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Thread: LE Encounter in the Corner District @ UVA

  1. #1
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    Had a great expierence followed closely by a not so great one.

    So tonight I go downtown for a going away party for a coworker of my fathers. I meet up with them at Orbits Billards (asked not to carry there once a year or so ago, they were real nice about it, so I didn't carry there, I just don't go to go there much.), drink water, have a good time but now the stomach starts to rumble, and I'm not looking to eat bar food. So I decide to to to Little Johns Deli about 400 yard up the road.

    I return to my truck, and have to open carry because Little Johns sells beer. I know that the staff don't care about people carrying there, I've been there dozens of times with no problems, owner actually seems to like it. At this point the deli is starting to fill up, mostly intoxicated students, they are being loud, and it's hot in there, so I decide to eat outside on a bench. I get my sandwich, grab a paper, and procede outside.

    I hadn't finished my sandwich for 10 min, when I was sitting there reading my paper, when I see bright yellow lights behind me, I turn around and see a Charlottesville Police cruiser parked in the road, with the arrow stick on the back guiding cars around him. He walk up to me and lean over on my right and very polietly asks me "Any reason you are packing a gun on the corner tonight?" to which I replied "Self protection, I am legally open carrying on public property.". The officer had no problem at all with this, told me to have a good night, and left. Total interaction lasted 3 minutes tops.

    I was so impressed by his professionalism and polietness that I call the police and ask to have a Sergeant call me back so I can compliment the officer. About 15 minutes later the sgt calls me back, and I explain to him what happened how pleased I am with the officers conduct, and this is where it turns south. The sgt tells me that he'll make sure that the officers conduct is noted and is passed along, then he asks me if I have a CCW, and I tell him yes. he then tell me that it would be better for me and them if I would just carry concealed everywhere I go, that open carrying is to dangerous and causes them an increased work load. I told him that I may have CC if I was allowed to do so in an ABC establishment (thats all there is on the corner), but I am forced to open carry, to which his reply was "well maybe you should eat in another part of town or not carry at all." I told him that I wanted to call and compliment and officer, and that was it, I didn't want a lecture. You could hear in his voice, a very condicending tone, and disbelief that I was calling to compliement an officer over this, I ws very happy after the interaction with the officer, and was getting angry talking with the sgt, so I ended the conversation nicely and hung up.

    All in all, a great encounter by a patrol officer, bad encounter with a Sgt. The area has been real jumpy the last 2 day, some looney toon stood on the I64 over pass shooting cars, and my co-workers thought I was crazy for open carrying, but I had no problems.

    This goes to show that not all Patrol officers are evil.

    Edited to add paragraphs, HAPPY NOW? lol

  2. #2
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    muzz3256 wrote:
    Had a great expierence followed closely by a not so great one.

    So tonight I go downtown for a going away party for a coworker of my fathers. I meet up with them at Orbits Billards (asked not to carry there once a year or so ago, they were real nice about it, so I didn't carry there, I just don't go to go there much.), drink water, have a good time but now the stomach starts to rumble, and I'm not looking to eat bar food. So I decide to to to Little Johns Deli about 400 yard up the road. I return to my truck, and have to open carry because Little Johns sells beer. I know that the staff don't care about people carrying there, I've been there dozens of times with no problems, owner actually seems to like it. At this point the deli is starting to fill up, mostly intoxicated students, they are being loud, and it's hot in there, so I decide to eat outside on a bench. I get my sandwich, grab a paper, and procede outside. I hadn't finished my sandwich for 10 min, when I was sitting there reading my paper, when I see bright yellow lights behind me, I turn around and see a Charlottesville Police cruiser parked in the road, with the arrow stick on the back guiding cars around him. He walk up to me and lean over on my right and very polietly asks me "Any reason you are packing a gun on the corner tonight?" to which I replied "Self protection, I am legally open carrying on public property.". The officer had no problem at all with this, told me to have a good night, and left. Total interaction lasted 3 minutes tops. I was so impressed by his professionalism and polietness that I call the police and ask to have a Sergeant call me back so I can compliment the officer. About 15 minutes later the sgt calls me back, and I explain to him what happened how pleased I am with the officers conduct, and this is where it turns south. The sgt tells me that he'll make sure that the officers conduct is noted and is passed along, then he asks me if I have a CCW, and I tell him yes. he then tell me that it would be better for me and them if I would just carry concealed everywhere I go, that open carrying is to dangerous and causes them an increased work load. I told him that I may have CC if I was allowed to do so in an ABC establishment (thats all there is on the corner), but I am forced to open carry, to which his reply was "well maybe you should eat in another part of town or not carry at all." I told him that I wanted to call and compliment and officer, and that was it, I didn't want a lecture. You could hear in his voice, a very condicending tone, and disbelief that I was calling to compliement an officer over this, I ws very happy after the interaction with the officer, and was getting angry talking with the sgt, so I ended the conversation nicely and hung up.

