or are not eligible to receive the firearm. Purchasers are under no requirement to obtain or provide the dealer with written permission from the chief/sheriff.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    last time I went to the courthouse with a buddy for his cpl, there were 4 people ahead of us, and 3 that came after. In about 45 minutes!

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    joeroket wrote:
    The only part in buying a firearm that the chief/sheriff has is giving notification to the dealer during the background check that you are or are not eligible to receive the firearm. Purchasers are under no requirement to obtain or provide the dealer with written permission from the chief/sheriff.
    Correct, you don't need to have written authorization from the sheriff/chief to purchase a handgun from an FFL, but if you don't, you're stuck with the "five business days" waiting period. Ditto with a CPL (which, among things, is also written confrimation from the chief/sheriff that you've been checked and found clean); you don't need it to buy a handgun, but it allows you to sidestep the waiting period.

    Provided, that is, that you produce it and display it to the gun shop employee, as required by law.

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    Okay hold it. Waitaminute.
    Some folks are getting this process a little confused.

    See RCW 9.41.090 and read it thoroughly. (You'll find it on pages 47-49 of my book, in the Appendix section)

    You can take same day delivery of a handgun IF you produce a valid CPL and you have filled out the paperwork, which includes a 4473 AND the Washington State pistol paperwork...and you pass the NICS check

    IF you do not have a valid CPL, the application to purchase is sent to the police or sheriff and that begins the 5-business day wait. It is during that time that the police or sheriff will determine whether the prospective buyer is eligible to possess a handgun and notify the dealer in writing.

    (The dealer does the background check via the state system and NICS, HOWEVER "the chief of police or shariff...shall continue to check the department of social and health services' elecronic data base and with other agencies or resources as appropriate to determine whether the applicants are ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a firearm." under 9.41.090(2)(b)

    If, at the end of the five business days, the police or sheriff has not replied to the dealer one way or the other, the transaction may be completed, provided, of course, the buyer passed that NICS check.

    HOWEVER, if there is a question about the eligibility of the buyer to possess a handgun, then a hold is placed on the transaction and this hold can last up to 30 days (this can be extended) before allowing the transaction under 9.41.090 (4)

    If the buyer does not have a valid Washington ID card or driver's license, or has not been a resident of the state for the previous consecutive 90 days, the transaction can be held for up to sixty (60) days. 9.41.090(1)(c)

    This period allows the police or sheriff ample time to determine whether there are outstanding warrants, pending criminal charges or commitment proceedings against the prospective buyer..under 9.41.090(4)


    but there's no requirement to get some kind of letter ahead of time from the police or sheriff.

    Incidentally, Washington has had some kind of concealed carry since the 1930s.

    I gather some of you aren't from around here.

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    Thanks for the clarification Dave. Some of the people here may not be from around here, I am from here, but we are all sure glad that you are.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    And... something that Dave missed was the wording of the RCW is that the FFL-holder "may" forego the 5 day waiting period if the CPL is produced. That means you can produce the CPL and they can say "Oh, that's nice, thanks for showing me, but I'm still going to have you wait for the more current check with the police to make sure your CPL isn't forfeit."

    BTW, Dave, thanks for talking to the Boeing Gun Club... I had an interesting encounter at Sheri's in Totem Lake where I walked passed a girl I know that works at the Redmond Denny's and she said to a friend "Is that legal?" and as I started to sit down, the guy across from her says "yeah, as long as it's open on his hip he doesn't need a conceal permit." Then the girl said "Excuse me..." to me and I turned and without saying anything, handed her a black and white copy of the WA Gun Rights pamphlet... THEN the guy that told her it was legal said "Oh, yeah, I already have one of those."

    I guess he got one from you when you talked to the BGC at some point. He said "Yeah, some guy, the senior editor of Gun News or something, came to talk to us and handed those out." and I said, "Oh, Dave Workman?", "Yeah, that's the guy."

    Keep up the good work Dave!
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

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    Dave Workman wrote:
    Okay hold it. Waitaminute.
    Some folks are getting this process a little confused.
    No. We're saying exactly the same thing, only we're saying in different ways.

