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Laser grips
- Thread starter Grenadier
- Start date
Bear 45/70
Regular Member
imported post
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
As a whole cops are the worse bunch of shooters in the world. They've been known to fire as many as 30+ rounds without hitting any intended targets. That's why you think lazers sights are the way to go. It's your life, waste it anyway you want.
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
Oh yeah, cops are the cream of the crop when it comes to shooters and looter!
cut_cutta
Regular Member
imported post
ATCer wrote:
I dont know about all of lasermax's offerings, but their guide rod lasers are POS's from my experience. Here's a write up I just did on xdtalk.com:
I had a Lasermax guide rod laser installed. **HAD**. It was the biggest $300 peice of crap I've ever seen. It is the best mod you can possibly do, if you want to convert your gun from a military grade weapon, to a cheaply built range toy.
The spring rates didn't feel nearly the same as stock. They felt much weaker.
The take down lever looks like a 9 year old in Malaysia machined it. Seriously. It doesn't even sit level on the gun, is not designed as well as the original, has marks around the switch indentation that look like it was beat all to hell with a punch, and the coloring does not match the rest of the XD.
The switch itself is very hard to activate. It just doesn't activate reliably when unholstering.
The guide rod backing is made out of cheap, thin, plastic. It fits very loosely in the gun and after racking a few times, mine would fall out of the slide.
Yeah, the laser is pretty acurate, but so is the laser pointer I got out of the box of honey-comb. This means that the laser would be fun at the range, but not dependable enough for a military grade weapon in daily carry. It's just not up to par.
I returned my Lasermax and will practice my aiming until the crimson trace comes out for the .45 ACP this summer. Hopefully I will like that better.
ATCer wrote:
I dont know about all of lasermax's offerings, but their guide rod lasers are POS's from my experience. Here's a write up I just did on xdtalk.com:
I had a Lasermax guide rod laser installed. **HAD**. It was the biggest $300 peice of crap I've ever seen. It is the best mod you can possibly do, if you want to convert your gun from a military grade weapon, to a cheaply built range toy.
The spring rates didn't feel nearly the same as stock. They felt much weaker.
The take down lever looks like a 9 year old in Malaysia machined it. Seriously. It doesn't even sit level on the gun, is not designed as well as the original, has marks around the switch indentation that look like it was beat all to hell with a punch, and the coloring does not match the rest of the XD.
The switch itself is very hard to activate. It just doesn't activate reliably when unholstering.
The guide rod backing is made out of cheap, thin, plastic. It fits very loosely in the gun and after racking a few times, mine would fall out of the slide.
Yeah, the laser is pretty acurate, but so is the laser pointer I got out of the box of honey-comb. This means that the laser would be fun at the range, but not dependable enough for a military grade weapon in daily carry. It's just not up to par.
I returned my Lasermax and will practice my aiming until the crimson trace comes out for the .45 ACP this summer. Hopefully I will like that better.
G20-IWB24/7
Regular Member
imported post
Bear 45/70 wrote:
Just becausesome new product or techniquewasn't around when you were "in the sh*%" doesn't meanthat there'sno benefit to begained by implementing it. If that were the case, maybe we should have all of our guys in Iraq and Afganistan turn in their M4s for muskets, eh?
After all, computers weren't around when you were doing homework, but you decided to buy one of those, and even though you haven't decided to learn how to use it correctly, due to numerous spelling and grammatical errors in almost every single post, you still do use it.
There's nothing wrong with using a new tool, once it's been proven, and you've dedicated the time to learn how to use it properly. Lasergrips are no exception.
Bear 45/70 wrote:
First, learn how to spell "laser." And second, actually, no. I think lasers are the "way to go" in some situations where benefit can be gained in using them where no other option would amount to the same benefit.That's why you think lazers sights are the way to go. It's your life, waste it anyway you want.
Just becausesome new product or techniquewasn't around when you were "in the sh*%" doesn't meanthat there'sno benefit to begained by implementing it. If that were the case, maybe we should have all of our guys in Iraq and Afganistan turn in their M4s for muskets, eh?
After all, computers weren't around when you were doing homework, but you decided to buy one of those, and even though you haven't decided to learn how to use it correctly, due to numerous spelling and grammatical errors in almost every single post, you still do use it.
There's nothing wrong with using a new tool, once it's been proven, and you've dedicated the time to learn how to use it properly. Lasergrips are no exception.