    All in all, a great encounter by a patrol officer, bad encounter with a Sgt. The area has been real jumpy the last 2 day, some looney toon stood on the I64 over pass shooting cars, and my co-workers thought I was crazy for open carrying, but I had no problems.

    This goes to show that not all Patrol officers are evil.
    It was a good interaction. You also learned something about the Darwin theory (changed somewhat)

    Most officers are brain dead until they have been on the job for at least a year. (Kiddie Kops)

    The bad ones get weeded out during this time and go to work in Norfolk.

    The ones that stay, hopefully become professionals such as the one you met.
    Then...they start getting RANK. The higher the Rank, the more brain cells die. At the Chief level, they are once again...BRAIN DEAD!

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    peter nap wrote:
    muzz3256 wrote:
    Had a great expierence followed closely by a not so great one.

    So tonight I go downtown for a going away party for a coworker of my fathers. I meet up with them at Orbits Billards (asked not to carry there once a year or so ago, they were real nice about it, so I didn't carry there, I just don't go to go there much.), drink water, have a good time but now the stomach starts to rumble, and I'm not looking to eat bar food. So I decide to to to Little Johns Deli about 400 yard up the road. I return to my truck, and have to open carry because Little Johns sells beer. I know that the staff don't care about people carrying there, I've been there dozens of times with no problems, owner actually seems to like it. At this point the deli is starting to fill up, mostly intoxicated students, they are being loud, and it's hot in there, so I decide to eat outside on a bench. I get my sandwich, grab a paper, and procede outside. I hadn't finished my sandwich for 10 min, when I was sitting there reading my paper, when I see bright yellow lights behind me, I turn around and see a Charlottesville Police cruiser parked in the road, with the arrow stick on the back guiding cars around him. He walk up to me and lean over on my right and very polietly asks me "Any reason you are packing a gun on the corner tonight?" to which I replied "Self protection, I am legally open carrying on public property.". The officer had no problem at all with this, told me to have a good night, and left. Total interaction lasted 3 minutes tops. I was so impressed by his professionalism and polietness that I call the police and ask to have a Sergeant call me back so I can compliment the officer. About 15 minutes later the sgt calls me back, and I explain to him what happened how pleased I am with the officers conduct, and this is where it turns south. The sgt tells me that he'll make sure that the officers conduct is noted and is passed along, then he asks me if I have a CCW, and I tell him yes. he then tell me that it would be better for me and them if I would just carry concealed everywhere I go, that open carrying is to dangerous and causes them an increased work load. I told him that I may have CC if I was allowed to do so in an ABC establishment (thats all there is on the corner), but I am forced to open carry, to which his reply was "well maybe you should eat in another part of town or not carry at all." I told him that I wanted to call and compliment and officer, and that was it, I didn't want a lecture. You could hear in his voice, a very condicending tone, and disbelief that I was calling to compliement an officer over this, I ws very happy after the interaction with the officer, and was getting angry talking with the sgt, so I ended the conversation nicely and hung up.

    All in all, a great encounter by a patrol officer, bad encounter with a Sgt. The area has been real jumpy the last 2 day, some looney toon stood on the I64 over pass shooting cars, and my co-workers thought I was crazy for open carrying, but I had no problems.

