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Thread: A new take on the Mar 16 trolley ride.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/8655.html


    My general feeling about the events surrounding the Tacoma Link trolley ride had been part annoyance at the Police for detaining us and part irritation at the Transit Supervisor for not knowing his job and not wanting to learn anything more about it. I've been thinking about the event and have come to a new conclusion.

    Let's look again at what happened. A party of law abiding citizens, carrying arms, wished to board the trolley. A supervisor, claiming to know the law and the rules (neither of which he did actually know) told us we could not board the car. When we disagreed with him he called the cops. We could very well have made the call but he saved us the trouble. We boarded the car anyway, and were told "that's right" when asked if this were how he proposed to violate our civil rights. He then refused to move the train until the cops arrived, holding the other riders hostage.

    When TPD arrived on the scene we exited the car and talked with them. We were found to be in the right (of course) and the supervisor was found to be in the wrong (of course). Now, in addition to the above restoration of our civil rights, the hostages were released and Tacoma Link was forced to lets us ride their car. I'd say that the Tacoma Police did very well by us that Sunday. As to the supervisor, he has to live with himself.

    MD

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    I still have not heard from Sound Transit despite multiple attempts to contact someone regarding our case......I am sure at this point they are ignoring me and hoping I go away........

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    I still have not heard from Sound Transit despite multiple attempts to contact someone regarding our case......I am sure at this point they are ignoring me and hoping I go away........
    Don't give up and go away. Bug them until they give in. If you want more people to start calling in and asking why this isn't being resolved very fast, just post some contact info and I'll call first thing tomorrow.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    By all means, I am not down and out yet! I have to get the time to actually show up in their office is all.....they are right down the street from where I work in Seattle; they are located in Union Square across from King Street Station.

    Here is the last correspondence with name/email of someone who is supposedly handling this case. I have the lady's contact info, but supposedly she is not handling this......since it's the only phone number I have been given, I may call her directly, whether she is "involved" or not:


    We have staff assigned to investigate the issues that you have raised. The Tacoma Link Operations and Maintenance Manager is Cleve Cleveland clevecleveland@soundtransit.org.

    Thanks

    Kelly Compton
    Customer Services Assistant
    Customer Service & Accessibility Division
    Transportation Services Department
    206-398-5161 (office)
    1-800-201-4900 X 5161
    206-689-3360 (fax)
    Please note: my new e-mail address is: Kelly.Compton@SoundTransit.org
    That was received on 3/28........

  5. #5
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Got this at 7 this morning from the Link Operations Manager:
    Dear Mr. Gullickson,

    Please accept my apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I am out of the office until Friday of this week and will respond to you no later than Wednesday the April 22. I have asked my legal department to look into this mater and provide me with greater clarification on the RCW that covers open-carry in the state of Washington . It has been the policy of Tacoma Link and Pierce County to prohibit open carry of a firearm on transit vehicles and it is posted in several locations on the LRV. If you would please be patient for one more week I will have an answer for you. As far as the actions of my supervisor I will investigate his actions and want to apologies for any embarrassment that you may have been caused as a result of his actions.

    Thank you for bringing this matter to my attention.



    Best regards,

    Cleve Cleveland

    Operations and Maintenance Manager

    Tacoma Link Light Rail System
    This was my reply:

    Mr Cleveland,

    Thank you for getting back to me on this matter. I appreciate your apologies regarding the supervisor's actions on this date, and I would like the opportunity to discuss both the actions of your supervisor and the applicable laws regarding the lawful carry of a firearm, openly or concealed on a public transit vehicle.

    I am attaching a pamphlet that lists many helpful laws pertaining to Washington State, specifically regarding laws pertaining to carrying a firearm; this pamphlet spells out many of the details regarding when it is lawful to carry, and where it is not. Under Washington State law, since Sound Transit is a public transit authority, just like Pierce Transit, Metro Transit, Community Transit, etc, the law is quite clear about when a public transit authority is or is not allowed to deny access to this publicly owned transit system. A person or persons simply openly carrying their firearms does not meet the criteria to allow your employees to deny someone access to public transit.