Trigger Dr
Regular Member
imported post
Bear, read my post again, and this time READ it...I did not say anything about putting a laser on a shotgun, but referenced pointing and where you point is where your eyes and shot will go. just like you said in your post {snip attached)
The SEALs in an CQC situation, you know quick draw and shoot,don't use the sights on their handguns. Its called point and shoot, like pointing your finger and your target is center of mass and you double tap.
Bear, read my post again, and this time READ it...I did not say anything about putting a laser on a shotgun, but referenced pointing and where you point is where your eyes and shot will go. just like you said in your post {snip attached)
The SEALs in an CQC situation, you know quick draw and shoot,don't use the sights on their handguns. Its called point and shoot, like pointing your finger and your target is center of mass and you double tap.
Bear 45/70
Regular Member
imported post
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
Your argument stinks so you now want to make it about spelling. IMHO, having carried a POS M16 in combat and had it crap out regularly, our military would be better off without the M-16 thru M-4, whichBTW they never wanted in the first place but had forced on them by Sec. of Defense McNamara. So please continue to be a moron, it's your right and I would never deny your right to do something stupid, like getting your azz shot if you ever have to shoot to save your life. You obviously know more than a combat veteran and shooter with over 50 years of experience.Bear 45/70 wrote:First, learn how to spell "laser." And second, actually, no. I think lasers are the "way to go" in some situations where benefit can be gained in using them where no other option would amount to the same benefit.That's why you think lazers sights are the way to go. It's your life, waste it anyway you want.
Just becausesome new product or techniquewasn't around when you were "in the sh*%" doesn't meanthat there'sno benefit to begained by implementing it. If that were the case, maybe we should have all of our guys in Iraq and Afganistan turn in their M4s for muskets, eh?
After all, computers weren't around when you were doing homework, but you decided to buy one of those, and even though you haven't decided to learn how to use it correctly, due to numerous spelling and grammatical errors in almost every single post, you still do use it.
There's nothing wrong with using a new tool, once it's been proven, and you've dedicated the time to learn how to use it properly. Lasergrips are no exception.
Bear 45/70
Regular Member
imported post
Trigger Dr wrote:
Trigger Dr wrote:
Sorry, I miss read it to say that a laser workedlike you used a shotgun.
911Boss
Member
imported post
I always laugh at the reasons folks poo-poo lasers. I'll give you input based on my experience actually USING them, as opposed to just dismissing them (and condeming anyone considering them) for all the reasons someone told me about.
I have had at one time or another6 different handguns with the CTC laser grips. Currently my carry weapon (SW M&P 9c)and my wifes (Ruger SP101)both wear them.My house gun carries a rail mounted light/laser combo (Streamlight TLR-2). The CTC grips hold their zero extremely well. Once set I have never had to make any adjustments, even though I remove them to clean my guns replace them afterwards.My experience is they are very durable and CTC has an outstanding reputation for customer service. Of the6 sets I've owned, I had one problem that I can blame on them, and one problem that was my fault.
Here are the ones I've owned, the time, and the round counts with the laser grips installed. The P229, P226, P239 and Glock 33 have all been sold. Some with the laser, some I sold the lasers seperate. For the lasers I sold, I generally got about 80%+of what I paid for them. They hold their value well.
P229- My first set of CTC grips. I owned them for approximately 1 1/2 years, approx 2000 rounds fired with them- no problems, except the one I caused. I bought this gun used at a pawn shop and ithad the laser grips on it. In fact the lasers are what interested me and made the gun such a bargain. After firing it the first time, I was cleaning it and stuffed a Q-tip in the aperture. I manged to pop the lens out which resulted in a cresent shaped beam that had about a 2-3" length when hitting an object 15' away. I was pretty pissed at myself and called CTC to see what repair would cost. I clearly explained to them what happened and that I bought theseused and I had no idea of their history. CTC told me to send them down and they would be repaired at no charge. I sent them off and one week to the day later, I had a package from CTC. They did not repair them, they sent me a replacement set, additionally they included a yser manual (which I did not have), adjustment tools, and cleaning swabs. All it cost me was the postage to send them in to CTC. CTC paid the postage to send me the replacement. My experience with this set made me a believer in both lasers and CTC.
P226- Owned for just under2 years, 1200 rounds, no problems.
P239- Owned just under 1 year, 700 rounds, no problems.
Ruger SP101- Wifes carry gun for2+ years, 500+ rounds, no problems.
Glock 33- Daily carry gun for over 2 years, 3500 rounds, 1 problem. This gun is .357Sig cal, a pretty violent round in such a small package. After about 18 months and 2000+ rounds, I noticed that the laser would go "off" as the gun fired, then come back on as I recovered from the recoil. As I tried to figure out what was going onI examed the grips and found the the switch mounting had failed. With the recoil, it moved and the contacts opened. Yes, a failure. I would like to note though, that they still worked, they just flicked off during recoil. I sent them off to CTC and they were repaired and returned in less than 10 days.