    This goes to show that not all Patrol officers are evil.
    It was a good interaction. You also learned something about the Darwin theory (changed somewhat)

    Most officers are brain dead until they have been on the job for at least a year. (Kiddie Kops)

    The bad ones get weeded out during this time and go to work in Norfolk.

    The ones that stay, hopefully become professionals such as the one you met.
    Then...they start getting RANK. The higher the Rank, the more brain cells die. At the Chief level, they are once again...BRAIN DEAD!
    Well said.:celebrate

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    May I suggest a few things?

    First, let me say you did nothing wrong. We each have to make our own judgement calls during any police encounters.

    The patrol officer sounded professional, but wasn't as professional as he could have been. There is no 4th Amendment prohibition against him asking you a polite question or two. Nonetheless, he could have just observed you from a distance and left you alone when he saw you were doing nothing.

    The true test of his professionalism would have come if you had politely refused consent to the encounter. And politely refused to answer his questions. Then you would get to see how professional he reallyis. Does he get pushy? Does he imply that you must be up to something since you're refusing to cooperate?Realize you are doing nothingillegal. Nor are you doing anything that can give rise to legitimate reasonable suspicion.

    The shootings on I64 contribute nothing to suspicion. Just because you have a gun does not even come close to identifying you with the shootings, there being tens of thousands of people in the area. And probably a few thousand firearms. If you were within range of I64, say sitting on a hill right beside the interstate, that would be different. But that wasn't the case. The only way you can be connected to the shootings is by someone operating on emotional reaction,the polar opposite of rational thought. And something clearly excludedby "articulable facts."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    May I suggest a few things?

    First, let me say you did nothing wrong. We each have to make our own judgement calls during any police encounters.

    The patrol officer sounded professional, but wasn't as professional as he could have been. There is no 4th Amendment prohibition against him asking you a polite question or two. Nonetheless, he could have just observed you from a distance and left you alone when he saw you were doing nothing.

    The true test of his professionalism would have come if you had politely refused consent to the encounter. And politely refused to answer his questions. Then you would get to see how professional he reallyis. Does he get pushy? Does he imply that you must be up to something since you're refusing to cooperate?Realize you are doing nothingillegal. Nor are you doing anything that can give rise to legitimate reasonable suspicion.

    The shootings on I64 contribute nothing to suspicion. Just because you have a gun does not even come close to identifying you with the shootings, there being tens of thousands of people in the area. And probably a few thousand firearms. If you were within range of I64, say sitting on a hill right beside the interstate, that would be different. But that wasn't the case. The only way you can be connected to the shootings is by someone operating on emotional reaction,the polar opposite of rational thought. And something clearly excludedby "articulable facts."
    I already made up in my mind that I was not going to consent to anything, no ID, no nothing, but he didn't even seem interested in having to talk to me in the first place, just asked me the question, talked on the radio, said havea good night, and left, didn't even give me a chance.

    I was happy with the officer, not so much with the sgt.

  6. #6
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    muzz3256 wrote:
    I already made up in my mind that I was not going to consent to anything, no ID, no nothing, but he didn't even seem interested in having to talk to me in the first place, just asked me the question, talked on the radio, said havea good night, and left, didn't even give me a chance.

    I was happy with the officer, not so much with the sgt.
    I hear you.

    If you have time (for a possibly prolonged encounter) and inclination, the next time you canrefuse consent to the encounter itself. And refuse to answer even the first question.

    Did you have a chance to activate your voice-recorder?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  7. #7
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    Citizen wrote:
    muzz3256 wrote:
    I already made up in my mind that I was not going to consent to anything, no ID, no nothing, but he didn't even seem interested in having to talk to me in the first place, just asked me the question, talked on the radio, said havea good night, and left, didn't even give me a chance.

    I was happy with the officer, not so much with the sgt.
    I hear you.

    If you have time (for a possibly prolonged encounter) and inclination, the next time you canrefuse consent to the encounter itself. And refuse to answer even the first question.

    Did you have a chance to activate your voice-recorder?
    No, I forgot to grab the voice recorder out of the truck. Next time though.

