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Thread: Response from Gov Kaine about bills SB476 and SB776 - won't admit he's wrong!

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    I received this response today and couldn't believe that he is still spreading the same lies.

    Dear Mr. XXXXXX

    Thank you for contacting the Office of the Governor. I greatly appreciate your input regarding Senate Bill 776, which allows assistant Commonwealth's attorneys to carry concealed weapons without a permit, and Senate Bill 476, which would allow concealed weapons to be carried into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol.

    I vetoed SB 476 because I believe that mixing alcohol and firearms is dangerous. I support the right of law-abiding citizens to own and carry firearms; however, allowing concealed weapons into restaurants and bars that serve alcohol puts the public, restaurant employees, and our public safety officers at risk. Contrary to some inaccurate information that has recently been circulating, SB 776 does not allow assistant Commonwealth's attorneys to carry their concealed weapons in bars. In light of this difference, I saw no reason to oppose this bill.

    It is important to me that every Virginian's voice is heard, and it is very valuable to know the concerns across the Commonwealth. Again, thank you for your input and feel free to contact my office in the future.

    Sincerely,
    Timothy M. Kaine
    Governor]




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    Right - Gov. Kaine, Harvard law grad, is telling tall tales. Under the bill he signed Commonwealth attorneys can, without any permit, carry concealed handguns in restaurants serving alcohol, they can drink alcohol while carrying concealed.

    Further, they are completely exempt from the K-12 school ban, and can carry on school grounds acorss VA, openly, or concealed, as they please.

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    Mike wrote:
    ... and can carry ... as they please.
    That says it all: They can carry as they please.

    You can't get more privileged than that.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I just looked up the revised statute and read it's entirety. There is absolutely no question they can carry in a bar. How would one make it any more clear? --

    [S 776] Approved*snip*
    Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:

    9. Any attorney for the Commonwealth or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth, wherever such attorney may travel in the Commonwealth.


    *section lists all the places can't conceal carry including the restriction as to "restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption" - J1 deals with being intoxicated in public*

    Unless they are actually intoxicated they most definitely can CC any place they want.

    Has Kaine explained the disparity between the obvious reading of their exemption from the law and his apparently dishonest position on the law? Has anyone asked him directly to reconcile the two?
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    Why don't you just copy and enlarge the pertinent sections of the statute, underline the part about being exempted from the restaurant exception, then add your paragraph explaining the meaning of it all.

    If he can't respond approriately to that, then he wins the Hillary Clinton "I dodged sniper bullets" award.

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    OK fellas...allow me to suggest the following:

    Since Gov Kaine believes that passage of SB776 does not allow concealed carry into restaurants that primarily serve food, and some alcohol, how about he promise to pass an identical bill to provide the exact same rights to those with concealed carry permits?

    [S 776] Approved*snip*
    Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:

    9. Any lawful citizen holding a state issued concealed weapon permit, wherever such citizen may travel in the Commonwealth.

    How about that Gov Kaine?

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    Mike's response above is about Commonwealth's Attorneys. But the quote says:

    "Contrary to some inaccurate information that has recently been circulating, SB 776 does not allow assistant Commonwealth's attorneys to carry their concealed weapons in bars."

    Gov. Kaine's letter says nothing about Commonwealths Attorneys what-so-ever. He only mentions assistant CA's.

    Is the Gov. correct about A.C.A.'s? If so, his letter is a bit slippery! He is avoiding talking about what he did, hiding behind thedistinction between A.C.A.'s and CA's. Regardless, two classes of citizens have been created in regards tothe gun rights of Virginians, and that is the problem.




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    Perhaps he needs the Atty. General to explain it to him PERSONALLY, in front of witnesses.

    Off to write a letter!


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    J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

    Two Points (1) The penalty for violation of J1 is revocation of permit and five year ineligibility. However the state attorneys (assistant or otherwise) are granted the ability to carry without a permit. So that is a big nothingburger.

    (2) J3 above seems to support the governor's claim. However, given the wording of the new provision and the rules of statutory construction that later > earlier and specific > general, I think a court would rule that carry in a place mentioned in J3 would be permitted.

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    apjonas wrote:
    J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

    Two Points (1) The penalty for violation of J1 is revocation of permit and five year ineligibility. However the state attorneys (assistant or otherwise) are granted the ability to carry without a permit. So that is a big nothingburger.

    (2) J3 above seems to support the governor's claim. However, given the wording of the new provision and the rules of statutory construction that later > earlier and specific > general, I think a court would rule that carry in a place mentioned in J3 would be permitted.
    The bill adds Com. Attnys and Ass. Com Attnys. to 18.2-308(B), which EXEMPTS them from all of 18.2-308 except for J1.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    apjonas wrote:
    J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

    Two Points (1) The penalty for violation of J1 is revocation of permit and five year ineligibility. However the state attorneys (assistant or otherwise) are granted the ability to carry without a permit. So that is a big nothingburger.

