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Thread: Semiautomatic Gun And Rifles Seized At Port Of Entry. ESL reporterette?

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    http://www.kfoxtv.com/news/15670294/detail.html

    EL PASO, Texas -- [/b]Officials said U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents seized more than 23 guns from alleged arms traffickers at the border.

    Among the seized weapons were rifles, casings and a semiautomatic .50-caliber weapon, the largest caliber weapon one can purchase legally.

    The weapons were found inside a load of shingles in the back of a van on the Stanton Street bridge.El Pasoan John Aguilar acted as an alleged "straw man," purchasing the weapons to sell to Mexican citizens.

    He, along with Jonathan Lopez Gutierrez and Jose Alfredo Amador of Juarez, Mexico, were arrested.

    "Our goal is to prevent the acquiring of firearms by any criminal element whether they're on the United States side or the Mexican side. We want to keep these firearms out of the hands of people who use them for illegal activities," said an ICE agent.

    It's unclear if the weapons were headed for organized crime groups.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Again, it becomes obvious to anyone with even half a brain that fencing and militarizing our southern border is a crime, security and soveriegnty issue. Glad to see the BATFE finally going after actual bad buys rather than law abiding gun owners who are doing their best to follow the tens of thousand, often ridiculous by any standard, gun laws and regulations. Doesn't improve their reputation, it just confirms that every once in a while even a blind squirrel finds an acorn.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    This is a status-crime question, but of the things or the men?

    The weapons are not per se illegal, the people are not per se illegal, the method of transportation is not per se illegal.

    It appears that the only illegality is the absence of an export license - a privilege reserved to the First Class Citizenship's peerage (the national government)? Must it be also required for transactions between these citizens (of at least indeterminate status)?

    Hoplophobia (a term not often recently seen) runs deep.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    The guns were carefully hidden and being taken over the border into Mexico.

    I am pretty sure they areprohibited itemsto be brought intoMexico. This is a large number of guns and many are the same type so I am going to believe that this is not for someones private collection.

    All were likely obtained legally... but the act of trying to sneak them over the border.. not so innocent! It has the signs of a arms smuggler at work.



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    So the method of transportation is presumed illegal, analogous to the presumption of guilt?

    Again, this is a status-crime that would have been obviated by an export license.

    Battalion! Stand at ease!

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    This has nothing to do with status.

    When you take the time to hide legal items "inside a load of shingles in the back of a van" it is going to raise some questions.

    Not to mention.... this is not a simple "I bought a gun and am taking it to Mexico."

    There is a known problem with arms being smuggled into Mexico since they can only own a certain type and most others or forbidden.

    So I am going to have to say the guns that were being smuggled.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law#Mexico

    ==Mexico==

    Even though Article 10 of the Mexican Constitution declares the right to bear arms, it is currently illegal in Mexico for any civilian to own a fire arm of any caliber used, tested, or currently in use by the Mexican Government or Military.

    This limits a citizen to legally own a .22 to .380 caliber rifle or similar firearm.

    Ownership of any centerfire caliber designed for automatic or military rifles is forbidden.


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    I can understand what Doug is trying to say. These men commited no crime, all and any charges that could be brought on them are ASSumed. Albeit all signs point to the obvious I don't think that people should go to jail on ASSumptions. This is why we have the state of affairs that we do. Weak blattered people feel that the goverment is in place to protect them so that they do not have to don the responsibility of protecting themselves.

    If anything this is a stark reminder that the bad guys will have guns, so act accordingly and dress for success.

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    WhiteFeather wrote:
    I can understand what Doug is trying to say. These men commited no crime, all and any charges that could be brought on them are ASSumed. Albeit all signs point to the obvious I don't think that people should go to jail on ASSumptions. This is why we have the state of affairs that we do. Weak blattered people feel that the goverment is in place to protect them so that they do not have to don the responsibility of protecting themselves.

    If anything this is a stark reminder that the bad guys will have guns, so act accordingly and dress for success.
    Excuse me?

    Did you not notice that the guns they were trying to take into Mexico were illegal?

    These are not innocent men here. Even if they bought all the guns legally.. they were trying to commit a crime. And I am confident that with so many guns they would be selling them in Mexico for far more than what they paid.

