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Thread: New OC member for So Cal (metro LA)

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    Hello Everyone,
    I just found this site and read about Hellrazor's encounter with Montclair PD in at the mall in Montclair, CA. His descriptive detail of that encounter has inspired me to OC.

    Before I do this, I would like to get some questions out and will document each and every time I OC with the location and time of day.

    1) I plan to OC a Springfield Service XD 9 in two tone. Is my gun considered unloaded if my XD is holstered with an EMPTY mag in the gun (Just to keep out dust) and two loaded mags in my left front pocket?

    2) Can I carry two loaded mags in the XD gear mag belt holster and have my gun holstered and empty with no mag in the gun?

    3) I live in Metro LA which is LAPD and LA sheriffs dept jurisdiction. Anyone else on here in my neck of the woods other than the local Hellrazor out of San Dimas?

    I also plan to OC a stainless Springfield 1911 in a drop leg holster to make sure I am seen by LOE to school them on laws. I have read the laws and plan to print out the pdf and keep it on my person at all times when OCing. Pointers are welcome!


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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    aznxtroplx wrote:
    Hello Everyone,
    I just found this site and read about Hellrazor's encounter with Montclair PD in at the mall in Montclair, CA. His descriptive detail of that encounter has inspired me to OC.

    Before I do this, I would like to get some questions out and will document each and every time I OC with the location and time of day.

    1) I plan to OC a Springfield Service XD 9 in two tone. Is my gun considered unloaded if my XD is holstered with an EMPTY mag in the gun (Just to keep out dust) and two loaded mags in my left front pocket?
    Yes you can have an empty mag in the weapon to keep the dust out. Just don't carry any mags in yourpockets. There is case law to support that a concealed mag may be considered the equivalent of a concealed weapon.
    2) Can I carry two loaded mags in the XD gear mag belt holster and have my gun holstered and empty with no mag in the gun?
    Yes
    3) I live in Metro LA which is LAPD and LA sheriffs dept jurisdiction. Anyone else on here in my neck of the woods other than the local Hellrazor out of San Dimas?

    I also plan to OC a stainless Springfield 1911 in a drop leg holster to make sure I am seen by LOE to school them on laws. I have read the laws and plan to print out the pdf and keep it on my person at all times when OCing. Pointers are welcome!
    There are a few in the LA area. I know of one individual at CalGuns.net that has Open Carried with no incidents in Metro LA.

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    Since Decoligny's post was butchered by the forum's wonderful word processor, I'll reiterate:

    DO NOT carry your mags in any way that could cause them to be considered 'concealed.' The standing case law on this is that the firearm or any 'integral' part (including the magazine, lower receiver, or barrell) is considered a 'firearm' under CA PC 12025. Concealing a magazine could result in arrest, prosecution, and confiscation of your firearm.

    Instead, carry in a belt ammo pouch/holster. Current case law has interpreted PC 12031 to mean that you cannot have your ammunition/clip(s)/magazine(s) 'in a firing position.' So, as long as you don't have any unexpended rounds in the chamber or in the mag well, you're OK. Legally, you could even rig up your mag to attach to your gun, so long as it's not in the mag well (such as taping it to the side of your gun... I don't know why you would, but you could).
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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    Wow, am I understanding this right? You can OC an unloaded gun and carry loaded mags as long as the mags are not concealed? In a metrpolitan area?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    And don't forget, in CA, you can also open carry loaded handguns in unincorporated areas except as banned by County ordinance.

    This right has nothing to do with open carry permits authorized to be uissued by certain low population counties - those permit get you (loaded) open carry rights inside incorporated areas (presumably only of the issuing county - I have not chased that rabbit down yet).

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    VAopencarry wrote:
    Wow, am I understanding this right? You can OC an unloaded gun and carry loaded mags as long as the mags are not concealed? In a metrpolitan area?
    That is correct. It is a little bit complicated though. You have to avoid the "within 1000 feet of a school" (Felony)and you can't carry the firearm and the ammunition for that firearm onto State Capitol grounds. And the Police can stopyou to see that your firearm is indeed unloaded if you are in an incorporatedcity. Etc., etc.

    This pamphlet http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/8457.html and this one from MudCamper http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdfhelped a guy from PA stay out of trouble while open carrying in Oakland, CA, just outside of S.F. His story is here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/8580.html



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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    And don't forget, in CA, you can also open carry loaded handguns in unincorporated areas except as banned by County ordinance.