SW M&P9c- New carry gun to replace the Glock, just installed last month. 250 rounds, no problems. I am quickly becoming a fan of the M&P's, as ammo prices climb I decided to move back to 9mm instead of the pricey .357sig. After putting 700 rounds through my 9c without a single failure, It took over the carry duty from my Glock. Glock was sold with the laser attached and about 2 weeks ago I put a brand new CTC on the M&P. First trip to the range was 250 trouble free rounds.
Add that all up and I have 8.5 years and over 8000 rounds experience with them and just a single failure, which I note again, did not render them unusable. That is a pretty good track record as far as I am concerned. I replace the batteries twice a year (oh, and with the "free batteries for life" program I have never had to buy batteries for them).
What about me, who am I ? I am a 9 year Marine Corps veteran with 30 years of shooting experience. WA. CPL holder for 17 years. NRA Life Member (Endowment) for over 15 years. While not commisioned, I work for a LE agency and am familiar with police tactics. I have attended my shareof defensive pistol training, anddone a little IDPA.That said, I feel I am qualified to speak on the matter both as a shooter and someone with laser experience.
Do they replace iron sights? No, you need to be skilled in the basics first. Are they "right" for every situation? No, but if they aren't right, they also don't hinder regular sights or point shooting if you so desire. Can they be a benefit in some situations? SURE. Why not have one more tool in the box? I'll take every advantage I can get.
"Point shooting" can be very useful under the right circumstances and if you have had the ability to train and become proficient. That said, most people aren't able to practice to the point where they will become proficient. Few ranges allow drawing from a holster, let alone shooting from the hip. Even if you do become proficient, it will be useless to you in certain circumstances.
For the "average" person, your best chance of survival is to present a poor target to the threat while getting off some effective shots.In a street combat situation, you should be moving and going for cover/concealment. Standing in one place is the surest way to become a statistic. This ain't the old west where you face off and draw in the street. "Effective" doesn't necessarily mean good sight alignment/sight picture, it means you have a high level of confidence they are going to go where they need to. You might find yourself shooting from the hip, shooting from around an object, shooting while running, turning around and shooting over your shoulder. Regardless, chances are however you do it, you will be looking at the threat. As you look at the threat, seeing that red dot on his chest lets you know that you are on target.
In a combat situation you are going tofocus on the threat. It is a physiological response. Contrary to another post, you don't look for the dot and then move it to the target. While you are focused on the target, with the tunnel vision that occurs, you naturally point your weapon to where you are looking. It is an almost automatic eye-hand coordination (which happens to also be the basis for point-shooting). As your weapon comes to bear,you will clearly see that dot when it is on target. It is a very positive feedback and provides the mental "green light" for trigger squeeze.
As another post pointed out, for dry fire and trigger control practice they are extremely beneficial. The laser isn't dancing around on it's own, that is your twitchy hand and jerky trigger pull. You just get to see for a change how much your gun moves as you work the trigger. I love when someone complains about how much the dot jerks around, then when I hold the gun it moves less than my Aunt Ethel when Ohpra is on.
Real world police gunfight data shows a huge improvement in the hit ratio of officers equipped with them. I haven't seen ANY data where they were determined to be a detriment or get someone "killed". I don't get out to Union too often, so I don't know much about that combat theater, but I do know that in my life and area of operation, the threats I will face aremuch more similar to those that police officers facethan what a Seal Team faces clearing a hard target to rescue hostages. What works in one environment, doesn't necessarily do as well in another. I want to gear my training and response to what I am most likely to face.
There is just something about technology that sets offgrumpy old farts. In my motorcycle group theybitch about how they don't need a GPS and they are crap because maps still work, and how they'll break and then you're screwed. In the gun world theybitch about Lasers being crap and they aren't needed for any number of reasons. "They will fail" Shit, any piece of machinery can fail. With that logic the old coots shouldn't be using maps OR guns, they should be using celestial navigation and throwing rocks.
My experience has been that blowhards who spout absolutes and wax nostalgic on the good ole days tend to be limited in their abilities to grow, evolve, learn, and understand new things. Funny how some of those most verbal against them have never even used them. My personal experience has been that 6 out of 8 "anti's" changed their mind once they actually used one, and the two that don't are just to o stubborn to admit they were wrong.
Are they magic? No, do they have a use and purpose? Hell yes.
