OC in Indiana County

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Lowered my standards and drove my wife to Indiana to visit Wally World.

Blue jeans, Vietnam Vet baseball cap, regular collared shirt, tucked in, Hi-Point C-9 Compact in a Fobus holster on my right hip, spare magazine on the back of my belt.

Wandered all around Wally World, picked up some 115-grain FMJ and 147-grain JHP ammo, tracked down my wife in the food section, and filled up the cart accordingly.

Nobody followed me around. Nobody said anything. For that matter, I don't even know if anybody noticed anything.

Handed the older sales clerk at the sporting goods counter a PAFOA Pennsylvania Gun Rights pamphlet. He appreciated it.

It's too warm outside for concealed carry.

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Today I took my sister in-law down to Johnstown to catch the train back to Connecticut. All the time she's been here she never commented once about my open carry, not that I went out much with her (picked her up at the train station OCing, had dinner in a local restaurant yesterday OCing, and dropped her off at the train station OCing) - my wife did most of the running around.

Today I stopped at Sheetz in Carrolltown for gas, OCing of course, then it was down to Johnstown. Got there ten minutes early, the train was an hour late. So, we spent the hour up on the platform watching trains and talking with people (fairly crowded, too).

One eight-year-old boy noticed my pistol and immediately had to tell me all about the guns his grandfather had, plus his very own BB gun. When the train finally arrived, one of the Trainmen wanted to know if I was carrying a "Gluck" (yes, that's what he said). I gave him a Pa. Firearms Rights flyer.

One more stop at Sheetz in Carrolltown on the way home, this time for coffee, then a stop at the First Commonwealth Bank for some money (a legal withdrawal, of course). Chatted with the tellers.

Uneventful open carry. Nobody shot, nobody with bladder-control problems, no urgent 911 calls, no SWAT teams surrounding me.

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Borough Council meeting tonight (I'm Council President). As with last month, nobody mentioned a word about my open carry. Our local newspaper reporter didn't even notice it until it was pointed out to her (my Hi-Point C9 is kind of hard to miss with Desert Tan grips). No, she's not going to mention it in the newspaper write-up of the meeting. I informed her about Kirkwood, Missouri and the council meeting gone bad; she agreed with my reason for carrying. Nope, no police presence at our council meeting, either.

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Hey, do me a favor and PM me the next time there's a council meeting, I'd like to attend one (mostly for the experience), and one with someone I "know" there would be a lot more comfortable to me.

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OC today in Indiana, Went to Fire Moutain for dinner with my wife. Noissues but 1 question as to where someone could get training gave them contact info and Pa Gun Rightsflier. I'm a certified instructor. Then went to Lowes to get some fruit trees (Time for fall planting) and look around for about an hour and a half. No issues a few looks. Then to WallyWorld for groceries and other supplies took about 2 hrs. Again no issues.

Guess the folks are getting used to me in Indiana, Pa

All in all a non issue day.

Ed

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A few days ago at BiLo, I got the "Are you a cop?" question and gave a two minute clarification to a terrified looking employee.

It's not worth posting a transcript of the conversation, since as soon as I elaborated for him, he seemed to accept that I wasn't doing anything wrong.

My fiancee mused that given the fact that he was wearing an apron like they wear in the butcher's area, and I was way up in the front in produce, someone must have bet him that he wouldn't go confront me. Sounds plausible, given that I had seen at least two managers wandering about already and neither of them said a word to me.

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Print up some Pa. Gun Rights flyers and stick them in your wallet. The next time anyone comments, give them a flyer.

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Should maybe title this thread, "Throw out to hook, see who bites"

Went to a Borough Council meeting tonight, the first since I resigned as Borough Council President back in the beginning of November. If you remember, I open carried at the Borough Council meetings. Nobody said word one about it. Tonight I attended as a Citizen and sat in the Peanut Gallery with everyone else.

I came in, my light jacket (of course) rode up and over my holstered Hi-Point C9. I sat on the left side of the building to be with some other former council members. One of the locals came in and sat to my right. He looked at me, then looked at my hip. His eyes got big as saucers! He asked me, "Is that thing loaded?" I, of course, responded, "Wouldn't be any good if it was empty."

Immediately his hand went into the air, "Mr. President, Mr. President, before this meeting starts, is it legal for someone to bring a loaded handgun into a Borough Council meeting? In a Government building?"

I was half-expecting the Borough Council President to say something stupid, but one of the other council members piped up that it was indeed perfectly legal, which shut him up. But then the council member blew it and stated it was only legal because they didn't have any "No Guns" signs posted.

I immediately responded that such a sign would be illegal, to which the council member responded that she knows the law. Oh well.

On my way out I handed the objecting resident (whose own sister thinks he's an asshole) a Pa. Open Carry flyer and said, "Read it. You'll get an education." He had no response to make.