  8. #8
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    paragraph= A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    paragraph= A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences.
    Fine commentary from someone who never writes more than two sentences in a post. :P
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    VAopencarry wrote:
    paragraph= A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences.
    Fine commentary from someone who never writes more than two sentences in a post. :P
    amazin wee Gyrenes can even rite at all!

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    muzz3256 wrote:
    No, I forgot to grab the voice recorder out of the truck. Next time though.

    I understand. Its so unconnected to the firearm that it isn't a natural part of putting on the firearm, like say, the mag pouch.

    Try makingit a deliberate part of your arming sequence. Maybe step number one. It works for me.

    Given the Sgt.'s attitude, you may be in for some more police encounters, perhaps less pleasant.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    amazin wee Gyrenes can even rite at all!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
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    muzz3256 wrote:
    Had a great expierence followed closely by a not so great one.

    So tonight I go downtown for a going away party for a coworker of my fathers. I meet up with them at Orbits Billards (asked not to carry there once a year or so ago, they were real nice about it, so I didn't carry there, I just don't go to go there much.), drink water, have a good time but now the stomach starts to rumble, and I'm not looking to eat bar food. So I decide to to to Little Johns Deli about 400 yard up the road. I return to my truck, and have to open carry because Little Johns sells beer. I know that the staff don't care about people carrying there, I've been there dozens of times with no problems, owner actually seems to like it. At this point the deli is starting to fill up, mostly intoxicated students, they are being loud, and it's hot in there, so I decide to eat outside on a bench. I get my sandwich, grab a paper, and procede outside. I hadn't finished my sandwich for 10 min, when I was sitting there reading my paper, when I see bright yellow lights behind me, I turn around and see a Charlottesville Police cruiser parked in the road, with the arrow stick on the back guiding cars around him. He walk up to me and lean over on my right and very polietly asks me "Any reason you are packing a gun on the corner tonight?" to which I replied "Self protection, I am legally open carrying on public property.". The officer had no problem at all with this, told me to have a good night, and left. Total interaction lasted 3 minutes tops. I was so impressed by his professionalism and polietness that I call the police and ask to have a Sergeant call me back so I can compliment the officer. About 15 minutes later the sgt calls me back, and I explain to him what happened how pleased I am with the officers conduct, and this is where it turns south. The sgt tells me that he'll make sure that the officers conduct is noted and is passed along, then he asks me if I have a CCW, and I tell him yes. he then tell me that it would be better for me and them if I would just carry concealed everywhere I go, that open carrying is to dangerous and causes them an increased work load. I told him that I may have CC if I was allowed to do so in an ABC establishment (thats all there is on the corner), but I am forced to open carry, to which his reply was "well maybe you should eat in another part of town or not carry at all." I told him that I wanted to call and compliment and officer, and that was it, I didn't want a lecture. You could hear in his voice, a very condicending tone, and disbelief that I was calling to compliement an officer over this, I ws very happy after the interaction with the officer, and was getting angry talking with the sgt, so I ended the conversation nicely and hung up.

    All in all, a great encounter by a patrol officer, bad encounter with a Sgt. The area has been real jumpy the last 2 day, some looney toon stood on the I64 over pass shooting cars, and my co-workers thought I was crazy for open carrying, but I had no problems.

    This goes to show that not all Patrol officers are evil.
    "Any reason you are packing a gun on the corner tonight?"

    I don't see anything wrong with the officer asking you this and left you alone. This is a question I would even expect a "civilian" to ask me to.

    Citizen...why would you even "Escalate" a perfectly fine situation by "politely refused consent to the encounter."

    That to me would have ABSOLUTELY escalated the situation. I believe there was 100% courtsey and respect on both sides. + remember that an Officer is a GENERAL AUXILIARY DETERENT, meaning a Public Servant.

    muzz3256was in the Public, and as a servant of the PUBLIC (and not for the individual), the Officer just asked a simple question and it was simply over. No need to "ruffle the feathers".

    Just my .40

    TJ

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    muzz3256 wrote:
    Had a great expierence followed closely by a not so great one.

