Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Hassled!

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    I was also hassled by some blonde surfer stoner bag boy punk guy at Food Lion on W Market St...looked like he was 30 going after 15 year old chicks. Know the type?

    Me, in line with GF
    Him: You a cop?
    Me: No.
    Him: You have a permit? A license? Anything?
    Me: No, I don't have a CCW.
    Him: So you just carry your little nine millimeter on your hip?
    Me: Yes
    Him: I'm gonna go get me like a sawed-off shotgun, go around like a ninja or somethin' dude. [Bounces a little]
    Me: Open carry is legal here if you aren't a felon. You can't have a shotgun less than 18.5 inches, though.
    Him: I-I-I a-ain't a felon. That's wazzup dude...hmmnbabblebabble
    I walk off with my GF and shake my head.

    GF of course gave me grief. "You're attracting the wrong kind of attention! When are you going to get your CCW? I just don't like this!"

    Looking back I think it's funny...he was an ass. I put him in his place.
    I don't think it would have bothered her, except I got hassled at the Four Seasons mall (where I KNOW there is no law against OC or CC) a couple days before by a rent-a-badge and a Gboro town cop.

    Anyone who wants to know what happened can read this letter, which I plan on sending to shareholders or mall owners or whatever they are, this weekend, when I get their address. I will embolden the important segments for anyone who wants to skim. Let me know what you think about the letter, too, if you want, although it's a bit rambly. I was pissed when I wrote it.


    Dear Sir:

    I am writing about an incident in which I was involved in your mall yesterday, March 20, 2008. I am a law-abiding twenty-one year old college student. I was carrying a small handgun in a holster on my hip as I shopped in the mall. I have shopped there on and off since moving to Greensboro last summer. As I went up an escalator and stepped off of it, an Officer Lands accosted me, pointed to my hip, and said “What’s all this?” to which I replied “It is my handgun, sir.” I was with my girlfriend, and she began to get nervous. I was polite but firm, and told the officer that I was unaware I was doing anything wrong. He told me I “didn’t have any common sense” and that “people don’t do” what I was doing. Other than carrying a gun openly, which is my right under federal and North Carolina law, I was simply helping my girlfriend shop for new summer clothing. As a matter of fact, I mentioned to him, I know some people who do what I am doing. I told him I was unaware it was against any rule, to which he replied that there is a rule against it. I asked him why it wasn’t posted. He said “It’s posted everywhere.” I asked him to show me, and he simply replied “No. You know, I don’t like your attitude tonight. At all.” I had my hands well above my midsection and was not speaking loudly, yet some security officers flanked me. The officer was speaking loudly and his body language suggested he was upset. In short, it created quite a scene and shook up my girlfriend, who after all had merely come into your establishment to enjoy shopping for some clothing. The officer and a young man who works for you, named Shaw, told me I was required to leave.

    I went out into the parking lot and put my gun in the car. At that point I approached a man in a “Mall Security” SUV and asked him to speak to the two gentlemen who had asked me to leave. This man told me that if I felt I had been treated unfairly, I should get their names. He was very polite, which was a breath of fresh air. That’s what I did; in fact, I had a decent conversation with Officer Lands and felt we saw more eye-to-eye afterward.
    His personal opinion was that it is unwise to carry a pistol openly in public as a private citizen, which I disagree with. That disagreement is totally irrelevant to any capacity that he has as a police officer to enforce his own private opinion on me. He does not have that capacity, and it is perfectly legal and acceptable in our state to do what I like to do. I am a strong believer in the constitution, including the Second Amendment. If we do not exercise our rights, we lose them. I also believe in the right of private business owners to enforce their own rules. According to Officer Lands and Sgt. Shaw, that is all they were doing. But I would rather hear it from the horse’s mouth, so to speak. Shaw claimed that he was acting on some complaints from tenants, which I doubt, since he did not mention it in the mall. In my experience, people do not seem to care about my personal choice to carry a weapon openly. Frankly, I think Officer Lands was having a bad day. He’s not a bad-seeming fellow, and I respect police officers greatly. However, I do not appreciate ad-hoc rules that are made up on the spot to discriminate against me for exercising my rights and embarrassing me and my girlfriend in public.