I always laugh at the reasons folks poo-poo lasers. I'll give you input based on my experience actually USING them, as opposed to just dismissing them (and condeming anyone considering them) for all the reasons someone told me about.
I have had at one time or another6 different handguns with the CTC laser grips. Currently my carry weapon (SW M&P 9c)and my wifes (Ruger SP101)both wear them.My house gun carries a rail mounted light/laser combo (Streamlight TLR-2). The CTC grips hold their zero extremely well. Once set I have never had to make any adjustments, even though I remove them to clean my guns replace them afterwards.My experience is they are very durable and CTC has an outstanding reputation for customer service. Of the6 sets I've owned, I had one problem that I can blame on them, and one problem that was my fault.
Here are the ones I've owned, the time, and the round counts with the laser grips installed. The P229, P226, P239 and Glock 33 have all been sold. Some with the laser, some I sold the lasers seperate. For the lasers I sold, I generally got about 80%+of what I paid for them. They hold their value well.
P229- My first set of CTC grips. I owned them for approximately 1 1/2 years, approx 2000 rounds fired with them- no problems, except the one I caused. I bought this gun used at a pawn shop and ithad the laser grips on it. In fact the lasers are what interested me and made the gun such a bargain. After firing it the first time, I was cleaning it and stuffed a Q-tip in the aperture. I manged to pop the lens out which resulted in a cresent shaped beam that had about a 2-3" length when hitting an object 15' away. I was pretty pissed at myself and called CTC to see what repair would cost. I clearly explained to them what happened and that I bought theseused and I had no idea of their history. CTC told me to send them down and they would be repaired at no charge. I sent them off and one week to the day later, I had a package from CTC. They did not repair them, they sent me a replacement set, additionally they included a yser manual (which I did not have), adjustment tools, and cleaning swabs. All it cost me was the postage to send them in to CTC. CTC paid the postage to send me the replacement. My experience with this set made me a believer in both lasers and CTC.
P226- Owned for just under2 years, 1200 rounds, no problems.
P239- Owned just under 1 year, 700 rounds, no problems.
Ruger SP101- Wifes carry gun for2+ years, 500+ rounds, no problems.
Glock 33- Daily carry gun for over 2 years, 3500 rounds, 1 problem. This gun is .357Sig cal, a pretty violent round in such a small package. After about 18 months and 2000+ rounds, I noticed that the laser would go "off" as the gun fired, then come back on as I recovered from the recoil. As I tried to figure out what was going onI examed the grips and found the the switch mounting had failed. With the recoil, it moved and the contacts opened. Yes, a failure. I would like to note though, that they still worked, they just flicked off during recoil. I sent them off to CTC and they were repaired and returned in less than 10 days.
SW M&P9c- New carry gun to replace the Glock, just installed last month. 250 rounds, no problems. I am quickly becoming a fan of the M&P's, as ammo prices climb I decided to move back to 9mm instead of the pricey .357sig. After putting 700 rounds through my 9c without a single failure, It took over the carry duty from my Glock. Glock was sold with the laser attached and about 2 weeks ago I put a brand new CTC on the M&P. First trip to the range was 250 trouble free rounds.
Add that all up and I have 8.5 years and over 8000 rounds experience with them and just a single failure, which I note again, did not render them unusable. That is a pretty good track record as far as I am concerned. I replace the batteries twice a year (oh, and with the "free batteries for life" program I have never had to buy batteries for them).
What about me, who am I ? I am a 9 year Marine Corps veteran with 30 years of shooting experience. WA. CPL holder for 17 years. NRA Life Member (Endowment) for over 15 years. While not commisioned, I work for a LE agency and am familiar with police tactics. I have attended my shareof defensive pistol training, anddone a little IDPA.That said, I feel I am qualified to speak on the matter both as a shooter and someone with laser experience.
Do they replace iron sights? No, you need to be skilled in the basics first. Are they "right" for every situation? No, but if they aren't right, they also don't hinder regular sights or point shooting if you so desire. Can they be a benefit in some situations? SURE. Why not have one more tool in the box? I'll take every advantage I can get.
"Point shooting" can be very useful under the right circumstances and if you have had the ability to train and become proficient. That said, most people aren't able to practice to the point where they will become proficient. Few ranges allow drawing from a holster, let alone shooting from the hip. Even if you do become proficient, it will be useless to you in certain circumstances.