    (2) J3 above seems to support the governor's claim. However, given the wording of the new provision and the rules of statutory construction that later > earlier and specific > general, I think a court would rule that carry in a place mentioned in J3 would be permitted.
    The bill adds Com. Attnys and Ass. Com Attnys. to 18.2-308(B), which EXEMPTS them from all of 18.2-308 except for J1.
    Beat me to it -

    Exmpted party(ies) as I posted above from the bill:

    9. Any attorney for the Commonwealth or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth, wherever such attorney may travel in the Commonwealth.

    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    looks like our governor is a moron, ignant [sic], or a pathalogical liar

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    Where's the media outrage and the sensationlist headlines ....

    "VA lawyers with no safety training legally allowed to swagger out of bars and into elementary schools toting hidden guns on their hips."


    "Never pick a fight with an old spy. If he doesn't feel like fighting he'll just kill you."

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    Pardon the length of this, but this is what I sent our elected idiot: I doubt that he can read and understand this either.

    Dear Governor Kaine,

    I am confused about recent comments you made concerning SB 776 and SB 476. You stated that, “You vetoed SB476 because you believe that mixing alcohol and firearms is dangerous.” You also said that, “You support the right of law-abiding citizens to own and carry firearms; however, allowing concealed weapons into restaurants and bars that serve alcohol puts the public, restaurant employees, and our public safety officers at risk.” You have also replied to a member of opencarry.org that, “Contrary to some inaccurate information that has recently been circulating, SB 776 does not allow assistant Commonwealth's attorneys to carry their concealed weapons in bars.” To the extent that there are no bars in the Commonwealth, your statement is correct. However, it is grossly misleading the public. I refer you to the pertinent parts of SB776:

    B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof. [/b]

    Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:[/b]

    9. Any attorney for the Commonwealth or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth, wherever such attorney may travel in the Commonwealth.[/b][/b]

    [/b]J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.][/b]

    [/b] Now, I am not an attorney, however, I can read and understand the English language fairly well. Any attorney or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth is exempt from the restriction of carrying a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100. (The following are excerpts of the applicable code:

    [/b]"Restaurant" means, for a beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold. [/b]


    "Restaurant" means, for a mixed beverage license other than a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, an established place of business (i) where meals with substantial entrees are regularly sold and (ii) which has adequate facilities and sufficient employees for cooking, preparing, and serving such meals for consumption at tables in dining areas on the premises, and includes establishments specializing in full course meals with a single substantial entree.[/b]

    [/b]"Club" means any private nonprofit corporation or association which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of an establishment operated solely for a national, social, patriotic, political, athletic, or other like purpose, but not for pecuniary gain, the advantages of which belong to all of the members. It also means the establishment so operated. A corporation or association shall not lose its status as a club because of the conduct of charitable gaming conducted pursuant to Article 1.1:1 (§ 18.2-340.15 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 18.2 in which nonmembers participate frequently or in large numbers, provided that no alcoholic beverages are served or consumed in the room where such charitable gaming is being conducted while such gaming is being conducted and that no alcoholic beverages are made available upon the premises to any person who is neither a member nor a bona fide guest of a member. [/b]

    Any such corporation or association which has been declared exempt from federal and state income taxes as one which is not organized and operated for pecuniary gain or profit shall be deemed a nonprofit corporation or association.
    [/b]

    Add to this that nothing is written requiring any attorney or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth to demonstrate competence with a handgun. Now this is what should scare you. The normal everyday citizen who has legally obtained a Concealed Handgun Permit has had to demonstrate competence with a handgun.


    Sir, I await your response.


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    doctork wrote:
    I received this response today and couldn't believe that he is still spreading the same lies.

    Dear Mr. XXXXXX

    Thank you for contacting the Office of the Governor. I greatly appreciate your input regarding Senate Bill 776, which allows assistant Commonwealth's attorneys to carry concealed weapons without a permit, and Senate Bill 476, which would allow concealed weapons to be carried into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol.

    I vetoed SB 476 because I believe that mixing alcohol and firearms is dangerous. I support the right of law-abiding citizens to own and carry firearms; however, allowing concealed weapons into restaurants and bars that serve alcohol puts the public, restaurant employees, and our public safety officers at risk. Contrary to some inaccurate information that has recently been circulating, SB 776 does not allow assistant Commonwealth's attorneys to carry their concealed weapons in bars. In light of this difference, I saw no reason to oppose this bill.

    It is important to me that every Virginian's voice is heard, and it is very valuable to know the concerns across the Commonwealth. Again, thank you for your input and feel free to contact my office in the future.

