Police Dept's you have spoken to

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Today I was off work so I decided it was time to meet the new Chief of Police in Burton. I also posted this in Flint Gear Grinders Car Show thread. And it got me thinking that this might be the appropriate place for everyone to start posting about there various encounters with law enforcement.

I spoke the new Burton City Chief of Police and gave him a copy of the paperwork Venator passed out. He was receptive but didn't seem to care for OC. I say he was receptive because he said he would abide by what ever the local proscecuting attorney said was law. Though his response was to give me a what if scenario. He wanted to know "What if a criminal was to OC a firearm in a holster?", and the reason for his concern was that the officer has no right to do a back ground check on the individual.

All what ifs aside I had mixed opinions on the encounter. He was a polite, honest, and forthcoming individual, who admitedly knew his officers had no right to approach an individual based solely on a OC'ed firearm. However when I approached him concerning the dispatchers, he said he would have nothing to do with contacting the county dispatchers at the state police post (which is where all dispatching in Genesse county is done).

We spoke for a while in which he told me of his previous 10 years with the local PD, his time with the FBI, and his service in Vietnam. I thanked him for his service, and left him with the paperwork. He assured me he would review Venator's information, recommended that we speak to the prosecuting attorney and someone in charge at the state police post, and we parted ways.


What other PD's have you guys been in contact with?

And what were there responses?

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I never talked to my local chief about it, but I have heard all the common BS about "what will happen" if you OC when I've talked to different officers.

By the way, it's funny that he suggested talking to the MSP. They've done more than any other agency in Michigan for open carry with their may 2007 newsletter.

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Michigander wrote:

I never talked to my local chief about it, but I have heard all the common BS about "what will happen" if you OC when I've talked to different officers.

By the way, it's funny that he suggested talking to the MSP. They've done more than any other agency in Michigan for open carry with their may 2007 newsletter.

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He only referred me to the State Police Post to talk to them about there dispatching practices. In Genesse County all dispatching is done at the local State Post.

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sorry for bumping an old thread but as i see it this IS the place to tell MY story.

i live in northern Macomb County, Mich. here in my subdivision, we have a few county sherrifs that work with troublesome teens trying to help set them straight before it is too late.

i had an opportunity to ask one of them today IF he had ever responded to a call where someone was open carrying. he said in his 20 some years on the force he himself had never responded to such a call. we talked further and in our discussion i asked HIS opinion or outlook on OC'ing.........he said and i quote "even if it is in a holster on your hip wide open for the world to see it is STILL concealed by the holster in some fashion and therefore considered concealed"

HOW can i feel safe and confident OC'ing IF the powers that be look at it this way? i

maybe it is time for a get together somewhere in Macomb County.

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warlockmatized wrote:

sorry for bumping an old thread but as i see it this IS the place to tell MY story.

i live in northern Macomb County, Mich. here in my subdivision, we have a few county sherrifs that work with troublesome teens trying to help set them straight before it is too late.

i had an opportunity to ask one of them today IF he had ever responded to a call where someone was open carrying. he said in his 20 some years on the force he himself had never responded to such a call. we talked further and in our discussion i asked HIS opinion or outlook on OC'ing.........he said and i quote "even if it is in a holster on your hip wide open for the world to see it is STILL concealed by the holster in some fashion and therefore considered concealed"

HOW can i feel safe and confident OC'ing IF the powers that be look at it this way? i

maybe it is time for a get together somewhere in Macomb County.

Click to expand...

You know, we hear a lot of stories like this. Most police want to oppress open carry so they give out mis-information all the time. One said that if you were turned to the side andhe couldn't see your open gun he considered it concealed. So are we supposed to walk while making rapid circles so that our guns are visible to everyone at any angle...nonsense. We learned; don't ask the police about the law. The cop on the beat is often woefully unaware of the law. That is why they make so many arrest that are later dropped. Give the officer this (below) and then ask him how; if open carry is legal, you should carry your handgun...if not in a holster then tapped to your head?

You really need to come to the car shown on June 14th and get some info from us. The bottom line the police can arrest you for anything at anytime, the reality is that this rarely happens and weknow of no case where someone has been convicted for lawful open carry in Michigan.