For the "average" person, your best chance of survival is to present a poor target to the threat while getting off some effective shots.In a street combat situation, you should be moving and going for cover/concealment. Standing in one place is the surest way to become a statistic. This ain't the old west where you face off and draw in the street. "Effective" doesn't necessarily mean good sight alignment/sight picture, it means you have a high level of confidence they are going to go where they need to. You might find yourself shooting from the hip, shooting from around an object, shooting while running, turning around and shooting over your shoulder. Regardless, chances are however you do it, you will be looking at the threat. As you look at the threat, seeing that red dot on his chest lets you know that you are on target.
In a combat situation you are going tofocus on the threat. It is a physiological response. Contrary to another post, you don't look for the dot and then move it to the target. While you are focused on the target, with the tunnel vision that occurs, you naturally point your weapon to where you are looking. It is an almost automatic eye-hand coordination (which happens to also be the basis for point-shooting). As your weapon comes to bear,you will clearly see that dot when it is on target. It is a very positive feedback and provides the mental "green light" for trigger squeeze.
As another post pointed out, for dry fire and trigger control practice they are extremely beneficial. The laser isn't dancing around on it's own, that is your twitchy hand and jerky trigger pull. You just get to see for a change how much your gun moves as you work the trigger. I love when someone complains about how much the dot jerks around, then when I hold the gun it moves less than my Aunt Ethel when Ohpra is on.
Real world police gunfight data shows a huge improvement in the hit ratio of officers equipped with them. I haven't seen ANY data where they were determined to be a detriment or get someone "killed". I don't get out to Union too often, so I don't know much about that combat theater, but I do know that in my life and area of operation, the threats I will face aremuch more similar to those that police officers facethan what a Seal Team faces clearing a hard target to rescue hostages. What works in one environment, doesn't necessarily do as well in another. I want to gear my training and response to what I am most likely to face.
There is just something about technology that sets offgrumpy old farts. In my motorcycle group theybitch about how they don't need a GPS and they are crap because maps still work, and how they'll break and then you're screwed. In the gun world theybitch about Lasers being crap and they aren't needed for any number of reasons. "They will fail" Shit, any piece of machinery can fail. With that logic the old coots shouldn't be using maps OR guns, they should be using celestial navigation and throwing rocks.
My experience has been that blowhards who spout absolutes and wax nostalgic on the good ole days tend to be limited in their abilities to grow, evolve, learn, and understand new things. Funny how some of those most verbal against them have never even used them. My personal experience has been that 6 out of 8 "anti's" changed their mind once they actually used one, and the two that don't are just to o stubborn to admit they were wrong.
Are they magic? No, do they have a use and purpose? Hell yes.
Trigger Dr
Regular Member
imported post
WELL SAID !!!!!
WELL SAID !!!!!
Tomahawk
Regular Member
imported post
911Boss wrote:
Look at that, folks. Lots of useful information, written in a friendly style, without calling anyone a "moron" or any other names, and without talking like a blowhard.
That is how a gentleman posts. May we see many more from 911Boss.
911Boss wrote:
Look at that, folks. Lots of useful information, written in a friendly style, without calling anyone a "moron" or any other names, and without talking like a blowhard.
That is how a gentleman posts. May we see many more from 911Boss.
Bear 45/70
Regular Member
imported post
911Boss wrote:
911Boss wrote:
How much combat experience do you have? If none with or without lasers andnone is in the real world your's is anopinion that gets people killed but like I said be my guest do what you want because you are an expert in your mind and if you get hurt or killed that's your problem and your families problem, not mine. Toys are fun at the range, when my life is on the line the toys stay on the shelf. Oh and you never heard of Murphy I see.
911Boss
Member
imported post
Admittedly I donot have actual combat experience. I really do consider myself unlucky for this reason and will actively go see if I can instigate a confrontation to resolve that character flaw.
While wewait for my trial by fire, let see what the accredited experts have to say...
"If I were a police officer today, I wouldn't consider going on patrol or walking a beat without a Crimson Trace equipped firearm."
Jim Cirillo: LE Trainer, Author, Retired NYPD and US Customs, 17-0 Record Against Armed Felons
"I consider my Lasergrips a key advantage that I would not go into harm's way without."
Ernest Langdon: President, Langdon Tactical Technologies, IDPA Champion and USMC Sniper Instructor
"For low light and dark, Lasergrips are a tool that I don't want to be without. By the time I had 300-400 rounds down range, I got to the point where I could trust that wherever the dot was, the bullet would go."
Mike Dalton: IDPA Steel Challenge Champion, Police Officer and Director of International Shootists Institute
"In the past, I had a total disregard for lasers. But, after testing and evaluating them, I now have Crimson Trace Lasergrips on my personal guns. When searching or clearing a room, the sidearm often needs to be held in a 'retention' firing position. With Lasergrips, I can use the flashlight, protect my handgun and sight my pistol at the same time. There is no need to lead with the handgun as many popular flashlight firing techniques require."