And now, to head off our borough council from doing something stupid, I'm going to have to write a letter to the councilwoman in question (and the Borough Council President) advising them of what State Preemption is, how it applies and what the consequences would be of any inappropriate action on their part (including having every PAFOA member in Western Pennsylvania show up, each wearing a sidearm).

On a bright note, the new Borough Solicitor (who had been silent through all of this) came over and shook my hand upon learning that I was the Borough Councilman who had introduced the ordinance requiring all residents to own a gun (yeah, I know, totally unenforceable, and the motion went down in flames, but it sure got the town on the map!). I gave him a Pa. Open Carry flyer also.

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I would drive up carrying of course, for this event.



I am a former IUP student and would love the help educate the area on said laws.

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A letter was indeed sent to Borough Council pointing out what the consequences of putting up a "No Guns" sign would be. My goal is to nip this thing in the bud, before anyone gets any stupid ideas. Letter was as follows:

Dear [Borough] President H****,

At Tuesday night’s council meeting the question was asked by B**** if it was legal to carry a loaded firearm at a council meeting. I was pleased to hear Councilwoman L****’s response that it was indeed legal. I was not, however, pleased to hear her further respond that a “No Guns” sign would make it illegal. When I pointed out that such a sign would be illegal, she stated that she knew the law.

Does her statement infer that such a sign might possibly be posted at some time in the future? I sincerely hope not. My desire here is to stave off any well-intentioned attempt by any council member to infringe on or impede the rights of the citizens by pointing out state law and case law on the subject.

• State Law: Section 6120 of Pennsylvania’s Uniform Firearms Act states that no municipality may in any manner regulate the lawful possession of firearms when carried for purposes not prohibited by law. Should someone on borough council decide to put up a “No Guns” sign, such an action would indeed constitute “regulating” the lawful possession (which includes carrying) of firearms. State law clearly prohibits a borough council from doing such.

• Case Law: In Allegheny County Sportsmen’s League v. City of Pittsburgh (Allegheny County Court of Common Pleas), Minich v. Jefferson County (Pennsylvania Court of Appeals) and Ortiz v. Commonwealth (Pennsylvania Supreme Court), the courts all recognized that any attempt of regulating the owning or carrying of firearms was a matter for the State Legislature – any attempt at local regulation was preempted by State Law.

The carrying of a firearm at a Borough Council Meeting, or in a “government” building (whatever that is) is legal throughout the Commonwealth, with relatively few exceptions. As is public knowledge, I routinely open carried my 9mm pistol at council meetings while serving as Borough Council President. There was not one complaint or question about my legal carry of such for self defense purposes, either by fellow council members (who were all personally informed of the fact, and the reasons thereof) or by citizens attending the meetings (who would have been hard-pressed not to notice the handgun and holster on my right hip when I stood for the Pledge of Allegiance – including B****).

Should someone on council decide to do something foolish, such as the putting up of a “No Guns” sign, please advise them that a violation of the Pennsylvania’s Preemption statute is a first degree misdemeanor under Title 18, Pa. C.S. §6119 and is recognized as having the same level of legal severity as “involuntary manslaughter” (Title 18, Pa. C.S. §2504). Additionally, when the offense occurs, there is also the risk of criminal conspiracy charges against each individual directly involved because of the fact that this is a long-settled matter of case law. And all of this is before any civil action occurs.

Additionally, any borough official or police officer attempting to enforce such an illegal sign would be in violation of Pennsylvania's Official Oppression statute (Title 18, Pa. C.S. §5301). The Official Oppression statute establishes that anyone who “denies or impedes another in the exercise or enjoyment of any right, privilege, power or immunity” can be found guilty of this offense. A conviction under this section is a second degree misdemeanor, which is sufficient to classify that person as “prohibited,” and bar them from owning, possessing or carrying firearms for life.

The Borough of Dickson City and the City of Allentown are currently involved in Federal lawsuits revolving around various civil rights issues (all related to the lawful carry of firearms for self defense). The City of Pittsburgh and the Borough of West Mifflin are dangerously close to litigation as well. The Borough of Cherry Tree does not need to be added to this list.

Government bodies, both small and large, throughout the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are beginning to recognize that the lawful possession and carrying of firearms, including into council meetings, is not something to get upset over. Pennsylvania’s firearms owners, through organizations such as Pennsylvania Open Carry and the Pennsylvania Firearms Owner’s Association, are educated, articulate, and are willing to stand up against such government bodies when it's necessary to remind them that we know our rights.

It is my hope that his letter will be accepted as of an educational nature, and not confrontational. My attendance at borough council meetings, even while wearing a firearm for personal protection, is not intended to be confrontational. However, should a council member decide that my attendance, armed, be impeded in any manner, you have now been appraised of State Law and this letter serves as express actual notice of such.

Respectfully yours,

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Damn. Talk about doing your homework.