… Section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code does not define the crime of brandishing a firearm in public. The Michigan Criminal Jury Instructions, published by the Committee on Standard Criminal Jury Instructions, does not include a recommended jury instruction on brandishing a firearm. Research discloses that while the term "brandishing" appears in reported Michigan cases,[suP]2[/suP] none of the cases define the term.

In[/b] the absence of any reported [/b]Michigan[/b] appellate court decisions defining "brandishing,"[/b] it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."

Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.

It is my opinion, therefore, …by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the [/b]Michigan[/b] Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public. [/b][size=[font="Times New Roman"]JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, Attorney General[/font]]

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Send this to your local police chiefs. Cut and paste into a word document reformat or reword it as you choose and mail or email it.


PURPOSE: To provide guidance in calls for services that involves a person who is openly carrying a pistol in a holster.

As you may know any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who can legally possess a firearm may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law without a CPL (1). Those that do not have a CPL when transporting their firearms must do so as prescribe by law. No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law (2).

Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm (3). Attorney General Opinion 7101, 2/02 states “…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.”]In regards to disorderly conduct due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry.Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address.No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. Officers should not editorialize against open carry by private citizens in any way shape or form, or in any way suggest that a person should conceal their firearm.Suggestions and editorializing against lawful open carry may be interpreted as “commands” by civilians who are lawfully open carrying and may subject officers to complaints filed against them, as well as possible legal action against themselves and the department.

Recently it has been opined by the AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi that persons with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. (4).

It is suggested that Law enforcement supervisors inform their staff in regards to the legality of openly carrying a handgun in Michigan. It is also suggested that an officer protocol be developed in dealing with such a call. It also would be beneficial to inform your dispatchers and your county 911 department in developing a protocol on receiving a “man with a gun” call. An example of some questions to ask a person calling 911 about a person openly carrying is included.

It is our hope that by informing you and all law enforcement personnel throughout the state about the legality of open carry that we can avoid any civil or criminal actions that might otherwise occur. If you have questions or concerns please contact your prosecuting attorney. We thank you for your time and consideration in this regard, and as law abiding citizens we appreciate the demanding and dangerous work you all do.

Footnotes:


(1)[/b] Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

b) A church or other house of religious worship.

c) A court.

d) A theatre.

e) A sports arena.

f) A day care center.

g) A hospital.

h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession

of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

b) A peace officer.

c) [/b]A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon[/b].[/b]

d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [/b]

(2)[/b] MSP Legal Update Newsletter: April 2007[/b]
Did You Know: It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol.

Preemption:[/b] In MCRGO v. Ferndale[/b], the Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession. Therefore, officers should check with their prosecutors before enforcing an ordinance that imposes a general ban on openly carrying a pistol.

THE MICHIGAN SUPREME COURT CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237

In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas. [/b]
[/b]
Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse. [/b]

In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
[/b][/b][/b]
(3)[/b] [/b]Act 328 of 1931
750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor.
Sec. 234e.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not knowingly brandish a firearm in public. (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.
(b) A person lawfully engaged in hunting.
(c) A person lawfully engaged in target practice.
(d) A person lawfully engaged in the sale, purchase, repair, or transfer of that firearm.
History: Add. 1990, Act 321, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991

Opinion No. 7101 [/b]February 6, 2002[/b] [/b]In part:

… Section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code does not define the crime of brandishing a firearm in public. The Michigan Criminal Jury Instructions, published by the Committee on Standard Criminal Jury Instructions, does not include a recommended jury instruction on brandishing a firearm. Research discloses that while the term "brandishing" appears in reported Michigan cases,[suP]2[/suP] none of the cases define the term.

In[/b] the absence of any reported [/b]Michigan[/b] appellate court decisions defining "brandishing,"[/b] it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."

Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.