Ken Hackathorn: International Small Arms Instructor and Consultant
"I know what the front sight looks like, but in a CQB environment you never see your front sight. Why not superimpose a laser on your threat. I'm 50% faster coming out on target and can outrun my tritium sights by at least 20% in speed and accuracy with Lasergrips."
Todd Jarrett: World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer
"In my opinion, the S & W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
Colonel Rex Applegate
"I have Lasergrips installed on all of my duty/defensive sidearms and consider them to be an essential accessory. Lasergrips can save lives and reduce liability exposure."
Eugene Nielsen: Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor
"I carry a Lasergripped Model 442 as a backup gun....."
Massad Ayoob: World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
And then there is....
"I don't use them and you are stupid if you do. I'm a combat veteran and legend in my own mind"
Bear 45/70: Crotchity curmudgeon / Union WA. legend in own mind :cuss:
I am sure you will retort with some crap about how you don't "personally know" any of these folks and they are stoopid because they don't agree with you. I am sure you also will consider first hand accounts of police officers who believe the laser gave them them the edge that won the fight are just "flukes".
Anyone with limited exposure will recognize the names above (except for yours of course...) and all are held in high regard by the shooting/combat/competition/training communities (except for yours of course...). Of course by refusing to accept any expertise other than yourown and those who agree with you, you can fool yourself into thinking you are better than everyone else. How very sad.
It is obvious you are one of those cantankerous old bastards that has zero ability to understand anything but your own delusions. Talk smack, be a bully, try to intimidate. Just when was your last shoot out old man? What kind of flintlock did you use?
I dare you to point to one factual event where the use of a laser equipped gun got someone killed. Don't come back with a bunch of BS, find a fact. One single fact that a laser actually CAUSED the guy tolose. Not just had a laser and didn't win, but lost because of it.Quote your source.
Or how about posting names and references for all those close personal friends of your who are former Seals, CQB instructors, etc. so their credentialscan be examined or we can find their published works. Maybe some news reports of the carnage you left in your vast self-defense combat experience... :quirky
Admittedly I donot have actual combat experience. I really do consider myself unlucky for this reason and will actively go see if I can instigate a confrontation to resolve that character flaw.
While wewait for my trial by fire, let see what the accredited experts have to say...
"If I were a police officer today, I wouldn't consider going on patrol or walking a beat without a Crimson Trace equipped firearm."
Jim Cirillo: LE Trainer, Author, Retired NYPD and US Customs, 17-0 Record Against Armed Felons
"I consider my Lasergrips a key advantage that I would not go into harm's way without."
Ernest Langdon: President, Langdon Tactical Technologies, IDPA Champion and USMC Sniper Instructor
"For low light and dark, Lasergrips are a tool that I don't want to be without. By the time I had 300-400 rounds down range, I got to the point where I could trust that wherever the dot was, the bullet would go."
Mike Dalton: IDPA Steel Challenge Champion, Police Officer and Director of International Shootists Institute
"In the past, I had a total disregard for lasers. But, after testing and evaluating them, I now have Crimson Trace Lasergrips on my personal guns. When searching or clearing a room, the sidearm often needs to be held in a 'retention' firing position. With Lasergrips, I can use the flashlight, protect my handgun and sight my pistol at the same time. There is no need to lead with the handgun as many popular flashlight firing techniques require."
Ken Hackathorn: International Small Arms Instructor and Consultant
"I know what the front sight looks like, but in a CQB environment you never see your front sight. Why not superimpose a laser on your threat. I'm 50% faster coming out on target and can outrun my tritium sights by at least 20% in speed and accuracy with Lasergrips."
Todd Jarrett: World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer
"In my opinion, the S & W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
Colonel Rex Applegate
"I have Lasergrips installed on all of my duty/defensive sidearms and consider them to be an essential accessory. Lasergrips can save lives and reduce liability exposure."
Eugene Nielsen: Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor
"I carry a Lasergripped Model 442 as a backup gun....."
Massad Ayoob: World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
And then there is....
"I don't use them and you are stupid if you do. I'm a combat veteran and legend in my own mind"
Bear 45/70: Crotchity curmudgeon / Union WA. legend in own mind :cuss:
I am sure you will retort with some crap about how you don't "personally know" any of these folks and they are stoopid because they don't agree with you. I am sure you also will consider first hand accounts of police officers who believe the laser gave them them the edge that won the fight are just "flukes".