    See RCW 9.41.090 and read it thoroughly. (You'll find it on pages 47-49 of my book, in the Appendix section)
    Or you can just follow the link I posted earlier.

    (1) In addition to the other requirements of this chapter, no dealer may deliver a pistol to the purchaser thereof until:

    (a) The purchaser produces a valid concealed pistol license and the dealer has recorded the purchaser's name, license number, and issuing agency, such record to be made in triplicate and processed as provided in subsection (5) of this section. For purposes of this subsection (1)(a), a "valid concealed pistol license" does not include a temporary emergency license, and does not include any license issued before July 1, 1996, unless the issuing agency conducted a records search for disqualifying crimes under RCW 9.41.070 at the time of issuance;

    (b) The dealer is notified in writing by the chief of police or the sheriff of the jurisdiction in which the purchaser resides that the purchaser is eligible to possess a pistol under RCW 9.41.040 and that the application to purchase is approved by the chief of police or sheriff; or

    (c) Five business days, meaning days on which state offices are open, have elapsed from the time of receipt of the application for the purchase thereof as provided herein by the chief of police or sheriff designated in subsection (5) of this section, and, when delivered, the pistol shall be securely wrapped and shall be unloaded. However, if the purchaser does not have a valid permanent Washington driver's license or state identification card or has not been a resident of the state for the previous consecutive ninety days, the waiting period under this subsection (1)(c) shall be up to sixty days.
    Italics mine.
    No, there's no requirement to get written clearance ahead of time from the sheriff or chief of police, but it is an option, as set out in subsection (1)(b).

    It may not have been entirely clear that this was what I was talking about previously, but hopefully it is now.

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    Euromutt wrote:

    ****
    (b) The dealer is notified in writing by the chief of police or the sheriff of the jurisdiction in which the purchaser resides that the purchaser is eligible to possess a pistol under RCW 9.41.040 and that the application to purchase is approved by the chief of police or sheriff; or

    Italics mine.
    No, there's no requirement to get written clearance ahead of time from the sheriff or chief of police, but it is an option, as set out in subsection (1)(b).
    But that's not what (b)(i) says nor what it means.
    There is no requirement, nor any provision, in state statute for getting prior approval from a police agency or sheriff's department to purchase a firearm. The option doesn't exist.

    That written notification comes AFTER the paperwork is filled out and sent in by the dealer. That's how it works.

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    Dave Workman wrote:
    That written notification comes AFTER the paperwork is filled out and sent in by the dealer. That's how it works.
    So if I understand you correctly, if you don't have a CPL, the FFL submits your purchase application to the chief of police of the city, or sheriff of the county where you live; if the chief/sheriff informs the FFL within 5 business days that there's no problem with you buying a handgun, the FFL can hand over the weapon at that point. That's what is provided under subsection (1)(b), correct?

    So then you're still looking at a two-day wait at least, one for the FFL to mail the paperwork to the sheriff's office/police department and one for the SO/PD to mail their response (assuming they complete checking your bona fides on the day they receive the paperwork)?

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    Euromutt wrote:
    Dave Workman wrote:
    That written notification comes AFTER the paperwork is filled out and sent in by the dealer. That's how it works.
    So if I understand you correctly, if you don't have a CPL, the FFL submits your purchase application to the chief of police of the city, or sheriff of the county where you live; if the chief/sheriff informs the FFL within 5 business days that there's no problem with you buying a handgun, the FFL can hand over the weapon at that point. That's what is provided under subsection (1)(b), correct?

    So then you're still looking at a two-day wait at least, one for the FFL to mail the paperwork to the sheriff's office/police department and one for the SO/PD to mail their response (assuming they complete checking your bona fides on the day they receive the paperwork)?
    Some dealers, not all, will fax the paper to the local agency, who in turn will fax it back upon completion of the LAC (local agency check). The dealer still has the option to delay or deny the transfer depending upon circumstances that become apparent during or after the paperwork is faxed or mailed. ie. straw purchase.