It is my opinion, therefore, …by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the [/b]Michigan[/b] Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public. [/b][size=JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, Attorney General]

[/b][/b][/b](4) [/b]Three opinions on this topic. An AG’s opinion, the Michigan State Police, and a State Senator’s.[/b]

AG opinion No. 7097 [/b]FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN January 11, 2002: This conclusion is not affected by the provisions of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1 et seq. That statute prohibits certain persons from possessing firearms on certain types of premises as follows: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
b) A church or other house of religious worship.
c) A court.
d) A theatre.
e) A sports arena.
f) A day care center.
g) A hospital.
h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
b) A peace officer.
c) [/b]A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon[/b].[/b]
d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [Emphasis added.]
By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol,… is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.[/b]

MSP opinion:[/b] Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones. Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

Senator Prusi’s opinion:[/b] My office received your inquiry regarding the legality of a licensed CPL holder to open carry a firearm in "Pistol Free Zones." On Friday we received a copy of your correspondence, as Senator Carl Levin's Office referred your letter to my office because your concerns mainly pertain to state issues. As such, I am happy to assist you in this matter.

My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are licensed a CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter….Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"



[align=center]Example of a 911 Protocol for a[/b][/align]

[align=center]“Person with a gun call”[/align]

[align=left]911: [/b]This is 911 what is your emergency?[/b]
[/b]
[/b]Caller: Ah….not sure if this is an emergency but there’s some guy with a gun on his belt here in the Wal-Mart.[/b][/align]

[align=left][/b]911: Is the gun in a holster or is this person waving the gun around or threatening anyone? Is anyone injured? What is the man doing?[/align]

[align=left]Caller: [/b]Aaah…no one is hurt. Aaaah…the guy is just shopping. Pushing a cart looking at some frozen carrots I think. Yah he’s looking at carrots.[/b]

[/b]911: [/b]Does this man seem to be intoxicated or mentally impaired? Does he appear to be acting irrationally?
[/b]
[/b]Caller: No he doesn’t seem to be acting strange other than the gun. Can’t you send some officers here to check him out? Think of the children.

[/b]911: Does the person appear to be 18 years old or older?

[/b]Caller: I would say he’s about 35 years old, average build, dark short hair, and he has a short beard. He’s wearing khaki pants with a dark blue polo shirt.
[/b]
[/b]911: Sir, the open carry of a handgun is legal in Michigan by any lawful person 18 years old or older. Unless the person is waving it around in a threatening manner or is acting irrationally there is nothing we can legally do. Now if the person should threaten someone or become agitated let us know and we’ll send a car, but until then have a good night.[/b]

[/b]If 911 dispatchers had a protocol similar to this over simplified example for handling this type of call; that is just by asking a few short questions the adrenalin factor would be reduced and officer stress would be diminished. Each department can decide if a patrol car needs to be dispatched to investigate this kind of call, and if so, the officer would have more information on how to handle the encounter.
[/align]

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OH WOW!

thank you so much for that. it will go out in snail mail in the morning and email as of the posting of this reply. see you in Flint :celebrate

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harley2003rkc wrote:

Michigander wrote:

I never talked to my local chief about it, but I have heard all the common BS about "what will happen" if you OC when I've talked to different officers.

By the way, it's funny that he suggested talking to the MSP. They've done more than any other agency in Michigan for open carry with their may 2007 newsletter.

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He only referred me to the State Police Post to talk to them about there dispatching practices. In Genesse County all dispatching is done at the local State Post.

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This is only partly true. County 911 at the state police post dispatches all 911 calls with the exception of fenton who has their own 911 I believe. However some departments also utilise their own dispatch with 911. just FYI.

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teamreddog wrote:

harley2003rkc wrote:

Michigander wrote:

I never talked to my local chief about it, but I have heard all the common BS about "what will happen" if you OC when I've talked to different officers.

By the way, it's funny that he suggested talking to the MSP. They've done more than any other agency in Michigan for open carry with their may 2007 newsletter.

Click to expand...

He only referred me to the State Police Post to talk to them about there dispatching practices. In Genesse County all dispatching is done at the local State Post.

Click to expand...

This is only partly true. County 911 at the state police post dispatches all 911 calls with the exception of fenton who has their own 911 I believe. However some departments also utilise their own dispatch with 911. just FYI.

Click to expand...

Yes they do.

http://www.cityoffenton.org/police/

The City of Fenton Police Department is a full service police department patrolling the City of Fenton 24 hours each and every day. Our department currently employs 16 sworn police officers, 12 patrol officers and supervisors, 3 detectives and the Chief of Police.