Anyone with limited exposure will recognize the names above (except for yours of course...) and all are held in high regard by the shooting/combat/competition/training communities (except for yours of course...). Of course by refusing to accept any expertise other than yourown and those who agree with you, you can fool yourself into thinking you are better than everyone else. How very sad.
It is obvious you are one of those cantankerous old bastards that has zero ability to understand anything but your own delusions. Talk smack, be a bully, try to intimidate. Just when was your last shoot out old man? What kind of flintlock did you use?
I dare you to point to one factual event where the use of a laser equipped gun got someone killed. Don't come back with a bunch of BS, find a fact. One single fact that a laser actually CAUSED the guy tolose. Not just had a laser and didn't win, but lost because of it.Quote your source.
Or how about posting names and references for all those close personal friends of your who are former Seals, CQB instructors, etc. so their credentialscan be examined or we can find their published works. Maybe some news reports of the carnage you left in your vast self-defense combat experience... :quirky
Bear 45/70
Regular Member
imported post
911Boss wrote:
911Boss wrote:
Hell, I'd say the same thing if I was paid to endorse it. Or my wages were paid by the rag I was writing for and the laser weenies were an advertiser. I know everyone belives what the writers in the gun rags say, because they are all gonna tell you the truth about everything. Crap you guys amaze me. Are you sure your aren't liberals pretending to be gun conservatives.IMG]http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/Bear-45-70/Emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/IMG]
911Boss
Member
imported post
Bear 45/70 wrote:
So you just publicly admitted to your own lack of integrity and willingness to endorse anything for a price? That says a lot about you. An old joke comes to mind about "Now that we have agreed you are a whore, wejust have to negotiate on price..."
While I agree that gun rag reviewsneed to be taken with a grain of salt, I don't think many of those names would be as willing to have their integrity besmudged for a few buck as you admit to.
Again, post a FACT, not your unsupported opinion and diatribes. Your previous posts show lack of credibility, your last post admits to your lack of integrity, your spelling speaks to your education, your manner suggests poor social skills. You really aren't making much of a case for yourself.
Come back with one singular piece of factual data, just one or a name for your "expert" references so we can see their works for ourselves. Until then just stay under your log, I am done with you.
Bear 45/70 wrote:
So you just publicly admitted to your own lack of integrity and willingness to endorse anything for a price? That says a lot about you. An old joke comes to mind about "Now that we have agreed you are a whore, wejust have to negotiate on price..."
While I agree that gun rag reviewsneed to be taken with a grain of salt, I don't think many of those names would be as willing to have their integrity besmudged for a few buck as you admit to.
Again, post a FACT, not your unsupported opinion and diatribes. Your previous posts show lack of credibility, your last post admits to your lack of integrity, your spelling speaks to your education, your manner suggests poor social skills. You really aren't making much of a case for yourself.
Come back with one singular piece of factual data, just one or a name for your "expert" references so we can see their works for ourselves. Until then just stay under your log, I am done with you.
G20-IWB24/7
Regular Member
imported post
911 Boss----I don't even drink, but I think I'd like to buy you a beer. Thank you for spending the considerable amount of time that you have to find and quote firearms training experts & real life legends. You have been able to put down in words, so eloquently, the way I (and others, I'm sure) ambeginning to feel about Bear's superiority complex, and have been able to show to all who read this that credible sources endorse lasergrips. Thanks again!
911 Boss----I don't even drink, but I think I'd like to buy you a beer. Thank you for spending the considerable amount of time that you have to find and quote firearms training experts & real life legends. You have been able to put down in words, so eloquently, the way I (and others, I'm sure) ambeginning to feel about Bear's superiority complex, and have been able to show to all who read this that credible sources endorse lasergrips. Thanks again!
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
imported post
We also need to log 911Boss's replies into our Favorites file.
We periodically get the question about lasers from new guys. We should have that post handily linked.
We also need to log 911Boss's replies into our Favorites file.
We periodically get the question about lasers from new guys. We should have that post handily linked.
Tomahawk
Regular Member
imported post
Citizen wrote:
Citizen wrote:
Agree.
Bear 45/70
Regular Member
imported post
911Boss wrote:
No I said if I worked for a gun rag, wouldn't if I could and you better drop the personal attacks or you are gonna get hammered.
Neverpick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight he will just kill you.
Speaking of trolls, how is it under the bridge? Probably why you think you need a laser living in the dark.
911Boss wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
So you just publicly admitted to your own lack of integrity and willingness to endorse anything for a price? That says a lot about you. An old joke comes to mind about "Now that we have agreed you are a whore, wejust have to negotiate on price..."