    And obviously... the charges of smuggling are assumed.They will have their day in court to explain why they were taking a large number of guns into Mexico that are illegal.


    Maybe you should read this too

    http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_8656815



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    I think some of us may have a different perspective if the day ever comes when we find ourselves in a country where guns are all but banned. Those smugglers might not seem so evil after all...

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    I doubt that they were smuggling them to arm a revolutionary force arming itself in preparation to defend itself against a corrupt, tyrannical government denying them rights protected under their national constitution. I'll bet that they were smuggling them to drug runners and coyotes who would eventually use them against US citizens as they perpetrated illegal acts threatening the health, welfare and sovereignty of the United States and her citizens.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    I doubt that they were smuggling them to arm a revolutionary force arming itself in preparation to defend itself against a corrupt, tyrannical government denying them rights protected under their national constitution. I'll bet that they were smuggling them to drug runners and coyotes who would eventually use them against US citizens as they perpetrated illegal acts threatening the health, welfare and sovereignty of the United States and her citizens.
    And that's what Big Brother will tell us, too.

    If we're speculating, though, I doubt that organized crime is going to rely on 20-gun shipments of glorified hunting rifles...

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    :what: I'm just stunned that you would even try to make that comparison. I have tried to come up with a cogent response but the relativism is so ridiculous that I don't even know where to start. I'm just going to have to walk away for the moment ....
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    And that's what Big Brother will tell us, too.

    If we're speculating, though, I doubt that organized crime is going to rely on 20-gun shipments of glorified hunting rifles...
    Hunting Rifles?? Not sure an M-4 is used for sport hunting.... There were several there and I think an AK. Plus the 50 cal....

    Oh Wait... were you talking about hunting man? Those guns are PERFECT for that. I believe they were actually designed and combat tested for several years.

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    Among the seized weapons were rifles, casings and a semiautomatic .50-caliber weapon, the largest caliber weapon one can purchase legally.
    What illegal weapons?
    These are not innocent men (snip) bought all the guns legally
    And obviously... the charges of smuggling are assumed.
    So first you either read something I didn't or assumed something that wasn't. Then you contradicted yourself, And then admitted what I wrote was correct.

    Leo I have a great respect for your perspective as you are what I hope to become.

    But as I stated assuming that everyone is a criminal until prove otherwise is not what the founders had in mindwhen we began this whole experimentand right or wrong I stated that I felt this is what Doug was hinting at.





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    WhiteFeather wrote:
    Among the seized weapons were rifles, casings and a semiautomatic .50-caliber weapon, the largest caliber weapon one can purchase legally.
    What illegal weapons?
    [line]

    These are not innocent men (snip) bought all the guns legally
    And obviously... the charges of smuggling are assumed.
    So first you either read something I didn't or assumed something that wasn't. Then you contradicted yourself, And then admitted what I wrote was correct.

    Leo I have a great respect for your perspective as you are what I hope to become.

    But as I stated assuming that everyone is a criminal until prove otherwise is not what the founders had in mindwhen we began this whole experimentand right or wrong I stated that I felt this is what Doug was hinting at.
    You chopped up what I said so that it makes little sense....

    You say something that makes no sense and then you want me to make sense of it.

    Nobody is assuming they are anything more than what a reasonable man would believe.

    To me... from what I have observed and the conditions I believe they are gun smugglers.

    If hiding a bunch of guns that are desired by the outlaws in Mexico... in the center of a bunch of material so they would be hard to detect... andhappen to be against Mexico law based on the caliber....

    PLEASE EXPLAIN TO US WHAT THEY WERE DOING!!!!

    I am LOVE to know what other "reasonable" explanation there is.

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    I think there are a lot of reasons to think it was probably arms smuggling:


    WITNESS: Following a hit man's rifle to Mexico

    Tim Gaynor is a Reuters correspondent based in Phoenix who covers immigration in the United States and writes about crime and security along the Mexico border. In the following story, he tells how he traced a Kalashnikov rifle bought in Arizona to a mining town in Mexico where it was used by a drug gang in a battle with police and troops that killed 23 people.
    By Tim Gaynor
    PHOENIX (Reuters) - The agent raised the machine gun to his shoulder and let rip a deafening hail of shots that smacked through a bullet proof vest, punched holes in a car door and spat up a plume of sand in the levee behind.
    Taking the plugs out of my ringing ears, I walked over the gritty desert firing range to look at the damage from the Kalashnikov.
    The traffic of guns of this type from the United States to the warring Mexican drug cartels is the less-reported flip side of the drugs trade north from Mexico and South America.
    I have covered crime on the U.S.-Mexico border for several years, and was trying to grasp first hand the devastating power of the weapons used in Mexican crime, the ease with which they are trafficked over the border, and the human cost for the Mexican authorities so often in the firing line.
    "This is the type of fire power that we are seeing being trafficked into Mexico and arming the cartels," said Tom Mangan, a senior ATF special agent with the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, examining the debris from the firing and explaining the effects.
    Last year, Mexican cartels murdered more than 2,500 people in an all-out war for lucrative drug routes to the United States worth billions of dollars. Many were shot using assault rifles readily and legally available in the United States, and trafficked to Mexico, where gun sales are banned.
    Earlier, I had gotten into my pickup truck to follow the route of one semi-automatic Kalashnikov that was bought at a Phoenix gun store. It turned up a year later in a raging gun battle around the mining town of Cananea in northern Mexico that killed 23 people.
    The rifle, like thousands of others, was bought in what they call a "straw purchase" -- where a third party is paid to buy guns to order for a cartel "gatekeeper" -- then driven over the desert to Mexico.
    I crossed through the tiny border town of Naco, Ariz., where in 1916 troops under General John Pershing had pursued bandit-turned-revolutionary Pancho Villa into Mexico during the Mexican revolution.
    A road sign near the adobe border garret read "Warning: Firearms and Ammunition Illegal in Mexico." I saw a Mexican immigration agent rearranging a few traffic cones on the road, but no one stopped me to ask for my passport, much less check the truck.
    I could have had a case of rifles in the back.
    It took less than an hour over a narrow, winding road to reach Cananea, where on May 16, 2007 armed assailants drove into town in a convoy. Once they had methodically set up roadblocks, they started the killing, shooting dead five police officers and two civilians.
    The assailants kidnapped ranch hands and commandeered horses, which they used to escape into the western Sierra Madre mountains. Police and troops were in hot pursuit and killed 16 of them before the day was out.
    I asked for directions to the police station to find out more about that day, which one man I spoke to referred to as the "matazon" or "big slaughter".
    Law enforcement official Pablo Cesar Angel Ortega was wrapped up against the cold in his office. He put in a call to ask a superior if he could talk to a reporter about the "sicarios" or hit men. He nodded and then spoke softly about the day he called "historic".
    Whether it is liberal U.S. gun laws, buoyant Mexican demand, or unchecked borders that are to blame for the slaughter, one thing was clear: the pain etched on Ortega's face.
    "We lost five of our colleagues," he said of the day the guns thundered. "You have to imagine, it's a small town and that's hard to bear."
    ATF agents work closely with Mexican authorities to staunch the flow of weapons south under Project Gunrunner, using a software program called e-trace to track guns from Mexican crime scenes to the dealers who sold them in the United States.
    The ATF frequently seizes military-grade weapons headed for the hit men, including assault rifles, high-powered "cop killer" pistols and huge quantities of ammunition bought in gun shops and at gun shows from California to Texas.
    "It doesn't matter what body armor you wear," said Mangan. "That round is going through the door, through the vest and right out the other side ... It's just like a hot knife through butter."
    http://www.reuters.com/article/domes...BrandChannel=0


    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    The ATF frequently seizes military-grade weapons headed for the hit men, including assault rifles, high-powered "cop killer" pistols and huge quantities of ammunition bought in gun shops and at gun shows from California to Texas.
    "It doesn't matter what body armor you wear," said Mangan. "That round is going through the door, through the vest and right out the other side ... It's just like a hot knife through butter."
    http://www.reuters.com/article/domes...BrandChannel=0

    :quirky


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    Luke 11:21
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    And that's what Big Brother will tell us, too.

    If we're speculating, though, I doubt that organized crime is going to rely on 20-gun shipments of glorified hunting rifles...
    Hunting Rifles?? Not sure an M-4 is used for sport hunting.... There were several there and I think an AK. Plus the 50 cal....

    Oh Wait... were you talking about hunting man? Those guns are PERFECT for that. I believe they were actually designed and combat tested for several years.
    What I meant... was that I'd think it would be easier and more cost effective to smuggle FA guns from other countries where FA guns are very prevalent and unregistered, than to smuggle semi-auto rifles and such and convert them.

    Regardless, I don't have much of a problem with gun smugglers, especially smuggling into a country where guns are heavily restricted. On my list of "bad people", I'd rate them a bit better than drug dealers but a bit worse than prostitutes, though they're all at the bottom of my list anyway. Just people selling goods and providing services that are in demand... merely violating some trade laws (more or less) in the process.

    Sorry to have offended anyone...

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    And that's what Big Brother will tell us, too.

    If we're speculating, though, I doubt that organized crime is going to rely on 20-gun shipments of glorified hunting rifles...
    Hunting Rifles?? Not sure an M-4 is used for sport hunting.... There were several there and I think an AK. Plus the 50 cal....

    Oh Wait... were you talking about hunting man? Those guns are PERFECT for that. I believe they were actually designed and combat tested for several years.
    What I meant... was that I'd think it would be easier and more cost effective to smuggle FA guns from other countries where FA guns are very prevalent and unregistered, than to smuggle semi-auto rifles and such and convert them.

    Regardless, I don't have much of a problem with gun smugglers, especially smuggling into a country where guns are heavily restricted. On my list of "bad people", I'd rate them a bit better than drug dealers but a bit worse than prostitutes, though they're all at the bottom of my list anyway. Just people selling goods and providing services that are in demand... merely violating some trade laws (more or less) in the process.

    Sorry to have offended anyone...
    They were not smuggling full auto guns here... Just guns that are popular with the drug dealers and thugs.

    But let me say this..... you know it is much harder to smuggle guns in from another country other than the US, right? The US is easy as all you have to do is cross the border. Any country outside South America requires customs to get involved if shipped in by water or air.

    Arms dealing is not as big as drug dealing... They do sully the drug dealers with arms to fight off the police and border patrols.

    Smugglers are definitely not as bad as dealers.. they are just trying to make a buck. But it is bad since they are providing guns that will kill the authorities who try to go after drug dealers.

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    Nevermind

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    LEO, the argument being made here is that they were arrested on U.S. soil for something that is not a violation of U.S. law. None of the firearms are illegal in the U.S., and method of transport is entirely up to the user.

    The article said they were stopped on the Stanton St. bridge in El Paso. If they were actually on the bridge, they had already passed the CBP checkpoint, so I suspect they were actually arrested at the checkpoint itself.

    The circumstances do make a case that they intended to export firearms without the required permission from the Department of State. But, the firearms and manner of possession were not otherwise illegal in the U.S.

    What if this stop had been made at an interior CBP checkpoint, which can be up to 100 miles from the border? (Yes, you can be required to clear CBP while driving entirely within the U.S., without ever leaving the country.)

    This boils down to a "time, place, manner" case, because what they were doing would not have been arrestable otherwise.


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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    I think some of us may have a different perspective if the day ever comes when we find ourselves in a country where guns are all but banned. Those smugglers might not seem so evil after all...
    Are the alleged smugglers Patriots or bad guys? I guess that depends on your point of view.

    Were they breaking U.S. Law or Mexican Law. They were arrested in the U.S. I know the response, they were gun smugglers, but I just don't see a crime. If they were hiding stolen property then there was a crime. Hiding guns under shingles is not breaking any law.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    If there was a crime here, it was a violation of Mexican law for trying to smuggle the guns into Mexico. The method of transporting was legal in the USA, i.e., unloaded, secured outside the passenger compartment and/or not readily available. The guns were legal in the USA except for the .50 semi-auto being banned in California but the method of transport should have covered that under the Gun Owners Bill of Rights. The purchaser was with the guns so he hadn't yet completed the alleged straw purchase; the guns were still his and in his possession.

    So, what I'm wondering, is why the USA BATFE arrested this guy. Why weren't the Mexican Federales tipped off and allowed to arrest the smugglers on THEIR side of the border, take them to a Mexican jail, try them under Mexican law, and let them serve time in a Mexican prison?

    The way this was conducted smells more like a publicity campaign to justify more USA firearms purchase surveillance and ownership registration laws.



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