The 911 Emergency dispatch Center for the City is also located within the Police Department. All 911 calls for Police, Fire, EMS and other services are routed through the City’s 911 Dispatch Center. The Center is staffed by a supervisor, three full time dispatchers and two part time dispatchers. All dispatch staff are EMD Certified Dispatchers and handle a variety of duties including handling emergency calls, dispatch for Fire and Police calls, coordinate EMS response with various responders as well as administrative duties.

Our goal is to provide police services to the Community of Fenton in a timely and professional manner.

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Fenton doesn't respond very well to email enquiries. I emailedChief Aro of the Fenton police a few weeks ago through the city's website asking about open carry in Fenton and I have not heard back from him yet.

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Graydon wrote:

Fenton doesn't respond very well to email enquiries. I emailedChief Aro of the Fenton police a few weeks ago through the city's website asking about open carry in Fenton and I have not heard back from him yet.

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It's very unlikely you will. Even if he does reply, you will not like what he has to say.

If you feel the urge, if possible, email/call/write to Lt. Merrill.

Edit to add:

BTW, please do not ask me to explain why I posted this.

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I am a new gun owner and have been reading different gun forums to try and educate myself about different issues. Until reading this forum I didn't realize OC was legal in MI because I have never seen it except by LEO. So today I was in Lansing with a friend who was doing some shopping. I stepped outside to have a smoke and noticed an Ingham County Deputy car in the next parking lot. I walked over to him and opened the conversation about whether one place was better than another for CCW training...he said one was as good as another...ice broken I asked him if he had an opinion about OC'ing and he said absolutely no way is it legal to walk down the street with a firearm on your hip in a holster..."this isn't Texas, you know". The only way you can open carry (says him) is when hunting with a proper license and out in the field.

I couldn't pretend to quote chapter and verse of the Penal Code so just said thanks for your time. So on the way home I stopped in at my local FFL to pick up my new gun and asked him about OC'ing and he told me about the same thing.

I may continue to ask LEO's in the future about this but probably won't OC in the forseeable future just so I won't have to spend a few hours in jail or whatever just to prove a point.

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Both of them were wrong.

You should have asked them to state the law where it says it's against the law...... and waited..... and waited....... for a response to never come.

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I sent an email to the Police Chief of Royal Oak about 3 weeks ago asking if his officers are informed of the OC law, and I'm waiting, and waiting,.............

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Barndoor wrote:

I am a new gun owner and have been reading different gun forums to try and educate myself about different issues. Until reading this forum I didn't realize OC was legal in MI because I have never seen it except by LEO. So today I was in Lansing with a friend who was doing some shopping. I stepped outside to have a smoke and noticed an Ingham County Deputy car in the next parking lot. I walked over to him and opened the conversation about whether one place was better than another for CCW training...he said one was as good as another...ice broken I asked him if he had an opinion about OC'ing and he said absolutely no way is it legal to walk down the street with a firearm on your hip in a holster..."this isn't Texas, you know". The only way you can open carry (says him) is when hunting with a proper license and out in the field.

I couldn't pretend to quote chapter and verse of the Penal Code so just said thanks for your time. So on the way home I stopped in at my local FFL to pick up my new gun and asked him about OC'ing and he told me about the same thing.

I may continue to ask LEO's in the future about this but probably won't OC in the forseeable future just so I won't have to spend a few hours in jail or whatever just to prove a point.

Click to expand...

Never ask the police what the law is, period. It is perfectly legal to open carry in Michigan Check our other threads print out the info below and study it carry it and show it to anyone that mayy state otherwise.

[align=center]YOU CAN OPENLY CARRY A HANDGUN IN [/b]MICHIGAN[/b]*[/b][/align]
[/b]

[/b]

[/b]

1) Any law abiding citizen of the State of [/b]Michigan[/b] who owns a safety inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL. Private property rules over-ride state law in regards to firearm possession. [/b]



MSP Legal Update Newsletter[/b]: April 2007: Did You Know: …It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol…...



PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d[/b] (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank[/b]. b) A church[/b]. c) A court[/b]. d) A theatre[/b]. e) A sports arena.[/b] f) A day care center[/b]. g) A hospital[/b]. h) An establishment licensed under the [/b]Michigan[/b] liquor control act (BAR[/b]). (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

b) A peace officer.

c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.[/b]

d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [/b]



2) If you don’t have a CPL, you must transport your handgun as prescribe by law. [/b]



Michigan[/b] [/b]State Police Web Site[/b]. Transporting a pistol in a motor vehicle?



Answer A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose[/b] if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle. The law defines ‘lawful purpose’[/b] as: 1)[/b] While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area. 2)[/b] While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair. 3)[/b] While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business. 4)[/b] While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol. 5)[/b] While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale. 6)[/b] While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted. 7) While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance. [/b]

[/b]

3) No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to [/b]Michigan[/b]’s preemption law.[/b]

[/b]

In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.



THE [/b]MICHIGAN[/b] SUPREME COURT CONCLUDED[/b]: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.



Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.



MCRGO v. [/b]Ferndale[/b]: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.



[/b]

[/b]

4) Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm. [/b]



ADVISORY NOTE[/b]: Though this section on disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.



BRANDISHING[/b] Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: [/b]…In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish."[/b] This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the [/b]Michigan[/b] Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.[/b]



5) A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. It is your option to provide ID/CPL. [/b]

[/b]

ADVISORY NOTE[/b]: Each situation is different. We recommend you cooperate with all lawful questions and requests. Ask the officer if the reason you are being detained is for the legal open carry of a firearm. After giving your name and address, ask if you are free to go, ask if you are being detained. If they continue to ask questions about ID and why you are carrying a gun, repeat the question, am I free to go? Am I being detained? If the situation escalates ask for a supervisor. Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest. After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.

[/b]

6) An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc. [/b]



Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.



“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”

Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, [/b]Michigan[/b] [/b]State[/b] Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441[/b]



“…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"[/b]



ADVISORY NOTE[/b]: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.[/b]

[align=center][/b][/align]
[align=center]FOR MORE INFO SEE WWW.OPENCARRY.ORG and click on forums, then click on [/b]MICHIGAN[/b].[/b][/align]
[/b]

*The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research on the subject of open carry in [/b]Michigan[/b]. You are responsible in determining the accuracy of any information listed above. If you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.[/b]

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harley2003rkc wrote:

Michigander wrote:

I never talked to my local chief about it, but I have heard all the common BS about "what will happen" if you OC when I've talked to different officers.

By the way, it's funny that he suggested talking to the MSP. They've done more than any other agency in Michigan for open carry with their may 2007 newsletter.

Click to expand...

He only referred me to the State Police Post to talk to them about there dispatching practices. In Genesse County all dispatching is done at the local State Post.

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I sure miss Michigan! Joined the Navy out of Kalamazoo 23 years ago, get home every couple to visist. This years visit I'll be bring my M&P to carry, since Michigan honors WACPL, where I'm stationed.

Will they honor OC for me, or just the CCW?

I do remember it was around 1985, just before enlisting my pal and I were coming back form the Kalamazoo Rod & Gun Club after an afternoon of shooting. We stopped at a Burger King that was at the corner of Gull Rd and Sprinkle Rd, he was carrying hisnew 686 and I my Remington New Model Army .44BP holsteredoff my belt.We entered, got several strange looks from the counter help, and then we remembered, wewere stillcarrying, we finished eating and left. No one said a thing, no LEO called. I was 24 at the time. I don't recall ifMichigan was OC back then.

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jbone wrote:

I sure miss Michigan! Joined the Navy out of Kalamazoo 23 years ago, get home every couple to visist. This years visit I'll be bring my M&P to carry, since Michigan honors WACPL, where I'm stationed.

Will they honor OC for me, or just the CCW?

I do remember it was around 1985, just before enlisting my pal and I were coming back form the Kalamazoo Rod & Gun Club after an afternoon of shooting. We stopped at a Burger King that was at the corner of Gull Rd and Sprinkle Rd, he was carrying hisnew 686 and I my Remington New Model Army .44BP holsteredoff my belt.We entered, got several strange looks from the counter help, and then we remembered, wewere stillcarrying, we finished eating and left. No one said a thing, no LEO called. I was 24 at the time. I don't recall ifMichigan was OC back then.

Click to expand...

Open carry is legal in Michigan. Since you have a CPL from you home state you can bring and use your handgun in Michigan. So you are free to open or conceal carry your handgun. You may want to print of the info posted below in case some LEO doesn't know the law.



[align=center]YOU CAN OPENLY CARRY A HANDGUN IN [/b]MICHIGAN[/b]*[/b][/align]
[/b]

[/b]1) Any law abiding citizen of the State of [/b]Michigan[/b] who owns a safety inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL. Private property rules over-ride state law in regards to firearm possession. [/b]



MSP Legal Update Newsletter[/b]: April 2007: Did You Know: …It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol…...



PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d[/b] (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank[/b]. b) A church[/b]. c) A court[/b]. d) A theatre[/b]. e) A sports arena.[/b] f) A day care center[/b]. g) A hospital[/b]. h) An establishment licensed under the [/b]Michigan[/b] liquor control act (BAR[/b]). (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

b) A peace officer.

c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.[/b]

d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [/b]



2) If you don’t have a CPL, you must transport your handgun as prescribe by law. [/b]



Michigan[/b] [/b]State Police Web Site[/b]. Transporting a pistol in a motor vehicle?



Answer A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose[/b] if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle. The law defines ‘lawful purpose’[/b] as: 1)[/b] While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area. 2)[/b] While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair. 3)[/b] While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business. 4)[/b] While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol. 5)[/b] While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale. 6)[/b] While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted. 7) While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance. [/b]

[/b]

3) No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to [/b]Michigan[/b]’s preemption law.[/b]

[/b]

In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.



THE [/b]MICHIGAN[/b] SUPREME COURT CONCLUDED[/b]: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.



Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.



MCRGO v. [/b]Ferndale[/b]: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.



[/b]

[/b]

4) Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm. [/b]



ADVISORY NOTE[/b]: Though this section on disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.



BRANDISHING[/b] Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: [/b]…In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish."[/b] This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the [/b]Michigan[/b] Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.[/b]



5) A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. It is your option to provide ID/CPL. [/b]

[/b]

ADVISORY NOTE[/b]: Each situation is different. We recommend you cooperate with all lawful questions and requests. Ask the officer if the reason you are being detained is for the legal open carry of a firearm. After giving your name and address, ask if you are free to go, ask if you are being detained. If they continue to ask questions about ID and why you are carrying a gun, repeat the question, am I free to go? Am I being detained? If the situation escalates ask for a supervisor. Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest. After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.

[/b]

6) An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc. [/b]



Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.



“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”

Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, [/b]Michigan[/b] [/b]State[/b] Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441[/b]



“…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"[/b]



ADVISORY NOTE[/b]: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.[/b]



[align=center][/b][/align]


[align=center]FOR MORE INFO SEE http://WWW.OPENCARRY.ORG and click on forums, then click on [/b]MICHIGAN[/b].[/b][/align]
[/b]

*The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research on the subject of open carry in [/b]Michigan[/b]. You are responsible in determining the accuracy of any information listed above. If you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.[/b]

imported post

Venator, I dropped off your form letter (plus a personal note at the beginning) with the Ann Arbor Police Chief. I gave my name and email address in case he wanted to contact me. Amusingly, they wanted to see my ID when I dropped it off, to see if I was who I said I was. I gave it to them, so as to look cooperative.

imported post

Rogue9er wrote:

Venator, I dropped off your form letter (plus a personal note at the beginning) with the Ann Arbor Police Chief. I gave my name and email address in case he wanted to contact me. Amusingly, they wanted to see my ID when I dropped it off, to see if I was who I said I was. I gave it to them, so as to look cooperative.

Click to expand...

That's great, I wouldn't hold by breath waiting for a response. But if you get one, we would like to see it. May I suggest you send one to your County Sheriff as well.

imported post

3 weeks later and still no replies from ANY of the stuff i sent, email or snail mail. Didn't think i would get a response, just figured i'd update.