While I agree that gun rag reviewsneed to be taken with a grain of salt, I don't think many of those names would be as willing to have their integrity besmudged for a few buck as you admit to.
Again, post a FACT, not your unsupported opinion and diatribes. Your previous posts show lack of credibility, your last post admits to your lack of integrity, your spelling speaks to your education, your manner suggests poor social skills. You really aren't making much of a case for yourself.
Come back with one singular piece of factual data, just one or a name for your "expert" references so we can see their works for ourselves. Until then just stay under your log, I am done with you.
No I said if I worked for a gun rag, wouldn't if I could and you better drop the personal attacks or you are gonna get hammered.
Neverpick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight he will just kill you.
Speaking of trolls, how is it under the bridge? Probably why you think you need a laser living in the dark.
sv_libertarian
State Researcher
imported post
so we have lots of pros who support lasers? That's great. I don't have the training of a pro, so will look into lasers when I am satisfied with using the stock equipment first.
Ugh. Let's find a new controversy. Like polymer frame vs machined/forged steel/vs cast/vs alloy/vs zamak.
so we have lots of pros who support lasers? That's great. I don't have the training of a pro, so will look into lasers when I am satisfied with using the stock equipment first.
Ugh. Let's find a new controversy. Like polymer frame vs machined/forged steel/vs cast/vs alloy/vs zamak.
911Boss
Member
imported post
Bear 45/70 wrote:
"No I said if I worked for a gun rag, wouldn't if I could ..." It is pretty obvious you won't have to make choice.Clearly, you could not.They do expect a certain ability for spelling and grammar, evenwhen the readership doesn't notice. The writers are also generally expected to cite references and sources for their articles as well. It is pretty clear you don't want to be bothered with such details. You might be able to get a guest editorial, but since you bemoan the same old shit for everything, I imagine it would be a one-time gig.
Here are a few more of your own words from an earlier post:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
"Your argument stinks so you now want to make it about spelling... "
Well sir, I suggest YOUR arument "stinks" so you want to make it about threats and intimidation. That may work with the folks you are used to dealing with but it doesn't work on me.
If you want to stop the personal attacks, stop writing pal. I am only tossing your shit back at you. You want to serve it, be prepared to eat it.
I have faced my share of bullies, have yet to be swayed. Feel free to PM me if you care to arrange a meet. I would certainly be willing to let you take your shot in person. Do they let you out of the home for field trips?
That "Don't pick a fight with an old man" thing works just as well with"Don't pick a fight with a middle aged man who has no partience for your bullshit".One day you just may threaten the wrong person whodoesn't take you with a grain of salt and drops your ass without looking back.
Judging by the PM's I am receiving and the posts above, I seem to be garnering more support than you. When one person tells you you are a fool, it is easy to say he is the problem, when most everyone considers you the fool, it is time for a little self-reflection since at that point you are the common denominator.
If I used any words you don't understand, feel free to check them out at www.dictionary.com
Bear 45/70 wrote:
What you said was "Hell, I'd say the same thing if I was paid to..." damn, you are able to quote entire lengthy posts for a two line reply,I would think you could at least review your own words as well.
"No I said if I worked for a gun rag, wouldn't if I could ..." It is pretty obvious you won't have to make choice.Clearly, you could not.They do expect a certain ability for spelling and grammar, evenwhen the readership doesn't notice. The writers are also generally expected to cite references and sources for their articles as well. It is pretty clear you don't want to be bothered with such details. You might be able to get a guest editorial, but since you bemoan the same old shit for everything, I imagine it would be a one-time gig.
Here are a few more of your own words from an earlier post:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
"Your argument stinks so you now want to make it about spelling... "
Well sir, I suggest YOUR arument "stinks" so you want to make it about threats and intimidation. That may work with the folks you are used to dealing with but it doesn't work on me.
If you want to stop the personal attacks, stop writing pal. I am only tossing your shit back at you. You want to serve it, be prepared to eat it.
I have faced my share of bullies, have yet to be swayed. Feel free to PM me if you care to arrange a meet. I would certainly be willing to let you take your shot in person. Do they let you out of the home for field trips?
That "Don't pick a fight with an old man" thing works just as well with"Don't pick a fight with a middle aged man who has no partience for your bullshit".One day you just may threaten the wrong person whodoesn't take you with a grain of salt and drops your ass without looking back.
Judging by the PM's I am receiving and the posts above, I seem to be garnering more support than you. When one person tells you you are a fool, it is easy to say he is the problem, when most everyone considers you the fool, it is time for a little self-reflection since at that point you are the common denominator.
If I used any words you don't understand, feel free to check them out at www.dictionary.com