    If there is a rule against weapons in the mall, why is there no signage to announce it? Why have I spoken numerous times with other people who carry a weapon openly in the mall yet don’t share my experience? Are there any other such exceptions to North Carolina law within the mall?

    If it is a matter of policy, I understand. I do think it should be posted though. If this is so then I will be taking my business elsewhere, such as Friendly Center, Wendover Center, and other places where I can exercise my constitutional rights without harassment—places where I am entitled to protect myself. And also quite frankly I think that if this rule is enforced strictly, there should be some other rules. It would be nice to go out in the parking lot and not see illegal gambling, disturbances of the peace, and public intoxication. I was even in the food court and witnessed an employee at a restaurant sexually harassing another employee. It was lewd and out in the open with security officers nearby. Unfortunately, while I lost my appetite, the security officers did nothing.

    I await your response. It is your choice to enforce any policies you may see fit, and I support your right to do so. However, I as an individual will also exercise my right to spend my money where I see fit. If we do not see eye to eye, I express my regret in advance. If that is the case, you have lost one customer.

    Thank you very much for reading this.


    My name here

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    8

    Post imported post




    Four Seasons Town Centre

    410 Four Seasons Town Centre

    Greensboro, North Carolina27427


  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    Thanks.

    I just need to figure out whom to address it to. Debated complaining about the punk at Food Lion but I don't think it's worth it.

    Can't believe the thing about Four Seasons though...it's true that being 18-25 is the worst age to open carry if you run into the wrong LEO.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Alamance county, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    104

    Post imported post

    Nicely written letter, conwict. I'm sorry to hear you were harassed by the officer.

    At the very end you mention them potentially losing *one* customer. Seems to me the reality is they are at risk of, now and over time, losing *many* customers. My family visits Greensboro on average every two to three months. Our decisions where to shop will surely take into account your experiences, and how at least this particular mall owner responds to your letter. You're far from alone.

    Please keep us posted. Depending on what happens, some more letter writing - from people like me - may be in order.



  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    I've got a name.

    David Houser is the Mall Manager apparently. I called and asked if there was anyone in charge of the entire mall, and the lady was VERY evasive. She tried to say "I'll transfer you to the post office." What?! Also, there is nothing on there site with ANY NAMES WHATSOEVER...goes to show how corporate America wants to distance itself from the consumer. I could "form submit" through the website...
    give me a break.

    Anyway, I may just send a copy of the letter to David Houser, addressed to the mall address I got from their main site, unless I can find another address to send it to.

    Maybe I'll do

    David Houser, c/o Four Seasons Town Centre
    etc.

    Update soon, I want to get this letter dropped in the mail today...

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    Okay, here is my plan. I am going to print three copies of the letter and address one of them to each of:

    Head of Security

    David Houser, Mall Manager

    Board of Trustees

    I'm going to print it on some nice linen paper and put it in the mail today. Hopefully I'll get a response soon.

    Here is the finished product.
    To: David Houser
    CC: Board of Trustees, Head of Security
    3/24/2008

    Dear Mr. Houser:

    I am writing about an incident in which I was involved in your mall a few days ago, March 20, 2008. I am a law-abiding twenty-one year old college student. I was carrying a small handgun in a holster on my hip as I shopped in the mall. I have shopped there on and off since moving to Greensboro last summer. As I went up an escalator and stepped off of it, an Officer Lands accosted me, pointed to my hip, and said “What’s all this?” to which I replied “It is my handgun, sir.” I was with my girlfriend, and she began to get nervous. I was polite but firm, and told the officer that I was unaware I was doing anything wrong. He told me I “didn’t have any common sense” and that “people don’t do” what I was doing. Other than carrying a gun openly, which is my right under federal and North Carolina law, I was simply helping my girlfriend shop for new summer clothing. As a matter of fact, I mentioned to him, I know some people who do what I am doing. I told him I was unaware it was against any rule, to which he replied that there is a rule against it. I asked him why it wasn’t posted. He said “It’s posted everywhere.” I asked him to show me, and he simply replied “No. You know, I don’t like your attitude tonight. At all.” I had my hands well above my midsection and was not speaking loudly, yet some security officers flanked me. The officer was speaking loudly and his body language suggested he was upset. In short, it created quite a scene and shook up my girlfriend, who after all had merely come into your establishment to enjoy shopping for some clothing. The officer and a young man who works for you, named Shaw, told me I was required to leave.

