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Thread: Subject of Open Carry pondered at CalCCW.com--- Almost.

  1. #1
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    http://www.calccw.com/Forums/experie...rry-rally.html

    Its a concealed carry forum... "concealed means concealed'...anything other than concealed makes you a target.

    The same anti-talk is trotted out and its clear that many of them do not realize that by having the 'piece of paper' has already made them a target-- of a highly regulated privilege, revocable upon demand.

    Many deny the possibility of usingopen carryas a vehicle of change in jurisdictions where issuance is eitherinhibited by great obstaclesor non-existent.

    Factions of this sort, are actually making RTKABA more exclusive, and more an exercise of nobility, than by the common man. The issuance of licenses creates a clique of 'super citizens' who feel empowered by the appearance of trust by authorities in their abilities. What is not acknowledged is that at any time, for any reason, this 'trust' can be regulated into oblivion and revoked upon demand- and they would be no better than any other disarmed peon.

    These are the type that are so content with the privilege bestowed, that they do not recognize the rights that they abdicated in submission.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Well, its a generalization; but I suspect you nailed some percentage of them.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    That was a fun read. Got really funny when Greg got on and :shock:"mine got vas has hoppened to mine CCW forum...oh mine gotmine gotconcealed meanz concealed. Yous vil eat see concreteifin zee copszee yousOpen Carriezers Zee only way is with zee papers zee state permission papers. JBTs aremine friends.





    Good to see a few resonable people over there however.
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    As I've said here many times: I simply refuse to beg some bureaucrat for permission to do something that they have no right to tell me I can't do.

    In fact, I could probably get a permit rather easily. I've had attempts on my life in the past, I have enemies that are known to be violent, and I work in a job handling large sums of cash and valuables.

    It all comes down to this: I refuse to goose step. I would no sooner apply for a "permit to speak freely" than any sort of weapon permit. "Live free or die." Sure, I would be safer if I had their 'papers,' but begging permission just lends legitimacy to their tyranny.

    I guess that's why I've never been to the CalCCW boards... I just wouldn't get along there.


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  5. #5
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Three cheersfor Lonnie!!!! OC Rightsvs CC Permission Slipis the same as Free Men vs Serf.

    Down with 12031!!!!



    His is the last post. They didn't want to talk reason after he posted or the PMs flew fast and thick warning that the OCers were starting to post



    I've already explained this in the Californiaccw.org forum once, however I will explain this again.

    Let's first take the case of Robertson v. Baldwin. In that particular case, which came from the state of California, the Supreme Court declared that "concealed weapons" were not protected by the Second Amendment. The Californians in this forum would do well to remember that open carry as a general rule is the "bearing" arms that is named in the Second Amendment.

    Unfortunately, in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, you have terrible case law which wrote the second amendment out of existence in Hickman v. Block, Silveira v. Lockyer and many other cases, which espouses the collective rights BS.

    Enter District of Columbia v. Heller. At the moment, we don't know what the scope of the ruling from the court would be. We know we have 5 votes for individual rights, but we have no idea how wide ranging the ruling could be. At a minimum, they'll rule the Second Amendment an individual right and uphold the DC Circuit Court of Appeals ruling. They could, because of the various amicus briefs and DC themselves bringing incorporation up several times continuously, also overturn United States v. Cruikshank and Presser v. Illinois and state that the second amendment is an incorporated right. This is less likely given Chief Justice Robert's beliefs, however again, it depends on what the minimum of 5 justices state decide to be.

    If the second amendment is ruled an individual right, all second amendment case law will be completely GONE from the 9th Circuit, and has to start all over from scratch. If SCOTUS does not address incorporation, then the state of California's only defense against this will lie in US v. Cruikshank, which is regarded as one of the most racist Supreme Court decisions in US History. The 9th Circuit, being a court known for it's embrace of the 14th amendment more so than usual, may actually choke on it and realize that it's indefensible.

    Particularly vulnerable is PC12031, the "loaded firearm carry" ban, which functions as a complete ban on self defense carry in any incorporated area in a loaded fashion, and since CCW's are discretionary....

    The point being is that if California has ANY hope of going shall issue in it's CCW laws, then it lies in the open carry movement. Some form of bearing arms must be allowable and either unregulated or at least issued shall-issue with a minimum of fuss.

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    Hate to see my face in CalCCW... ick.

    At least our news video is stirring the pot.

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    There are a lot of good people over there. Every once in a while it is good to see them exposed to things ourside their comfort zone.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    CalCCW03

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    Welcome aboard.

    Remember, this is a CCW forum; we try not to get into discussions of open carry. Anything related to CCW is welcome.
    __________________

    Damn guys, this is an open carry forum. We better not discuss concealed carry anymore . What an elitist ass.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Well said

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    CalCCW03

    FM & CalCCW Staff




    Join Date: Mar 2007
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    Welcome aboard.

    Remember, this is a CCW forum; we try not to get into discussions of open carry. Anything related to CCW is welcome.
    __________________

    Damn guys, this is an open carry forum. We better not discuss concealed carry anymore . What an elitist ass.
    Well, their forum, their rules. You can go there and gently push the envelop to expand their horizons. Or treat it like a GFZ and don't give them your time or money. I'd lean towards the slow education option myself, it's the only way they'll learn.

  11. #11
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    http://www.calccw.com/Forums/experie...html#post52154



    Lonnie goes backin for the knock out punch. Three more cheers and a tiger!


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CalCCW03
    Welcome aboard. Remember, this is a CCW forum; we try not to get into discussions of open carry. Anything related to CCW is welcome.
    Quote Lonnie:

    This is related to concealed carry. I'm a concealed carrier myself. I have licenses in several states, and I'm able to carry in every state in the West with the exception of California. Some of my closest friends live in California, specifically the bay area where they live in the "Red Counties" where they cannot get licenses to carry concealed because they aren't contributors to the local sheriff's campaign.