    This right has nothing to do with open carry permits authorized to be uissued by certain low population counties - those permit get you (loaded) open carry rights inside incorporated areas (presumably only of the issuing county - I have not chased that rabbit down yet).
    That is correct. Loaded Open Carry by permit allows an individual to carry an exposed loaded firearm everywhere in that particular county that a concealed carry permit would allow. This permit only applies to the county of issue, and they are very rare from what I have heard.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    And don't forget, in CA, you can also open carry loaded handguns in unincorporated areas except as banned by County ordinance.

    This right has nothing to do with open carry permits authorized to be uissued by certain low population counties - those permit get you (loaded) open carry rights inside incorporated areas (presumably only of the issuing county - I have not chased that rabbit down yet).
    ...and they are very rare from what I have heard.
    I doubt there has been even one issued in the past 10 years in the entire state. I don't know that, but that's my guess. After all, if you were in the political favor of the local 'authority' you could just as easily get a license to conceal...
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    aznxtroplx wrote:

    I also plan to OC a stainless Springfield 1911 in a drop leg holster to make sure I am seen by LOE to school them on laws. I have read the laws and plan to print out the pdf and keep it on my person at all times when OCing. Pointers are welcome!
    Is this in fact legal? Doesnt the gun have to be in a belt holster? Is a drop leg holster (attached to the belt at one point) considerd a belt holster?

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    camsoup wrote:
    aznxtroplx wrote:

    I also plan to OC a stainless Springfield 1911 in a drop leg holster to make sure I am seen by LOE to school them on laws. I have read the laws and plan to print out the pdf and keep it on my person at all times when OCing. Pointers are welcome!
    Is this in fact legal? Doesnt the gun have to be in a belt holster? Is a drop leg holster (attached to the belt at one point) considerd a belt holster?
    The Code simply states that a gun in a belt holster isn't concealed. It doesn't address any other open carry methods. However, in the Penal Code concerning knives, it has a similar statement about a fixed blade knife carried on the belt is not concealed. There is case law where an individual at a renessaince (sp?) fair was arrested for carrying a concealed dagger because he had the dagger in a scabbard attached to the OUTSIDE of his boot and not on his belt. The case was judged inhis favor because the officer misinterpreted the belt portion of the code to be a restriction, when it was judged by the court to be only one example of many ways to carry an unconcealed knife.

    This would probably work as a precendent if ever arrested for carrying a "concealed" firearm in a thight holster.

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    CA_Libertarian wrote:

    Legally, you could even rig up your mag to attach to your gun, so long as it's not in the mag well (such as taping it to the side of your gun... I don't know why you would, but you could).
    NO!! CA law reads .."attached in any manner..." Taped, rubber banded, glued, even stapled are all attached and will beconsidered a loaded gun.

    Keep loaded mags on the off side of the gunbelt. Simply do not have ammo on, or next to, the gun in any manner.

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    Army wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:

    Legally, you could even rig up your mag to attach to your gun, so long as it's not in the mag well (such as taping it to the side of your gun... I don't know why you would, but you could).
    NO!! CA law reads .."attached in any manner..." Taped, rubber banded, glued, even stapled are all attached and will beconsidered a loaded gun.

    Keep loaded mags on the off side of the gunbelt. Simply do not have ammo on, or next to, the gun in any manner.
    Agreed, no rubber bands, duct tape, staples, or chewing gum....

    They do however make holsters with magazine pouches as part of the holster. I think that they would be hard pressed in a court of law to claim that the magazine was attached to the gun with that type holster anymore than they could claim that it was attached to the gun by the fact that the gun on one side and magazine on the other were attached to the same belt.

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    Army wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:

    Legally, you could even rig up your mag to attach to your gun, so long as it's not in the mag well (such as taping it to the side of your gun... I don't know why you would, but you could).
    NO!! CA law reads .."attached in any manner..." Taped, rubber banded, glued, even stapled are all attached and will beconsidered a loaded gun.

    Keep loaded mags on the off side of the gunbelt. Simply do not have ammo on, or next to, the gun in any manner.
    Actually the Clark case clarified that the ammo must be "in a position from which it can be fired", but it would not be prudent to press your luck. Clark actually had shotgun shells in the buttstock shell carrier on his shotgun, and the 12031 charge was dismissed in the appeal.

    For your reading pleasure: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Peo...ark-(1996).pdf





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    Actually Clark was not a 12031 PC "loaded"case. 12031 was used to help define "loaded" in another statute. Clarkhad a "loaded firearm" chargefrom a drug (Health and Safety - H&S code) lawwhich prohibitspossession of prohibited drugs and a "loaded" firearm. The court found, using an analisis of 12031, that the firearm was not loaded in violation of the drug law. The H&S loaded charge was dismissed.