    So tonight I go downtown for a going away party for a coworker of my fathers. I meet up with them at Orbits Billards (asked not to carry there once a year or so ago, they were real nice about it, so I didn't carry there, I just don't go to go there much.), drink water, have a good time but now the stomach starts to rumble, and I'm not looking to eat bar food. So I decide to to to Little Johns Deli about 400 yard up the road. I return to my truck, and have to open carry because Little Johns sells beer. I know that the staff don't care about people carrying there, I've been there dozens of times with no problems, owner actually seems to like it. At this point the deli is starting to fill up, mostly intoxicated students, they are being loud, and it's hot in there, so I decide to eat outside on a bench. I get my sandwich, grab a paper, and procede outside. I hadn't finished my sandwich for 10 min, when I was sitting there reading my paper, when I see bright yellow lights behind me, I turn around and see a Charlottesville Police cruiser parked in the road, with the arrow stick on the back guiding cars around him. He walk up to me and lean over on my right and very polietly asks me "Any reason you are packing a gun on the corner tonight?" to which I replied "Self protection, I am legally open carrying on public property.". The officer had no problem at all with this, told me to have a good night, and left. Total interaction lasted 3 minutes tops. I was so impressed by his professionalism and polietness that I call the police and ask to have a Sergeant call me back so I can compliment the officer. About 15 minutes later the sgt calls me back, and I explain to him what happened how pleased I am with the officers conduct, and this is where it turns south. The sgt tells me that he'll make sure that the officers conduct is noted and is passed along, then he asks me if I have a CCW, and I tell him yes. he then tell me that it would be better for me and them if I would just carry concealed everywhere I go, that open carrying is to dangerous and causes them an increased work load. I told him that I may have CC if I was allowed to do so in an ABC establishment (thats all there is on the corner), but I am forced to open carry, to which his reply was "well maybe you should eat in another part of town or not carry at all." I told him that I wanted to call and compliment and officer, and that was it, I didn't want a lecture. You could hear in his voice, a very condicending tone, and disbelief that I was calling to compliement an officer over this, I ws very happy after the interaction with the officer, and was getting angry talking with the sgt, so I ended the conversation nicely and hung up.

    All in all, a great encounter by a patrol officer, bad encounter with a Sgt. The area has been real jumpy the last 2 day, some looney toon stood on the I64 over pass shooting cars, and my co-workers thought I was crazy for open carrying, but I had no problems.

    This goes to show that not all Patrol officers are evil.
    "Any reason you are packing a gun on the corner tonight?"

    I don't see anything wrong with the officer asking you this and left you alone. This is a question I would even expect a "civilian" to ask me to.

    Citizen...why would you even "Escalate" a perfectly fine situation by "politely refused consent to the encounter."

    That to me would have ABSOLUTELY escalate the situation. I believe there was 100% courtsey and respect on both sides. + remember that an Officer is a GENERAL AUXILIARY DETERENT, meaning a Public Servant.

    muzz3256was in the Public, and as a servant of the PUBLIC (and not for the individual), the Officer just asked a simple and it was simply over. No need to "ruffle the feathers".

    Just my .49

    TJ

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    muzz3256 wrote:
    SNIP
    "Any reason you are packing a gun on the corner tonight?"

    I don't see anything wrong with the officer asking you this and left you alone. This is a question I would even expect a "civilian" to ask me to.

    Citizen...why would you even "Escalate" a perfectly fine situation by "politely refused consent to the encounter."

    That to me would have ABSOLUTELY escalate the situation. I believe there was 100% courtsey and respect on both sides. + remember that an Officer is a GENERAL AUXILIARY DETERENT, meaning a Public Servant.

    muzz3256was in the Public, and as a servant of the PUBLIC (and not for the individual), the Officer just asked a simple question and it was simply over. No need to "ruffle the feathers".

    Just my .49

    TJ
    I agree. As I have said before, just as we have certain God given rights, we have the right to choose how to exercise those rights as well. Muzz3256 chose to answer the question and that was that. If a non-LEO citizen would have asked the same question, as the numerous threads on the issue attest to the fact that they do, his answer would have been just as appropriate. Polite question, polite answer, interaction is over.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Citizen wrote:
    muzz3256 wrote:
    I already made up in my mind that I was not going to consent to anything, no ID, no nothing, but he didn't even seem interested in having to talk to me in the first place, just asked me the question, talked on the radio, said havea good night, and left, didn't even give me a chance.

    I was happy with the officer, not so much with the sgt.
    I hear you.

    If you have time (for a possibly prolonged encounter) and inclination, the next time you canrefuse consent to the encounter itself. And refuse to answer even the first question.

    Did you have a chance to activate your voice-recorder?
    Why would you want to encourage that? I understand that you would be will within your rights to not consent to the search, but why even try to dodge the questions? It just makes his and your life hard. Maybe THIS is the reason some of the boys in blue don't like dealing with the law abiding gun owners. One would think that you would want to cooperate with the police. I was raised to understand that you respect them and answer any questions they have within reason; and this can be debated to death - what is reasonable? Maybe I am one of the few raised that way...?

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    xd.40 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    muzz3256 wrote:
    I already made up in my mind that I was not going to consent to anything, no ID, no nothing, but he didn't even seem interested in having to talk to me in the first place, just asked me the question, talked on the radio, said havea good night, and left, didn't even give me a chance.

    I was happy with the officer, not so much with the sgt.
    I hear you.

    If you have time (for a possibly prolonged encounter) and inclination, the next time you canrefuse consent to the encounter itself. And refuse to answer even the first question.

    Did you have a chance to activate your voice-recorder?
    Why would you want to encourage that? I understand that you would be will within your rights to not consent to the search, but why even try to dodge the questions? It just makes his and your life hard. Maybe THIS is the reason some of the boys in blue don't like dealing with the law abiding gun owners. One would think that you would want to cooperate with the police. I was raised to understand that you respect them and answer any questions they have within reason; and this can be debated to death - what is reasonable? Maybe I am one of the few raised that way...?
    Agree 100%

    TJ

  18. #18
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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    Citizen...why would you even "Escalate" a perfectly fine situation by "politely refused consent to the encounter."

    A number of reasons. These aren't meant to be argumentative. I'm nottrying to change your view, nor seeking agreement. Just giving you my reasoning. Take it for what its worth.

    Read it all the way through before deciding to comment. The actual datum upon which it all turns for the OP's encounter is near the bottom.

    Constitutional rights are under assault in this wonderfulcountry. I'm not now talking only about 2A.

    Not enough people are doing something about it.

    I can do something about it. Right where the rubber meets the road. Right where manypeople interact with government--police encounters.

    One of my biggest reasons for OC is exercising my First Amendment free speech right toexpand support andreduce counter-opinion of the2ndAmendment. (If burning the American flag is protected speech,openly carrying a gun in a peaceable manner had goddam betternot be a problem.)

    Policehave been and still can beacounter-effortagainst my OC. This is more than just an average counter effort. They are actual agents of government. Because of the circumstances surrounding their agency, they require more than common knowledge and more effort to push back against.

    Ihave first hand experience with twopolice encounters where police twisted orpushed on my rights because of my lawfully carried handgun.

    Ihave first hand experience with police lying to protectthemselves, and to protect their fellow officers.

    I've first hand experience with policedepartments not doing much officially to take responsibility for theerrors of their officers.

    My first hand experiences give me total certainty that too many policehave an unacceptable level of professionalism.

    Good police oweus thanks for helpingidentify thequestionable ones. We're helping them police their own ranks.

    Police, like anybody else, like to push the line. Eventually the line gets moved and the new locationbecomes accepted. Demanding full observance of the finest points of2nd and 4th Amendment rights draws the line farther from the goal I'm defending. I'd rather they try to move it from 4th and 15.

    In the OP, theofficer is the one escalating. The officer is entirelyable to observe from a distance to first decide if he really does needtobother the citizen. Instead he decides to escalate from mere observation to contact. Certainly we ascitizen's don't owe it to him or society togrant him a convenience pass, letting himfirstcontact usto avoid the inconvenience of standing there andobserving at length for signsgiving rise toreasonable suspicion.A lawfully carried handgun is not alone reasonable suspicion.

    If hefully respected both the 2nd Amendment and the citizen's quietenjoyment of the newspaper and the evening, he would not have inserted himself into it for so little reason.In the OP, the poster was being investigated. It wasn't a public relations chat. Neither was it a "Hey, cool, what are you carrying?" It was an investigation. Absent something else, that cop justproved he thinksthat a lawfully OC'd firearm is suspicious.Wrong attitude. Unacceptable attitude.

    Now, having decided that it is an unacceptable attitude, I'm going to do something about it.

    I urgeeveryoneelse to do so also. Set the standard high, and you'll get higher standards.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
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    Citizen, you know that I respect your approach but I don't agree with it. If you feel good about it, keep on doing it I guess. I like the "peaceable" approach myself. But that's just me.

    TJ

  20. #20
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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    SNIP I like the "peaceable" approach myself. But that's just me.
    I do, too. I'd much prefer that.

    I've found it very effective at keeping the peace.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
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    xd.40 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    muzz3256 wrote:
    I already made up in my mind that I was not going to consent to anything, no ID, no nothing, but he didn't even seem interested in having to talk to me in the first place, just asked me the question, talked on the radio, said havea good night, and left, didn't even give me a chance.

    I was happy with the officer, not so much with the sgt.
    I hear you.

    If you have time (for a possibly prolonged encounter) and inclination, the next time you canrefuse consent to the encounter itself. And refuse to answer even the first question.

    Did you have a chance to activate your voice-recorder?
    Why would you want to encourage that? I understand that you would be will within your rights to not consent to the search, but why even try to dodge the questions? It just makes his and your life hard. Maybe THIS is the reason some of the boys in blue don't like dealing with the law abiding gun owners. One would think that you would want to cooperate with the police. I was raised to understand that you respect them and answer any questions they have within reason; and this can be debated to death - what is reasonable? Maybe I am one of the few raised that way...?

  22. #22
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    Citizen wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    Citizen...why would you even "Escalate" a perfectly fine situation by "politely refused consent to the encounter."

    A number of reasons. These aren't meant to be argumentative. I'm nottrying to change your view, nor seeking agreement. Just giving you my reasoning. Take it for what its worth.

    Read it all the way through before deciding to comment. The actual datum upon which it all turns for the OP's encounter is near the bottom.

    Constitutional rights are under assault in this wonderfulcountry. I'm not now talking only about 2A.

    Not enough people are doing something about it.

    I can do something about it. Right where the rubber meets the road. Right where manypeople interact with government--police encounters.

    One of my biggest reasons for OC is exercising my First Amendment free speech right toexpand support andreduce counter-opinion of the2ndAmendment. (If burning the American flag is protected speech,openly carrying a gun in a peaceable manner had goddam betternot be a problem.)

    Policehave been and still can beacounter-effortagainst my OC. This is more than just an average counter effort. They are actual agents of government. Because of the circumstances surrounding their agency, they require more than common knowledge and more effort to push back against.

    Ihave first hand experience with twopolice encounters where police twisted orpushed on my rights because of my lawfully carried handgun.

    Ihave first hand experience with police lying to protectthemselves, and to protect their fellow officers.

    I've first hand experience with policedepartments not doing much officially to take responsibility for theerrors of their officers.

    My first hand experiences give me total certainty that too many policehave an unacceptable level of professionalism.

    Good police oweus thanks for helpingidentify thequestionable ones. We're helping them police their own ranks.

    Police, like anybody else, like to push the line. Eventually the line gets moved and the new locationbecomes accepted. Demanding full observance of the finest points of2nd and 4th Amendment rights draws the line farther from the goal I'm defending. I'd rather they try to move it from 4th and 15.

    In the OP, theofficer is the one escalating. The officer is entirelyable to observe from a distance to first decide if he really does needtobother the citizen. Instead he decides to escalate from mere observation to contact. Certainly we ascitizen's don't owe it to him or society togrant him a convenience pass, letting himfirstcontact usto avoid the inconvenience of standing there andobserving at length for signsgiving rise toreasonable suspicion.A lawfully carried handgun is not alone reasonable suspicion.