    It's also been a source of disappointment. Sacramento County Sheriff McGinness, despite stating that he would more freely issue permits than Lou Blanas, broke his word and actually started revoking licenses. He certainly made the process more "fair", by revoking the crony CCW's. Now no one has a chance to get a license there for self defense reasons, since "equal protection" doesn't give you good cause. This is one of the reasons why I'm not too sure if the "TBJ" Method will actually work. I can hope so, and the Santa Maria case will be their testbed.

    The California open carry movement, from what I can see, is born out of the frustration of the current concealed carry licensing situation. I've seen several times the suggestion for one to move to a different county to get a better chance. For example, someone who works in central Los Angeles County, in order to be able to get a license fairly, would have to move to Orange County, and in the process, increase their commute and cost them more in gas that costs $3.80 a gallon. Is that fair to ask someone to do that?

    You can pretend all you want that this has nothing to do with concealed carry. What this is about is that for the persons who discover that they can get the license in California, but they have to move 100 miles to do so and uproot themselves and their families? Guaranteed if they have to uproot, they'll move to Oregon and Arizona, and then what? They can't help you guys at all.

    Do you want shall-issue CCW to happen in California? It won't come from begging the Legislature to do so or begging your Sheriff to issue for self defense. Don't get so wrapped up in the privilege that some of you have and think it'll never get revoked. It can happen, it DOES happen. Read what I said before: Open carry is a right, concealed carry is a privilege, and California infringes on it with PC12031.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    cato wrote:
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CalCCW03
    Welcome aboard. Remember, this is a CCW forum; we try not to get into discussions of open carry. Anything related to CCW is welcome.
    LOLZ.... Here, lemme connect the dots for you...

    Lonnie is a class act, but he's probably on his way to the land of the banned at CalCCWDC. They wont tolerate such talk as "it is contrary to their policy on concealed weapons" or verbiage of that sort.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    He's direct to the point but morediplomaticthen you were:P. The thread is still open which shocked me but then again maybe they've turned a page in their book for the bettertoo? We can only hope as we all need each other in this fight.

  14. #14
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    http://www.calccw.com/Forums/general...-carry-ca.html

    Its funny, but in spite of the repeated reminders that CalCCW is a concealed carry forum, the topic of open carrycontinues to spark commentary both supportive and derisive. I wonder just how far the admin is willing to go to put a lid on the exchange of ideas...

    What is becoming increasingly more evident is the fact that real momentum is beginning to be seen. I cant imagine what purpose prohibiting discussion of open carry will serve, should this turn a corner in participation and support. Sure, there is speculation that this will be damaging to the 2A in California- but what does that really mean when the right is curtailed as it is here in the Golden State?

    We've been a frogs hair away fromfascistic restrictionsfor some time- I believe many only have guns that only come out of the safe to go hunting, or admire for breif moments in the privacy of their home... So what difference does it make if open carry activism does slam the door on ownership? The average person cannot use them... on the one hand it isdue toself-imposed restrictions set by those who believe they cant,.. on the otherit would berestrictions imposed upon us by the State. In either event, we have not moved from the place where we have found ourselves.

    The only alternative to not moving is to taking steps into a new direction.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

  15. #15
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    ConditionThree wrote:
    ...Sure, there is speculation that this will be damaging to the 2A in California- but what does that really mean when the right is curtailed as it is here in the Golden State?
    ...
    I still don't buy this argument. There is simply no evidence to support the assertion. We know this... but many people still spew this ******** and call it fact.

    This is one of our greatest obstacles: changing the hearts/minds of fellow gun rights advocates. ...As unbelievable as that sounds saying it out loud...
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
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  16. #16
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    ConditionThree wrote:
    ...Sure, there is speculation that this will be damaging to the 2A in California- but what does that really mean when the right is curtailed as it is here in the Golden State?
    ...
    I still don't buy this argument. There is simply no evidence to support the assertion. We know this... but many people still spew this ******** and call it fact.

    This is one of our greatest obstacles: changing the hearts/minds of fellow gun rights advocates. ...As unbelievable as that sounds saying it out loud...
    I agree... even in the thread on CalGuns that is referenced, there is a gun owner admitting that he'd call the police to report average people openly carrying. And in my own police encounter, I suspect it was someone who was a gun owner or enthusiast making the call to 911. They simply dont understand that what happens to one gun owner, happens to all of us.

    You touched on something that must be made a part of our objective- but Im not certain how to dispell the pro-gun/anti-carry dichotomy, other than to continue demonstrating that OC really isnt tht big a deal.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Those threads are always so silly. Everyone seems to agree that OC makes you a target, which is ridiculous. Obviously, deterrence is a much more likely result.

    They go on about the "tactical advantage," but none of them stop to consider that OC provides an inherent accessibility advantage. A criminal (who, no doubt, would have his weapon concealed) would be a fool to try to outdraw (and then outshoot) a person with an OC weapon. Criminals tend to be stupid, but few people are that dumb.

    They fail to acknowledge that their "tactical advantage" actually forces them to resort to the gun and hope they needn't discharge it, where OC has the potential to halt crime in a much more "civilized" manner: before it even starts, even before a confrontation has ensued.

    They behave like the criminals our detractors would portray them as by concealing their behavior from the public's eye (out of misguided fears of negative reactions), rather than exercising their legal rights in plain view for all to see.

    They implicitly acknowledge the legality of their government's (illegal) attempts at gun regulation by obtaining permission from their government to CC, even where no permission is required for OC.

    In short, I have no time for those people. They, in their complacence, are the enemy of freedom just as surely as those misguided souls who seek safety through regulation.

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