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    cato wrote:
    Actually Clark was not a 12031 PC "loaded"case. 12031 was used to help define "loaded" in another statute. Clarkhad a "loaded firearm" chargefrom a drug (Health and Safety - H&S code) lawwhich prohibitspossession of prohibited drugs and a "loaded" firearm. The court found, using an analisis of 12031, that the firearm was not loaded in violation of the drug law. The H&S loaded charge was dismissed.

    You are correct sir! But regardless, ammunition attached "in any manner" has been altered by the courts. And further regardless, I wouldn't advise taping or bubber-banding ammo onto one's sidearm.


    But what about this:



    Clearly this would not be considered loaded per the Clark decision. But again, it's still a risk of arrest when mags in a pouch on your weak side is more practical for a handgun anyway.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    And don't forget, in CA, you can also open carry loaded handguns in unincorporated areas except as banned by County ordinance.

    This right has nothing to do with open carry permits authorized to be uissued by certain low population counties - those permit get you (loaded) open carry rights inside incorporated areas (presumably only of the issuing county - I have not chased that rabbit down yet).
    That is correct.* Loaded Open Carry by permit allows an individual to carry an exposed loaded firearm everywhere in that particular county that a concealed carry permit would allow.* This permit only applies to the county of issue, and they are very rare from what I have heard.
    Since there is state pre-emption, does that mean it's OK to OC in San Francisco also? I live there most of the time, and as it stands now I don't even bring my gun because, as an SF resident, I cannot obtain an CHP.

    And what about in your car? Is a firearm legal if unconcealed and unloaded in your vehicle?

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    marshaul wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    And don't forget, in CA, you can also open carry loaded handguns in unincorporated areas except as banned by County ordinance.

    This right has nothing to do with open carry permits authorized to be uissued by certain low population counties - those permit get you (loaded) open carry rights inside incorporated areas (presumably only of the issuing county - I have not chased that rabbit down yet).
    That is correct. Loaded Open Carry by permit allows an individual to carry an exposed loaded firearm everywhere in that particular county that a concealed carry permit would allow. This permit only applies to the county of issue, and they are very rare from what I have heard.
    Since there is state pre-emption, does that mean it's OK to OC in San Francisco also? I live there most of the time, and as it stands now I don't even bring my gun because, as an SF resident, I cannot obtain an CHP.

    And what about in your car? Is a firearm legal if unconcealed and unloaded in your vehicle?
    I haven't found anything in CA Penal Code that prohibits unloaded open carry in a car. Be careful of the School Zones though.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/8457.html

    http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    Since there is state pre-emption, does that mean it's OK to OC in San Francisco also? I live there most of the time, and as it stands now I don't even bring my gun because, as an SF resident, I cannot obtain an CHP.
    Technically, San Francisco is no different than most other cities in CA as far as OC goes. Practically, I don't know. You may have more gun-hating cops and DAs then elsewhere.

    marshaul wrote:
    And what about in your car? Is a firearm legal if unconcealed and unloaded in your vehicle?
    Again, technically, yes it is legal. But if a part of your jacket, or your hat, or an envelope fall over even a single tiny part of the firearm, then they could get you on 12025 (concealed). It would be better to get a small lock-box for your car.




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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Here's something I would wonder about OC in any city:

    What about schools? How does one ensure that one is 1000ft away from a school at all times? That's actually a fair distance (a few city blocks), which would mean that vast swathes of the city would be off-limits for guns outside of a home.

    Is there like a map that shows the locations of all K-12 schools in a particular city?

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    marshaul wrote:
    Here's something I would wonder about OC in any city:

    What about schools? How does one ensure that one is 1000ft away from a school at all times? That's actually a fair distance (a few city blocks), which would mean that vast swathes of the city would be off-limits for guns outside of a home.

    Is there like a map that shows the locations of all K-12 schools in a particular city?
    Here's what the law says:

    (b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
    knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
    paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
    permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
    designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
    specified in subdivision (f).
    So how do we, or the police, or a DA, or a jury interpret "the person knows, or reasonably should know". That's the question. It's poorly writen law, on top of being a bad law. It needs to be repealed. Unfortunately that won't ever happen. Maybe post-Heller. But then we'll probably wina shall issue CCW law before that.



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    MudCamper wrote:
    So how do we, or the police, or a DA, or a jury interpret "the person knows, or reasonably should know". That's the question. It's poorly writen law, on top of being a bad law. It needs to be repealed. Unfortunately that won't ever happen. Maybe post-Heller. But then we'll probably wina shall issue CCW law before that.

    That's the job of the jury. The law assumes that if 12 of your peers agree on what is reasonable then it must be so. Of course, in reality it is easily possible to get 12 unreasonable sheeple who believe anything the TV and the prosecutor tells them...
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