    Sincerely,
    Timothy M. Kaine
    Governor]

    I hate to tell you this, but I also received this letter after I sent the gov an email. it is the same word for word.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Dear Harvard Law school

    I strongly suggest you consider asking Governor Timothy Kaine, of Virginia, to surrender his Harvard degree.

    It is apparent Mr. Kaine is woefully ignorant of the law you tried to teach him.

    Case in point .....
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    I also sent an e-mail to Kaine complaining and asking about his dual policy for citizens and Commonwealth Attorneys. I also received the identical reply others are receiving and have posted.

    This is obviously an automated response to our questions and complaints about his dual policy. I seriously doubt he has read any of our concerns, comments or complaints.

    I'm looking forward to reading the investigationregarding an LE or CA or ACA involved in a shooting AFTER having consumed alcohol while carrying a concealed firearm in a restaurant or bar.Unless the state and Kaine find a way to keep it out of the press - which we all know will happen.

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    Follow the link and you will see my response to his "Form Letter" he sent everyone....



    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...4&t=302594

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    Well, it seems strange to specifically mention LEO's in J3, if they are already covered in B. I need to take a closer look. So, your opinion would be that your postman can carry concealed (without apermit) in a bar/licensed restaurant while on duty?

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    apjonas wrote:
    Well, it seems strange to specifically mention LEO's in J3, if they are already covered in B. I need to take a closer look. So, your opinion would be that your postman can carry concealed (without apermit) in a bar/licensed restaurant while on duty?
    That is standard practice - restating LEOs being exempt from code the were exempted in somewhere else. K-12 school code is the same (except it doesn't use the word "sworn").

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    apjonas wrote:
    Well, it seems strange to specifically mention LEO's in J3, if they are already covered in B. I need to take a closer look. So, your opinion would be that your postman can carry concealed (without apermit) in a bar/licensed restaurant while on duty?
    Yes - if they are exempt from this section except for J1, then clearly they are exempt from J3 - further, 18.2-308.1 brings 'em in as exempted at k-12 schools. This statute has been amended so many times over the years you neve know what you might find!

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    Based on the latest VCDL alert, I just fired off the following sample letter from the VCDL with the italicized text added!!

    Sir:

    It is grossly unfair that you have signed SB 776 into law! SB 776 allows off-duty, untrained, Commonwealth Attorneys and their deputies to carry a loaded handgun in a K-12 school, yet you have said that you are against concealed handgun permit holders, who do have training,
    from doing the same!

    An off-duty Commonwealth Attorney would not be at a school for any reason different than I would and I don't like being treated like a second-class citizen! Commonwealth attorneys are not carrying their
    gun to enforce the laws, like a police officer. They are solely carrying a gun for self-defense, the same as me.

    If you are comfortable with untrained attorneys carrying in a school, you should support legislation to allow concealed handgun permit holders to do the same.

    This double standard combined with your comments on guns and alcohol not mixing which lead to your veto of SB 476 has me completely confounded. Please, if your response includes the words "this law is being misunderstood" or "contrary to some inaccurate information that has recently been circulating", don't send it at all because because the only inaccurate information is that which you have repeated when questioned about the inconsistencies. It's time you either accept responsibility for signing a law that you didn't fully understand, or provide the reason why you feel such double standards are acceptable.

    Respectfully,
    bayboy42

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    Regular Member vt357's Avatar
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    I usually don't like to use the form letter because I am sure they get tons of those and don't pay that much attention to them. So I wrote to Kaine telling him how I really feel.

    Dear Governor Kaine,

    I would like to know how you can continue to deny your hypocrisy in signing SB 776. You continue to state that commonwealth attorneys CANNOT carry into restaurants that serve alcohol, yet based on the law as signed they CAN! How long will you keep lying to the citizens of Virginia?

    Did you even read the bill before you signed it? There are only three possible reasons for your signing that bill. 1 - You are just a hypocrite and believe in "elite classes" of people that are better than average citizens. 2 - You read the bill, yet despite your Harvard law degree you did not understand it and signed it anyway. 3 - You did not read the bill and relied on the statements of your staffers (who did not understand the bill either) yet signed it anyway.

    I lived in Richmond while you were mayor and did not care much for you then. I can disagree with a person on issues while still respecting them. But I have NO respect for you now. If you will come clean with the public, you will regain my respect even though I disagree with your policies. If you continue to deny what you did until you are red in the face, then you are no better than any other lying politician and should resign.

    Sincerely,
    vt357
    Disappointed Citizen


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    YEAH...WHAT VT357 SAID

  25. #25
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    Maybe Kaine misspoke, Kinda like Hillary did.
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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