    I went out into the parking lot and put my gun in the car. At that point I approached a man in a “Mall Security” SUV and asked him to speak to the two gentlemen who had asked me to leave. This man told me that if I felt I had been treated unfairly, I should get their names. He was very polite, which was a breath of fresh air. That’s what I did; in fact, I had a decent conversation with Officer Lands and felt we saw more eye-to-eye afterward. His personal opinion was that it is unwise to carry a pistol openly in public as a private citizen, which I disagree with. That disagreement is totally irrelevant to any capacity that he has as a police officer to enforce his own private opinion on me. He does not have that capacity, and it is perfectly legal and acceptable in our state to do what I like to do. I am a strong believer in the constitution, including the Second Amendment. If we do not exercise our rights, we lose them. I also believe in the right of private business owners to enforce their own rules. According to Officer Lands and Sgt. Shaw, that is all they were doing. But I would rather hear it from the horse’s mouth, so to speak. Shaw claimed that he was acting on some complaints from tenants, which I doubt, since he did not mention it in the mall. In my experience, people do not seem to care about my personal choice to carry a weapon openly. Frankly, I think Officer Lands was having a bad day. He’s not a bad-seeming fellow, and I respect police officers greatly. However, I do not appreciate ad-hoc rules that are made up on the spot to discriminate against me for exercising my rights in order to embarrass my girlfriend and I in public.

    If there is a rule against weapons in the mall, why is there no signage to announce it? Why have I spoken numerous times with other people who carry a weapon openly in the mall yet don’t share my experience? Are there any other such exceptions to North Carolina law within the mall?

    If it is a matter of policy, I understand. I do think it should be posted though. If this is so then I will be taking my business elsewhere, such as Friendly Center, Wendover Center, and other places where I can exercise my constitutional rights without harassment—places where I am entitled to protect myself. And also quite frankly I think that if this rule is enforced strictly, there should be some other rules. It would be nice to go out in the parking lot and not see illegal gambling, disturbances of the peace, and public intoxication. I was even in the food court and witnessed an employee at a restaurant sexually harassing another employee. It was lewd and out in the open with security officers nearby. Unfortunately, while I lost my appetite, the security officers did nothing.

    I await your response. It is your choice to enforce any policies you may see fit, and I support your right to do so. However, I as an individual will also exercise my right to spend my money where I see fit. If we do not see eye to eye, I express my regret in advance. If that is the case, you have lost two customers and perhaps a significant number of other potential customers as well.

    Thank you very much for reading this. I shall await your reply via mail or telephone.





    My name
    My mailing addr.
    My contact info

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    Any response on this. I am a 20 year old college student as well, I wish people were educated on this.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    Wrote them, addressed it to those 3 various people, and now I'm just waiting on a response. I will "give up" after two weeks, but somehow I expect a response from someone out of the three I sent it to

    Will keep you posted. Ridiculous incident huh?

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    BTW, the most I am hoping for is a polite letter back explaining why I was asked to leave. It would be GREAT, though, if they invited to carry and "reserved the right" to ask me to leave again based on how I ACT, rather than what I legally carry on my hip.
    Maybe this will be a "landmark case" for the Four Seasons Town Centre

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    haha I feel for you man when r u able to get your concealed carry. I think alot of it is holy crap that young man has a gun. But also the area you live in some cities are more pro gun and sum are no guns no guns people die cities

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    That's true, but I don't see a need for my CCW right now. I could have gotten it, or registered for classes, this month, but decided to spend the $70 elsewhere.

    Basically I don't really see a need to get it because, like other posters here have stated, if I am in an area where I'm going to get attacked BECAUSE I'm carrying a gun, I'm already screwed. Better to stay out of those areas!

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    No reply back. I think I'll follow up by phone if possible, to the "Mr. Houser," if I don't get a letter or call by tomorrow.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    8

    Post imported post

    Any new news?...maybe you should have pointed out that if you didnt get a response that you would assume it was ok and you would keep OCing.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    902

    Post imported post

    I'm so tired of this nonsense.

