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Thread: SUCCESSFUL FREEDOM BASED ARGUMENT

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    HE WHO DEFINES THE ARGUMENT, in the first place,and who selects its nomenclature and semantics usually wins that argument. Most arguments are not won or lost upon the basis of sound and logical reasoning, but rather by the EMOTIONAL responses of the audience.

    Accordingly, I suggest that in our writing we speak of the pro-freedom side of the debate and the anti-freedom side, or the suppressionist side of it.

    Freely speak of government DISCRIMINATING as to which citizen can defend his life and who is screwed out of his constitutional right to defend his life from the violence of man or beast.

    Instead of speaking of "strict" gun control, refer to "severe" or "oppressive" or "harsh" or "intimidating" gun control that results in effective loss of citizen's rights of self defense. Remember that "gun control" is victim disarmament.

    Remember that guns are life-saving emergency equipment.

    Remember that gun control is O.S.H.A. (US Labor Dept. Occupational Safety and Health Administration) for violent criminals protecting them on-the-jobfrom the defenses of their victims.

    U can raise the question:

    " If criminals are willing to ignore the laws against ROBBERY;
    if criminals are willing to disregard the laws against MURDER,
    HOW can we convince them to OBEY gun control laws ? "

    U can refer to the plaintive and futile appeals for help from Kitty Genovese as she was being stabbed to death for about an hour, in NYC, when noone even called police. U can refer to Reginald Denny being stomped in the streets of California on national TV for maybe 45 minutes (??) with no help from police who fled the scene.

    These are some of the possibilties.

    Use them in good health and in freedom

    David

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    Very well spoken David and excellent first post! Welcome to OCDO! Great folks here with just a few loonies... makes it interesting to say the least! Stick around and ask any questions you may have. I'm looking forward to hearing more of what you have to say!

    Tells us a bit about yourself. Where are you? Do you OC there? What do you carry?

    Bob


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    *

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    BobCav wrote:
    Very well spoken David and excellent first post! Welcome to OCDO! Great folks here with just a few loonies... makes it interesting to say the least! Stick around and ask any questions you may have. I'm looking forward to hearing more of what you have to say!

    Tells us a bit about yourself. Where are you? Do you OC there? What do you carry?

    Bob


    Thank u, BobCav.

    Sadly, I am a life-long New Yorker (NYC), except for 5 years in Arizona about 50 years ago.

    I am retired from the practice of law. There is no open carry in NY, unless you are in someuniform. I have only a license to possess in my house. My defensive weapon of choice is a 2" .44 special Taurus revolver instainless steel mirror, loaded with hollowpointed slugs to optimize energy dump into the target. I have a small gun collection-- mostly revolvers ( whose mechanical reliability I value ) and a few automatics, e.g., my 9mm1940 Luger P-'08.

    A few years ago, I wrote a paper concerning the right to KABA, which u are welcome to read, if u like. It may soon be rendered obsolete by the USSC's ruling in the DC case. I take a pure vu of the 2A; i.e., that by it, allgovernments in America are deprived of any jurisdiction to control, tax or in any way to influence possession of guns.

    I admire Vermont and Alaska and support the Castle Doctrine.

    When confronted with questions regarding public safety, I recommend that men who have proven themselves to be intolerably dangerous, be isolated from decent society. Thinkof theAlcatraz model. I regret that the Founders did not have the presence of mind to invest both state and federal governments with concurrent jurisdiction to BANISH violently recidivistic felons ( think of the Botany Bay model); maybe its not too late.

    David





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    Pointman wrote:
    Great post. Bob isn't trying to grill you, your post just peaked his attention.
    Thank u, Pointman !

    Questions are OK !

    David

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    NY is a great place to visit.

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    Pointman wrote:
    My wife and I were in NY this winter--great place to visit.

    I'm happy to see another pure 2-A supporter with a .44. Most guns don't stop people by "dumping energy," but since the .44 creates a temporary wound cavity the size of a volley-ball, it sure warrants consideration.
    Yes

    Some bad guys believe that getting hit withhollowpointed .44s can bring bad luck.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum. Excellent first post and I look forward to your contributions.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Thank u !

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    Wow, I don't know how we(OCDO members) ever debated gun control before reading this.
    , "DISCRIMINATING as to which citizen can defend his life",-

    "severe" or "oppressive" or "harsh" or "intimidating" gun control that results in effective loss of citizen's rights of self defense. -

    "gun control" is victim disarmament.

    guns are life-saving emergency equipment.

    " If criminals are willing to ignore the laws against ROBBERY;
    if criminals are willing to disregard the laws against MURDER,
    HOW can we convince them to OBEY gun control laws ? "

    victim example's

    Seriously, what the hell do you think we have been saying? Why do you feel the need to come here and tell us how to debate gun control? Many members here already have a solid grasp on the topic.

    New member credo= read more, talk less.

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    Wow, I don't know how we(OCDO members) ever debated gun control before reading this.
    , "DISCRIMINATING as to which citizen can defend his life",-

    "severe" or "oppressive" or "harsh" or "intimidating" gun control that results in effective loss of citizen's rights of self defense. -

    "gun control" is victim disarmament.

    guns are life-saving emergency equipment.

    " If criminals are willing to ignore the laws against ROBBERY;
    if criminals are willing to disregard the laws against MURDER,
    HOW can we convince them to OBEY gun control laws ? "

    victim example's

    Seriously, what the hell do you think we have been saying? Why do you feel the need to come here and tell us how to debate gun control? Many members here already have a solid grasp on the topic.

    New member credo= read more, talk less.
    Adopt your own credos.

    I do not feel a need; however, over years and decades,I have observed that folks on the freedom side of the issue have been too co-operative in accepting the words foisted upon us by the suppressionists. Hence, it serves a good purpose to circulate better strategic ideas, and if blowhardscomplain about it, that is of little consequence.

    David


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    Critics everywhere....

    It's unfortunate that when one person (David) makes such a good point that we should be remembering, others, who are on the same side, attack their own. If the thread isn't worth your time, don't hit the Watch button nor reply.

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    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    A few years ago, I wrote a paper concerning the right to KABA, which u are welcome to read, if u like. It may soon be rendered obsolete by the USSC's ruling in the DC case. I take a pure vu of the 2A; i.e., that by it, allgovernments in America are deprived of any jurisdiction to control, tax or in any way to influence possession of guns.

    I admire Vermont and Alaska and support the Castle Doctrine.




    Welcome to the forum David, that was an insightful post. I completelyagree with your pure view of the 2nd amendment and I would be interested to read your paper sometime.
    Peace through superior firepower

    Luke 11:21
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.

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    I got lost in your argument when you started using ‘U’ for ‘you’. I think you had something good to say.

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    David, thanks for the reply. I understood what you were saying. Often we get a lot of fence-sitters and compromisers, as well as the occasional anti-gun or anti-OC trolls,that hop on here to spout their "manifesto" for their first post and then leave. Glad you're not one of them!

    I agree, the impassionedargument is often the only one that will stir the soul of another, motivating and inspiringthose who would listento find thatgreatness that lies deep within. It is far more effective thanhard statistical data and it is my style of choice. It's also a very effective and efficientsorting tool!

    "There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the long run the sword will always be conquered by the spirit." - Napoleon Bonaparte

    I grew up in the northern provinces of the DPRNJ myself (Bergen Kounty - Demokratic Peoples Republik of New Jersey) and only escaped to join the Navy in 84. I only go back visit my family on "VisitingDays" and bringcare packages from the outside world.

    It's funny you mentioned OSHA. I can certainly understand safety as it was paramount in the Navy and saved my ass many times. Enginerooms are inherently deadly places andthere's no pointin being careless.My last job was a Quality Manager (ISO 9000-2001 Certified Internal Auditor) andDivisional Safety Officer (OSHA 30 hr. Certified). I always HATED the Safety Guy and now I was he! Having been through the OSHA course withmy head in that damn book all the time, I soon realized that thoughsomeof it does make sense in an industrial environment, there is so much more that is just plain RIDICULOUS! It seemed to me to be nothing more than the intentional and methodical micromanagement and legislation of common sense andgovernmental interference withDarwinian natural selection!

    I say remove all the safety devices and warning labels from EVERYTHING and let the problem take care of itself!

    A retired New York Lawyer, huh? Always good to have a friend inside the "occupied territory"!I'd be very interested in reading that paper you wrote. Would you post it here for all to read?