    If hefully respected both the 2nd Amendment and the citizen's quietenjoyment of the newspaper and the evening, he would not have inserted himself into it for so little reason.In the OP, the poster was being investigated. It wasn't a public relations chat. Neither was it a "Hey, cool, what are you carrying?" It was an investigation. Absent something else, that cop justproved he thinksthat a lawfully OC'd firearm is suspicious.Wrong attitude. Unacceptable attitude.

    Now, having decided that it is an unacceptable attitude, I'm going to do something about it.

    I urgeeveryoneelse to do so also. Set the standard high, and you'll get higher standards.

  23. #23
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    Citizen wrote:
    A number of reasons. These aren't meant to be argumentative. I'm nottrying to change your view, nor seeking agreement. Just giving you my reasoning. Take it for what its worth.

    <snip>

    1. Constitutional rights are under assault in this wonderfulcountry. I'm not now talking only about 2A.

    <snip>

    2. One of my biggest reasons for OC is exercising my First Amendment free speech right toexpand support andreduce counter-opinion of the2ndAmendment. (If burning the American flag is protected speech,openly carrying a gun in a peaceable manner had goddam betternot be a problem.)

    <snip>

    3. Police, like anybody else, like to push the line. Eventually the line gets moved and the new locationbecomes accepted. Demanding full observance of the finest points of2nd and 4th Amendment rights draws the line farther from the goal I'm defending. I'd rather they try to move it from 4th and 15.

    <snip>

    4. If hefully respected both the 2nd Amendment and the citizen's quietenjoyment of the newspaper and the evening, he would not have inserted himself into it for so little reason.In the OP, the poster was being investigated. It wasn't a public relations chat. Neither was it a "Hey, cool, what are you carrying?" It was an investigation. Absent something else, that cop justproved he thinksthat a lawfully OC'd firearm is suspicious.Wrong attitude. Unacceptable attitude.
    I picked the pieces of your post I wanted to comment on.

    1. I agree....This has been going on for far too long. 9-11, as much damage and pain as it caused that day, was an excuse to cause far more damage to this country ever since. If democracy and freedom no longer means either, why should others around the world adopt the "American" way? Because I wouldn't want to live in a place where the baseline for "new government" is how the USA is now.

    2. There are two separate points. I agree with only one. Just because burning a flag is "protected" does not mean that other speech should automatically fall into that category. Libel, for example, is not protected. The courts should make the decision as to what is protected and what is not, but to that end, I don't want my 2A rights predicated on the courts decision of what 1A protects.

    3. While it may be "unpopular" and perhaps attaches labels to you, I strongly believe that standing up for your rights is the only power you have to try to protect them. Whether your rights disappear in the interest of "homeland security" is not within your power. Citizens have not only a right, but a DUTY to protect those rights.

    4. Completely unacceptable, but I have to say that this LE was far more professional than most. And in some places (I learned this from the COPS tv show), LE has a duty to respond to reports by the public. For example, completely legal to stand in the median and hand out literature, but if someone reports you (not for the legal act of handing out literature, but instead, you might be in danger because you're standing in the median) the police are required to respond. So perhaps the escalation to contact was based solely upon a duty to respond to a citizen complaint/report. The fact that LE left after a single question suggests that perhaps the question was required only to honestly document a resolution to the report.

    Tim

  24. #24
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    peter nap wrote:
    Most officers are brain dead until they have been on the job for at least a year. (Kiddie Kops)

    The bad ones get weeded out during this time and go to work in Norfolk.
    You're tearing me up Peter. It may only be 5:20 am but you get the first laugh of the day award.

  25. #25
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    nitrovic wrote:
    Totally agree. I always thought it was the drug dealing thugs who gave the cops a hard time, I guess I thought wrong. I brought this up last week and was told that cops plant evidence in your vehicle if you allow them to search it. Then I was told that k9 officers routinely cause their dogs to false hit on a car so they could illegally search it. It's not all members on this forum that think like that, but there are more than I ever thought would be on a "good law abiding" citizen type forum like this.
    What were you expecting to find on a forum like this? Reckless law breakers? Most people I know have come here to be educated. There are good and bad people in every occupation, law enforcement is no exception to that, so I cannot say I am surprised by your insight - who told you about the k9 officer information? I've heard about LEO's planting things but I thought that was Hollywood stuff....

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