    I would have simply asked the officer "am I being detained"? If the answer is yes, then "for suspicion of what criminal activity."

    After it gets down to his opinion, I would say "your law enforcement not opinion enforcement."

    If the LEO is curious then that's one thing, but to talk down to you or to illegally detain you is another thing.

    As far as posted property I have mixed feelings about that. I would agree that business should be able to post, but then everything else must be consistent. The property owner can keep anyone out for any reason, the property owner can allow smoking anywhere in the building, the owner could keep anyone out for even a disability (this would be intolerant but it would be consistent).

    Since society is moving towards restricting business owners, ie. smoking bans and stuff like that, then they should not have a choice over the lawful carrying of arms.

    I don't care which way it is, but society should be consistent about it. It seems the governmnent can regulate everything about a business as if it's government property, but then suddenly when it comes to carrying arms, it suddenly becomes private property more so than someones bedroom. This makes no sense.

  15. #15
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    conwict wrote:
    The officer and a young man who works for you, named Shaw, told me I was required to leave.

    I went out into the parking lot and put my gun in the car.
    You lost me at "put my gun in the car."

    If you are going to do this, why even bother open carrying?

  16. #16
    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    McKenzie Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    705

    Post imported post

    Jared wrote:
    As far as posted property I have mixed feelings about that. I would agree that business should be able to post, but then everything else must be consistent. The property owner can keep anyone out for any reason, the property owner can allow smoking anywhere in the building, the owner could keep anyone out for even a disability (this would be intolerant but it would be consistent).

    Since society is moving towards restricting business owners, ie. smoking bans and stuff like that, then they should not have a choice over the lawful carrying of arms.

    I don't care which way it is, but society should be consistent about it. It seems the governmnent can regulate everything about a business as if it's government property, but then suddenly when it comes to carrying arms, it suddenly becomes private property more so than someones bedroom. This makes no sense.
    I completely agree and used the government controlling smoking on private property (as they have done in TN) as example when I talked to my state legislature about carry issues,
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Newport News, VA, ,
    Posts
    236

    Post imported post

    Sounds good but I would leave out the opinion and the Constictutionality parts. Simply state the federal and state laws and that fact that nothing was posted. Amything further weakens your legal stance. Of course this is my opinion.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    Good points from everyone about the smoking ban vs carry issues. I wholeheartedly agree. I sent the letter a while back, as stated in the post, and have not gotten any replies back.

    Mike wrote:
    You lost me at "put my gun in the car."

    If you are going to do this, why even bother open carrying?
    I was on private property and had been asked to do so or leave. The cop was consorting with mall security guards to enforce this, and whether or not they were "allowed" to enforce a rule that doesn't exist, I didn't want my only handgun confiscated or, worse, to kiss the pavement because the cop was pissed that I had him summoned to the parking lot. I left after speaking with them, but this guy was not in a good mood and I felt there was a very real risk of being abused and mistreated if I gave him the slightest excuse. I could have foreseen him saying "I told you to put it in your car" and arresting me for trespassing...so, no thanks, I'm not going to jeopardize myself that way.


    I don't care which way it is, but society should be consistent about it. It seems the governmnent can regulate everything about a business as if it's government property, but then suddenly when it comes to carrying arms, it suddenly becomes private property more so than someones bedroom. This makes no sense.
    I agree... +1 on "consistency" especially!

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    8

    Post imported post

    Any new news from the mall?

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    None. Haven't returned to the mall, either. Will probably re-cc it and say "I thought so; I guess I won't be returning."

  21. #21
    Regular Member Flintlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Alaska, USA
    Posts
    1,224

    Post imported post

    conwict wrote:
    None. Haven't returned to the mall, either. Will probably re-cc it and say "I thought so; I guess I won't be returning."
    Definitely not!!

    You should write all three of them again and suggest that since you didn't hearback from any of them about their written policy concerning the carriage of self-defense tools, that you would consider that practice to be accepted. I would also cite the relavent local laws to show them and confirm that you are within your rights and tell them that you feel like you were singled out and discriminated against and that youexpect to receive a response at the earliest possible time.
    Peace through superior firepower

    Luke 11:21
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •