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Thread: Laser grips

  1. #1
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    Hi, I've been lurking around here for a while and finally had a question to ask all of you. I've considered getting a set of Crimson Trace laser grips for my Kimber Pro Carry II but they are a bit pricey, is it worth it? How much faster are they to get on target, and how well do they hold their zero? Thanks.

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    Grenadier wrote:
    Hi, I've been lurking around here for a while and finally had a question to ask all of you. I've considered getting a set of Crimson Trace laser grips for my Kimber Pro Carry II but they are a bit pricey, is it worth it? How much faster are they to get on target, and how well do they hold their zero? Thanks.
    No,they aren't worth it. While you are screwing around trying to get your lazer dot on your target, he will pop you and win the fight. To the pros that know they don't use them. Point and shot works, learn it and practice it.

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    I have a set.

    I love 'em.

    Thebig, unexpected benefit is dryfire training. That little dot will tell you very clearly whether you move the gun during the trigger pull.

    I don't know that getting on target is any faster. Perhaps slightly. I'm thinking anybody who can get a good sight picture quickly with lots of regular practice can probably do it just as quickly with iron sights as with a laser. Perhaps there is an apsect of distance where lasers become quicker than precise alignment of sights.

    As I understand it, one advantage is that during a fight, you're going to have your attention locked on the threat. Apparently lots of people do this. Using a laser lets you keep your attention where its going to be fixed anyway--on the target. Training would overcome this I would think.

    Another big advantage is that you no longer have to bring the sights to eye-level. You can fire from all sorts of positions that previously took instinct to get the gun pointed at the right place.

    No problems holding zero.

    Let me see if I can remember where I got a set on-line at a discount. If I can, I'll post it here for you.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    I have a set.

    I love 'em.

    Thebig, unexpected benefit is dryfire training. That little dot will tell you very clearly whether you move the gun during the trigger pull.

    I don't know that getting on target is any faster. Perhaps slightly. I'm thinking anybody who can get a good sight picture quickly with lots of regular practice can probably do it just as quickly with iron sights as with a laser. Perhaps there is an apsect of distance where lasers become quicker than precise alignment of sights.

    As I understand it, one advantage is that during a fight, you're going to have your attention locked on the threat. Apparently lots of people do this. Using a laser lets you keep your attention where its going to be fixed anyway--on the target. Training would overcome this I would think.

    Another big advantage is that you no longer have to bring the sights to eye-level. You can fire from all sorts of positions that previously took instinct to get the gun pointed at the right place.

    No problems holding zero.

    Let me see if I can remember where I got a set on-line at a discount. If I can, I'll post it here for you.
    Never been in combat, have you?

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    SNIP Never been in combat, have you?
    No. I was lucky enough to serve during a time of relative calm and peace.

    It would help a little if you could use your experience to educate us. As opposed to asking questions that contribute little wisdom to the discussion.

    Now that I've bitched back, I'm done with it.

    I would sincerely like to benefit from your experience in regard to this thread's discussion. If you're willing to share it.

    Please, sir.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    SNIP Never been in combat, have you?
    No. I was lucky enough to serve during a time of relative calm and peace.

    It would help a little if you could use your experience to educate us. As opposed to asking questions that contribute little wisdom to the discussion.

    Now that I've bitched back, I'm done with it.

    I would sincerely like to benefit from your experience in regard to this thread's discussion. If you're willing to share it.

    Please, sir.
    I already did, but you posted your lack of knowledge anyway.

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    I understood Bear pretty plain. Unless you are a pro that knows how to use them, they are hard to get on target and while you are doing that, the BG will kill you.

    From my research that has been born out. Great if you want to practice at home or on the range, but unless you dedicate yourself to learning that new style of shooting, they can be problematic... Great tool if you know how to use it properly. Personally I have a hard enough time hitting what I aim at sometimes anyhow without adding electronic doo dads to the mix.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    SNIP I already did, but you posted your lack of knowledge anyway.
    I seewhat happened.

    I wasn't trying to contradict you when I posted.

    When I clicked the "REPLY" button to compose my post, there were no other posts, just the original post. Yours wasn't up yet.

    I composed mine, hit send, and when it changed screens, there was yours ahead of mine.

    Basically your post arrived while I was still composing mine.



    As for myself, I haven't experienced any trouble gettingthe laser dot on the target quickly. I won't say anybodyelse won't have trouble.

    For myself, I can get the laser dot on the target as or perhaps slightly faster than I could align the sights. I haven't used a timer to test it, so this is an entirely subjective report.

    I use the laser on a short-barrel .357 magnum. With the short sight radius, eventiny errors in sight alignment throws bullets all over the place at any appreciable distance to the target. Including misses. Which I just cannot responsibly tolerate in an urban setting. With the laser I can keep them all inside the eight ring on a full size silohuette (B26?) out to about, maybe 45' firing as fast as I can get down from recoil. Further out and I start dropping a few into the seven ring. With the iron sights, getting down from recoilis only the first step. Getting those sights aligned seemingly perfectly was the next thing. It took forever (seemingly) toget the sights aligned well enough that I felt confident I wasn't going to miss the target entirely. Of course, I'm talking about a front sight blade and a doggoAfrican Americanove in the top strap for a rear sight. Darnedest hard-to-aquire and align sight set-up I've ever come across. Not that I have come across a lot. Its just really difficult for me to align the sightswell enoughand quickly for a shot at any appreciable distance.

    The laser solved that.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I understood Bear pretty plain. Unless you are a pro that knows how to use them, they are hard to get on target and while you are doing that, the BG will kill you.

    From my research that has been born out. Great if you want to practice at home or on the range, but unless you dedicate yourself to learning that new style of shooting, they can be problematic... Great tool if you know how to use it properly. Personally I have a hard enough time hitting what I aim at sometimes anyhow without adding electronic doo dads to the mix.
    Tell me more. What research? The only info I have is a little thin--my own exerience, a very few other user comments, and Crimson Trace's own promotional reports that police agencies that use them experiencedimpressive increases in hits on bad guys compared to the number of misses and shots fired. Of course, promotional information is a little suspect.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    i have a set on my micro-compact... i figure there are a nice auxilary sighting system (not to replace, but to augment) to the iron sights. I practice with the iron, but know that red laser is there.

    plus, it's just neat.

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    Mostly with some guys who used the things and a couple of GI's. I'm not willing to put up with the learning curve to use the dang things, nor do I want electronic wizardry hanging from my gun. I have iron sights and the learning curve for that. Anything else that can fail is a hinderance. Mostly old time shooters have cautioned me against them. So nothing I can set in stone, but more than a few guys who have seen the elephant... which is more than I have, so I tend to take their advice, plus I am pretty conservative about new fangled gew gaws :P myself.

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    Bear 45/70:you says that those who are "in the know" don't use them. I just got out of the Marine Corps where they do issue them, if the Marine grunts are not"in the know" regarding combat then I don't know who is. I havecarried an issued M9 with laser grips, though notvery oftenthat is why I ask. Thankfully I never had to use it in a fight, and am seeking advice from those with more expirience than myself. Thanks again for the help.

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    We sell a lot of the Crimson Trace grips, and contrary to what Bear 45-70 says, the majority of the ones we sell are purchased by LEO's, and they use them.

    With the learning curve, if you shoot instinctively, keeping your eye on the target and bringing the gun into firing presentation, the dot just happens to be where you want it. ON TARGET.

    you do not shoot instinctively, the same thing will happen, although it will not be quite as quick.

    Kind of like shooting a shotgun... where you look and where you point just happen to be the same place. Strange isn't it?

    Either way, for most people that I have spoken with, they are faster target acquisition with the CT grips.

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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    We sell a lot of the Crimson Trace grips, and contrary to what Bear 45-70 says, the majority of the ones we sell are purchased by LEO's, and they use them.

    With the learning curve, if you shoot instinctively, keeping your eye on the target and bringing the gun into firing presentation, the dot just happens to be where you want it. ON TARGET.

    you do not shoot instinctively, the same thing will happen, although it will not be quite as quick.

    Kind of like shooting a shotgun... where you look and where you point just happen to be the same place. Strange isn't it?

    Either way, for most people that I have spoken with, they are faster target acquisition with the CT grips.
    I don't shoot instinctively and they annoy me personally, so maybe I tend to listen to those who vindicate my way of thought... at any rate it has been my experience that electronics screw up when you least want them too... :P

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    SNIP I don't shoot instinctively and they annoy me personally, so maybe I tend to listen to those who vindicate my way of thought... at any rate it has been my experience that electronics screw up when you least want them too... :P
    I think the real reason is because you run out of freeboard from collecting too many guns and don't want to fry expensive electronics in salt water. :P
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Grenadier wrote:
    Hi, I've been lurking around here for a while and finally had a question to ask all of you. I've considered getting a set of Crimson Trace laser grips for my Kimber Pro Carry II but they are a bit pricey, is it worth it? How much faster are they to get on target, and how well do they hold their zero? Thanks.
    I have a set on my Kimber Custom Tactical II as well as my Kahr K9. They are a bit pricey, but well worth it. During "perfect conditions" (daylight), they aren't any quicker than iron sights. Where I see the benefits during training is in a home defense situation, when it's dark, and I'm going around corners. I can keep my 1911 in a retention position near my hip, and let the flashlight in my off hand illuminate the area around the corner. All I have to do to follow up with a 200gr Hornady TAP, is put the red dot where I'd like it to go. THIS KEEPS MY EYES ON THE THREAT, NOT TRYING TO REFOCUS ON MY SIGHTS. I have trained with and w/out them. I don't recommend them for someone who can't shoot using iron sights, but as an extra tool, providing an extra option, I can really see the benefit. I have never had to readjust a set of LG's once I got them zeroed w/a specific carry/defense load.

    To those who think they are just a frill and have no real-world benefit: Crimson trace reports that LEO's involved in shootings w/Lasergrips are averaging about a 90% hit ratio, compared to less than 30% for those using traditional sights. I don't know about you, but I think that less stray bullets are a good thing if you ask me. The proof is in the pudding. http://crimsontrace.com/Default.aspx...ntrace.com/law


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    Grenadier wrote:
    Bear 45/70:you says that those who are "in the know" don't use them. I just got out of the Marine Corps where they do issue them, if the Marine grunts are not"in the know" regarding combat then I don't know who is. I havecarried an issued M9 with laser grips, though notvery oftenthat is why I ask. Thankfully I never had to use it in a fight, and am seeking advice from those with more expirience than myself. Thanks again for the help.
    I am on a close person friendship level with several present and retired Spec Ops troops. My person CQC instructor is a decorated, disables, retired Seal, besides being a long time close personal friend. None use them or will use, even though they could if it helped and Curt won't teach you if you have one on your gun. Is that good enough? If not, the explaination given is that your eyes leave your target to acquire the Lazer dot, then you have to reacquire the target and in the mean time you get to die if your target is semi compentent. FYI, regular Marines are not now nor never have been Spec Ops troops.

    For Dr Triggers, I have been a competetive Shotgun shooter, Sporting Clays and Trap, which I shoot or practice at least oncea week, usually more counting practice,for years and using a lazer is nothing at all like shooting clay birds and a lazer would lower your scores way down. You watch the target only and if you don't, you miss, everytime.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    ......the explaination given is that your eyes leave your target to acquire the Lazer dot, then you have to reacquire the target.
    Then explain to us howiron sights work? When you should be focusing on the front sight, wouldn't that be having "your eyes leave the target?"

    Peripheral vision allows me to keep my eyes ON THE TARGET (and his subsequent actions) to act accordingly, while at the same time moving the dot onto the target.

    I'll agree that they have no real use for cardtable distances, but anything 15 feet and beyond, while under stress and adrenaline rush, and when one could already be on the ground injured, or have dirt in their eyes, or a thousand other circumstances that would impair the ability to use the Weaver stance and a clear sight picture, they can sure come in handy.

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    G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    ......the explaination given is that your eyes leave your target to acquire the Lazer dot, then you have to reacquire the target.
    Then explain to us howiron sights work? When you should be focusing on the front sight, wouldn't that be having "your eyes leave the target?"

    Peripheral vision allows me to keep my eyes ON THE TARGET (and his subsequent actions) to act accordingly, while at the same time moving the dot onto the target.

    I'll agree that they have no real use for cardtable distances, but anything 15 feet and beyond, while under stress and adrenaline rush, and when one could already be on the ground injured, or have dirt in their eyes, or a thousand other circumstances that would impair the ability to use the Weaver stance and a clear sight picture, they can sure come in handy.
    The SEALs in an CQC situation, you know quick draw and shoot,don't use the sights on their handguns. Its called point and shoot, like pointing your finger and your target is center of mass and you double tap. When you shoot, you don't raise the gun to eye level, ever. You draw and shoot from gut level, elbow braced against you bodyand your eyes never leave the target, everand the weapon never gets between your eyes and the target. Sights are for soldiers, huntersand amatuers, not shooters and looters.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    The SEALs in an CQC situation, you know quick draw and shoot,don't use the sights on their handguns.
    You're right, they use their carbines and subguns (which happen to have sights on them).
    Its called point and shoot, like pointing your finger and your target is center of mass and you double tap. When you shoot, you don't raise the gun to eye level, ever. You draw and shoot from gut level, elbow braced against you bodyand your eyes never leave the target, everand the weapon never gets between your eyes and the target. Sights are for soldiers, huntersand amatuers, not shooters and looters.
    I guess you're right, considering EVERY LE Agency in the country teaches "point shooting" and nothing else, huh, they even grind the sights off of their duty weapons, because the gun should never come between you and the target.

    Bear, once again, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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    I reckon all this applies to the LaserMax as well? I never have been a big fan of the Crimson Trace because of the fact that I index high and end up blocking the laser.

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    G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    The SEALs in an CQC situation, you know quick draw and shoot,don't use the sights on their handguns.
    You're right, they use their carbines and subguns (which happen to have sights on them).
    Its called point and shoot, like pointing your finger and your target is center of mass and you double tap. When you shoot, you don't raise the gun to eye level, ever. You draw and shoot from gut level, elbow braced against you bodyand your eyes never leave the target, everand the weapon never gets between your eyes and the target. Sights are for soldiers, huntersand amatuers, not shooters and looters.
    I guess you're right, considering EVERY LE Agency in the country teaches "point shooting" and nothing else, huh, they even grind the sights off of their duty weapons, because the gun should never come between you and the target.

    Bear, once again, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
    Oh yeah, cops are the cream of the crop when it comes to shooters and looter! As a whole cops are the worse bunch of shooters in the world. They've been known to fire as many as 30+ rounds without hitting any intended targets. That's why you think lazers sights are the way to go. It's your life, waste it anyway you want.

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    ATCer wrote:
    I reckon all this applies to the LaserMax as well? I never have been a big fan of the Crimson Trace because of the fact that I index high and end up blocking the laser.
    I dont know about all of lasermax's offerings, but their guide rod lasers are POS's from my experience. Here's a write up I just did on xdtalk.com:

    I had a Lasermax guide rod laser installed. **HAD**. It was the biggest $300 peice of crap I've ever seen. It is the best mod you can possibly do, if you want to convert your gun from a military grade weapon, to a cheaply built range toy.

    The spring rates didn't feel nearly the same as stock. They felt much weaker.

    The take down lever looks like a 9 year old in Malaysia machined it. Seriously. It doesn't even sit level on the gun, is not designed as well as the original, has marks around the switch indentation that look like it was beat all to hell with a punch, and the coloring does not match the rest of the XD.

    The switch itself is very hard to activate. It just doesn't activate reliably when unholstering.

    The guide rod backing is made out of cheap, thin, plastic. It fits very loosely in the gun and after racking a few times, mine would fall out of the slide.

    Yeah, the laser is pretty acurate, but so is the laser pointer I got out of the box of honey-comb. This means that the laser would be fun at the range, but not dependable enough for a military grade weapon in daily carry. It's just not up to par.


    I returned my Lasermax and will practice my aiming until the crimson trace comes out for the .45 ACP this summer. Hopefully I will like that better.




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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    That's why you think lazers sights are the way to go. It's your life, waste it anyway you want.
    First, learn how to spell "laser." And second, actually, no. I think lasers are the "way to go" in some situations where benefit can be gained in using them where no other option would amount to the same benefit.

    Just becausesome new product or techniquewasn't around when you were "in the sh*%" doesn't meanthat there'sno benefit to begained by implementing it. If that were the case, maybe we should have all of our guys in Iraq and Afganistan turn in their M4s for muskets, eh?

    After all, computers weren't around when you were doing homework, but you decided to buy one of those, and even though you haven't decided to learn how to use it correctly, due to numerous spelling and grammatical errors in almost every single post, you still do use it.

    There's nothing wrong with using a new tool, once it's been proven, and you've dedicated the time to learn how to use it properly. Lasergrips are no exception.

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    Bear, read my post again, and this time READ it...I did not say anything about putting a laser on a shotgun, but referenced pointing and where you point is where your eyes and shot will go. just like you said in your post {snip attached)



    The SEALs in an CQC situation, you know quick draw and shoot,don't use the sights on their handguns. Its called point and shoot, like pointing your finger and your target is center of mass and you double tap.

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