    What is your take of Lord Bloomberg's political ambitions and his Coalition of Mayors Against Illegal Guns?



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    VAopencarry...you should learn to calm down...take deep breaths and enjoy a nice warm soothing glass of shut the hell up. What purpose does your post have? Save for disrespecting a well worded post of another and possible dissuading him from being an active member here? I dont think that David was making himself out to be the Messiah of the 2nd Amendment but rather was only sharing his beliefs on the topic. Is there some antiquated Jim Crow era grandfather clause here that only people who have been here as long as you should be able to say anything?

    Don't we have a tall enough order with the anti nuts, the sheeple, the left coast commies, the new england intelligentsia, presidential candidates that dont champion the 2nd amendment,a Supreme court that teeters by one vote on taking our guns away, the NRA and S&W all too eager to compromise, the LEO's that subplant opinion for law and all the other obstacles without you and your ******** Holier than thou attitude trying to knock down a new member here.

    If i mayparaphrase The Rock: "Take a long walk down Know your role Boulevard, hang that right at Jabroni Drive, and park your ass on Shut your Mouth Road."

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    Nice and succinct. I like it.


    What I pulled from the beginning of the post was that the two major political parties seem to be hypocritical in their stances on gun control in relation to their stances on other issues, and that instead of looking at the world in terms of picking and choosing freedoms, instead we should be looking at degrees of freedom.

    Or I could be completely wrong.


    Either way, glad to have you here. Just please use "you" instead of "u". Please?

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    Seriously, what the hell do you think we have been saying? Why do you feel the need to come here and tell us how to debate gun control? Many members here already have a solid grasp on the topic.

    New member credo= read more, talk less.
    The man is a pro- 2A lawyer who is published and obviously well studied on this subject. Maybe you should comprehend more and preach/ criticize less.
    Bitka Sve Reava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Flintlock wrote:
    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    A few years ago, I wrote a paper concerning the right to KABA, which u are welcome to read, if u like. It may soon be rendered obsolete by the USSC's ruling in the DC case. I take a pure vu of the 2A; i.e., that by it, allgovernments in America are deprived of any jurisdiction to control, tax or in any way to influence possession of guns.

    I admire Vermont and Alaska and support the Castle Doctrine.




    Welcome to the forum David, that was an insightful post. I completelyagree with your pure view of the 2nd amendment and I would be interested to read your paper sometime.
    Thank u. Anyone who is interested in reading it ( an 8 page condensed treatise ) is welcome to a free copy thereof. I 'd be pleased to email it, but my previous efforts to do so have resulted in badly mangled formating. ( My knowledge of computer handling is very poor and limited. ) I am open to suggestion. Paper mail is OK, for whoevergives me anaddress.


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    David, happy to reformat for you. PM sent!

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    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    HE WHO DEFINES THE ARGUMENT, in the first place,and who selects its nomenclature and semantics usually wins that argument. Most arguments are not won or lost upon the basis of sound and logical reasoning, but rather by the EMOTIONAL responses of the audience.

    Accordingly, I suggest that in our writing we speak of the pro-freedom side of the debate and the anti-freedom side, or the suppressionist side of it.

    Freely speak of government DISCRIMINATING as to which citizen can defend his life and who is screwed out of his constitutional right to defend his life from the violence of man or beast.

    Instead of speaking of "strict" gun control, refer to "severe" or "oppressive" or "harsh" or "intimidating" gun control that results in effective loss of citizen's rights of self defense. Remember that "gun control" is victim disarmament.

    Remember that guns are life-saving emergency equipment.

    Remember that gun control is O.S.H.A. (US Labor Dept. Occupational Safety and Health Administration) for violent criminals protecting them on-the-jobfrom the defenses of their victims.

    U can raise the question:

    " If criminals are willing to ignore the laws against ROBBERY;
    if criminals are willing to disregard the laws against MURDER,
    HOW can we convince them to OBEY gun control laws ? "

    U can refer to the plaintive and futile appeals for help from Kitty Genovese as she was being stabbed to death for about an hour, in NYC, when noone even called police. U can refer to Reginald Denny being stomped in the streets of California on national TV for maybe 45 minutes (??) with no help from police who fled the scene.

    These are some of the possibilties.