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    Oh yeah, faxes. It's been so long since I used one I'd forgotten they were still in common use for transmitting signed documents and the like.

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    just_a_car wrote:
    [quote
    BTW, Dave, thanks for talking to the Boeing Gun Club... I had an interesting encounter at Sheri's in Totem Lake where I walked passed a girl I know that works at the Redmond Denny's and she said to a friend "Is that legal?" and as I started to sit down, the guy across from her says "yeah, as long as it's open on his hip he doesn't need a conceal permit." Then the girl said "Excuse me..." to me and I turned and without saying anything, handed her a black and white copy of the WA Gun Rights pamphlet... THEN the guy that told her it was legal said "Oh, yeah, I already have one of those."

    I guess he got one from you when you talked to the BGC at some point. He said "Yeah, some guy, the senior editor of Gun News or something, came to talk to us and handed those out." and I said, "Oh, Dave Workman?", "Yeah, that's the guy."





    It makes me so damn happy still to hear about how this pamphlet is getting around!
    JFK said it best: ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country

    Keep up the good work Dave!
    [/quote]

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    Euromutt wrote:
    So if I understand you correctly, if you don't have a CPL, the FFL submits your purchase application to the chief of police of the city, or sheriff of the county where you live; if the chief/sheriff informs the FFL within 5 business days that there's no problem with you buying a handgun, the FFL can hand over the weapon at that point. That's what is provided under subsection (1)(b), correct?

    So then you're still looking at a two-day wait at least, one for the FFL to mail the paperwork to the sheriff's office/police department and one for the SO/PD to mail their response (assuming they complete checking your bona fides on the day they receive the paperwork)?
    (1)(b) is attached grammatically to he word "until" in Paragraph (1) in which it says ..."no dealer may deliver a pistol to the purchaser thereof until:

    and then (1)(b) ends with the term or
    which leads us to (1)(c)

    ..."Five business days meaning days on which state offices are open, have elapsed from the time of receipt of the application for the purchase..."

    So, if the dealer hasn't heard back after five business days from the day the application was received by the police/sheriff...and yes, we do have faxes...then the transaction may be completed.

    But then there's that nasty little However, midway in (1)(c), where it explains that a hold of up to sixty days can be put on the transaction if the buyer does not have a valid Washington driver''s license or state identification card.

    And all of this explains why there is a Section (2) and (3) and (4), which everyone should read and understand.

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    just_a_car wrote:
    And... something that Dave missed was the wording of the RCW is that the FFL-holder "may" forego the 5 day waiting period if the CPL is produced. That means you can produce the CPL and they can say "Oh, that's nice, thanks for showing me, but I'm still going to have you wait for the more current check with the police to make sure your CPL isn't forfeit."
    Show me where it says this in the statute. The dealer has no authority under law to make such a discretionary call. If you have a CPL that is valid...meaning the date on the CPL clearly shows the CPL to be current and not expired...the dealer is obliged by the statute to complete the transfer.

    BTW, Dave, thanks for talking to the Boeing Gun Club... I had an interesting encounter at Sheri's in Totem Lake where I walked passed a girl I know that works at the Redmond Denny's and she said to a friend "Is that legal?" and as I started to sit down, the guy across from her says "yeah, as long as it's open on his hip he doesn't need a conceal permit." Then the girl said "Excuse me..." to me and I turned and without saying anything, handed her a black and white copy of the WA Gun Rights pamphlet... THEN the guy that told her it was legal said "Oh, yeah, I already have one of those."

    I guess he got one from you when you talked to the BGC at some point. He said "Yeah, some guy, the senior editor of Gun News or something, came to talk to us and handed those out." and I said, "Oh, Dave Workman?", "Yeah, that's the guy."

    Keep up the good work Dave!
    Well, thank you.
    But the book is not exactly "black and white." It has a green and white cover.

    And trust me on this, I didn't just "hand" those out. They were purchased!

    If it was something else, it was a rip-off, perhaps even what they call "theft of intellectual property" and I certainly want to know about that.

    Stay safe out there.

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    I'm pretty sure he was referring to the WA State Gun Rights pamphlet being developed here.

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    Dave,

    Regarding the original question about:

    or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.
    Clearly this can't apply to the firearms-sale situation, as in that case the CPL hold can simply not show his CPL and wait the waiting period.

    But what I'm wondering about is whether this provision was originally meant as a placeholder for any future must-show-permit requirement that might be added elsewhere in the RCW.

    E.g. say the legislature added to the section on school carry (9.41.280) the requirement to show your permit on demand to any school official, when carrying under one of the exceptions in that section, but neglected to add this requirement to 9.41.050 1(b), which read only "shall display the same upon demand to any police officer". Now there would be a conflict between the two sections of the RCW. By including the addition phrase "or to any other person when and if required by law to do so" they are preventing that situation from occurring.

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    kparker wrote:
    Dave,

    Regarding the original question about:

    or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.
    Clearly this can't apply to the firearms-sale situation, as in that case the CPL hold can simply not show his CPL and wait the waiting period.

    But what I'm wondering about is whether this provision was originally meant as a placeholder for any future must-show-permit requirement that might be added elsewhere in the RCW.

    E.g. say the legislature added to the section on school carry (9.41.280) the requirement to show your permit on demand to any school official, when carrying under one of the exceptions in that section, but neglected to add this requirement to 9.41.050 1(b), which read only "shall display the same upon demand to any police officer". Now there would be a conflict between the two sections of the RCW. By including the addition phrase "or to any other person when and if required by law to do so" they are preventing that situation from occurring.
    Clearly it does apply. The purchaser is required under law to produce a valid CPL to a dealer if the purchaser wishes to have the 5 day wait negated. There are other options that are statutorily available to the buyer so it is not required to complete the sale and take deliver at a later date, only if he wishes to take it home the same day.

    The provision may very well be a placeholder as the legislators that drafted the law may have been thinking about future needs, or it was just to cover thier butts because they did not want to do research to see if there was another statute that required a CPL holder to show his license. Regardless if it is required by law to show your CPL then there is obviously another RCW giving you the requirement to show it so it makes that statementnull and void anyway.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    kparker wrote:
    Dave,

    Regarding the original question about:

    or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.
    Clearly this can't apply to the firearms-sale situation, as in that case the CPL hold can simply not show his CPL and wait the waiting period.

    But what I'm wondering about is whether this provision was originally meant as a placeholder for any future must-show-permit requirement that might be added elsewhere in the RCW.

    E.g. say the legislature added to the section on school carry (9.41.280) the requirement to show your permit on demand to any school official, when carrying under one of the exceptions in that section, but neglected to add this requirement to 9.41.050 1(b), which read only "shall display the same upon demand to any police officer". Now there would be a conflict between the two sections of the RCW. By including the addition phrase "or to any other person when and if required by law to do so" they are preventing that situation from occurring.
    Clearly it does apply. The purchaser is required under law to produce a valid CPL to a dealer if the purchaser wishes to have the 5 day wait negated. There are other options that are statutorily available to the buyer so it is not required to complete the sale and take deliver at a later date, only if he wishes to take it home the same day.

    The provision may very well be a placeholder as the legislators that drafted the law may have been thinking about future needs, or it was just to cover thier butts because they did not want to do research to see if there was another statute that required a CPL holder to show his license. Regardless if it is required by law to show your CPL then there is obviously another RCW giving you the requirement to show it so it makes that statementnull and void anyway.
    And if the purchaser opts for the 5 day waiting period it DOES NOT apply and the over rides your reasoning. There is no requirement to show unless YOU, the purchaserchoose to do so and that makes it a non-requirement.

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    Bear the buyer is required to show it under law by section 1(a) but not required under 1(b) or 1(c). You are trying to read it as a whole and not independant pieces that make up the code. Like I said before if the buyer wishes to forego the 5 day wait he is required by section 1(a) to provide a valid CPL. If the buyer does not wish to forego the wait then he is not required to produce a valid CPL because the buyer is opting to comply with section 1(b) or 1(c).
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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