    Use them in good health and in freedom

    David
    Welcome to the forum, David. A very insightful and straight forward 1st post, by the way. I liked it a lot and would be very interested to read your paper. Again, welcome and don't let anyone discourage you from posting.

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    BobCav wrote:
    David, thanks for the reply. I understood what you were saying. Often we get a lot of fence-sitters and compromisers, as well as the occasional anti-gun or anti-OC trolls,that hop on here to spout their "manifesto" for their first post and then leave. Glad you're not one of them!

    I agree, the impassionedargument is often the only one that will stir the soul of another, motivating and inspiringthose who would listento find thatgreatness that lies deep within. It is far more effective thanhard statistical data and it is my style of choice. It's also a very effective and efficientsorting tool!

    "There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the long run the sword will always be conquered by the spirit." - Napoleon Bonaparte

    I grew up in the northern provinces of the DPRNJ myself (Bergen Kounty - Demokratic Peoples Republik of New Jersey) and only escaped to join the Navy in 84. I only go back visit my family on "VisitingDays" and bringcare packages from the outside world.

    It's funny you mentioned OSHA. I can certainly understand safety as it was paramount in the Navy and saved my ass many times. Enginerooms are inherently deadly places andthere's no pointin being careless.My last job was a Quality Manager (ISO 9000-2001 Certified Internal Auditor) andDivisional Safety Officer (OSHA 30 hr. Certified). I always HATED the Safety Guy and now I was he! Having been through the OSHA course withmy head in that damn book all the time, I soon realized that thoughsomeof it does make sense in an industrial environment, there is so much more that is just plain RIDICULOUS! It seemed to me to be nothing more than the intentional and methodical micromanagement and legislation of common sense andgovernmental interference withDarwinian natural selection!

    I say remove all the safety devices and warning labels from EVERYTHING and let the problem take care of itself!

    A retired New York Lawyer, huh? Always good to have a friend inside the "occupied territory"!I'd be very interested in reading that paper you wrote. Would you post it here for all to read?

    What is your take of Lord Bloomberg's political ambitions and his Coalition of Mayors Against Illegal Guns?

    My pleasure, Bob. I will be eager to join in Napoleon 's observation. I see no room for compromise in the 2A. As someone put it: if you have a yard sale, you can negotiate and compromise on the price ofold furniture, but not on whether your mother or your child is for sale. Your choice of argument depends upon to whom it is addressed, whether it is a court of law or an informal group of laymen.

    Incidentally, tho I have not been to Reno, I LOVE Las Vegas ! I 've had very joyful times there; the air is rife with FREEDOM ! To MY mind, the only thing wrong with it is that I don 't go there enuf.

    As to OSHA, I believe that we shud all Occupy our time with being Safe and Healthy with all necessary emergency equipment at hand. As someone put it: " its better to HAVE a gun and not NEED it, than to NEED a gun and not HAVE it. " I love your vu on industrial Darwinism !

    I 'll be very happy to post my paper here, but I saw some notation of a limit on the number of available characters (if I remember correctly); is there room for 8 pages of single spaced print ?

    As to the occupied territory, I am hopeful that with the aid of the USSC, the Supreme Law of the Land will be applied as the Founders intended, wiping out all interference with civilian possession of defensiveguns. On the Aristotelian Square Of Logical Opposition, the 2A is a "universal negative" proposition: "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED " [emphasis added] Therefore, if it IS infringed in any degree, however slight, then the Supreme Law of the Land has been violated. The USSC has made it clear that any law inconsistent with the Constitution is null and void.


    I 'm sure that Bloomberg wishes to aggregate as much political power as he can. I don 't see much of a future for him, politically. I don 't believe that he 'll run for the presidency. If he did, he 'd be the antithesis of Ross Perot, splitting the anti-freedom electorate.


    David

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    BobCav wrote:
    David, happy to reformat for you. PM sent!
    Bob,

    has it arrived ?

    I sent myself a CC thereof, but I did not receive it.

    David

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    David, no sir, it hasn't arrived, but I did get your PM's. I'll keep a watch for it and I'll PM you a different e-mail address just in case.



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    We will persist !

    Success is inevitable !!!

    I also have other KABA material in which u might be interested.

    I m going to check in, now.

    A friend of mine has to go to court tomorrow,

    and I'm going to accompany him.

    David

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