    I believe what we have here, in regards to the signs posted at various Sound Transit bus/train loading zones, is a misinterpretation of the laws in place in Washington State regarding lawful carry of a firearm on a public transit vehicle. Please note that Tacoma Police responded to the scene of this incident that day, and we talked with them at length regarding the applicable laws regarding our method of carry, and riding the Tacoma Link. They agreed that what we were doing was legal, and that we could ride the Link without issue. If we were breaking the law, or were incorrect in our interpretation of the law, we would have most certainly been asked to leave, or in the worst case, arrested by the police for attempting to board the Link.

    I call your attention to a RCW section that is left out on the signs posted at Sound Transit loading zones: Section 9.91.025 (e) "Carries any flammable liquid, explosive, acid, or other article or material likely to cause harm to others except that nothing herein prevents a person from carrying a cigarette, cigar, or pipe lighter or carrying a firearm or ammunition in a way that is not otherwise prohibited by law;" The sign at the Link station simply says "No Firearms", which is inaccurate.

    I believe a good change that could be made is to change the wording on your reader boards at the Sounder station, as well as the signs at bus stops and the Link, to specify "no unlawful weapons or firearms", as it says on your website, and in the book on the buses and trains that lays out the bus routes. That would bring Sound Transit into compliance with WA State law, and make sure that the rules listed by Sound Transit for conduct on public transit would be consistent, no matter where a rider is looking for them. I would also recommend an administrative note be sent to all employees that may be dealing with the public, in regards to bus drivers, Sounder staff, security, etc, that open carry is legal, and that it is permissible to do so on Sound Transit vehicles, so that these types of incidents do not occur in the future.

    Please feel free to peruse this attached pamphlet, and please forward this information to your legal department so they can see the proper Washington law regarding lawful carry of a firearm in this state. I appreciate your time and assistance on this matter, and I eagerly await your forthcoming response.


    Sincerely,

    David Gullickson
    Just the response was more than I was hoping for, so I feel pretty validated right now.....persistence pays off! :celebrate I sent him a copy of the "gun rights" pamphlet as well as quoted the applicable RCW stating that they basically were way off base in trying to prevent lawful carry of firearms on any public transit vehicle, and like it or not, Sound Transit is a public transit authority. Hopefully the suits will see they really don't have an out on this one......I'll post any reply I get here so you all can see it.

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    "I think you are all just a bunch of crazy activists looking for a fight where there isn't one." Just kidding!!!!!!! I think it is awesome what just a few people exercising their rights can stir up in this state. If only more people here in Washingtondid it!!! Good on you guys!!!

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    ravensmiles13 wrote:
    "I think you are all just a bunch of crazy activists looking for a fight where there isn't one." Just kidding!!!!!!! I think it is awesome what just a few people exercising their rights can stir up in this state. If only more people here in Washingtondid it!!! Good on you guys!!!
    Good to see you on the board dude! You are going to have to come to one of our lunches, or you aren't a real member of the cult! JK :P

    Guys, this is a friend of mine; he rides the train with me just about every day. Just call him "Gimpy".

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    Welcome to the board gimpy. Join us sometime for lunch.

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    I plan on it!!!

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    Good job David. A very respectful and well written letter.

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    Regular Member Shy_Panda's Avatar
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    compmanio365 wrote:
    Got this at 7 this morning from the Link Operations Manager:
    Dear Mr. Gullickson,

    Please accept my apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I am out of the office until Friday of this week and will respond to you no later than Wednesday the April 22. I have asked my legal department to look into this mater and provide me with greater clarification on the RCW that covers open-carry in the state of Washington . It has been the policy of Tacoma Link and Pierce County to prohibit open carry of a firearm on transit vehicles and it is posted in several locations on the LRV. If you would please be patient for one more week I will have an answer for you. As far as the actions of my supervisor I will investigate his actions and want to apologies for any embarrassment that you may have been caused as a result of his actions.

    Thank you for bringing this matter to my attention.



    Best regards,

    Cleve Cleveland

    Operations and Maintenance Manager

    Tacoma Link Light Rail System
    So I am curious as to what, if any, response you got regarding the carrying of firearms openly on public transit. Did they, A. See reason and determine that you were well within your rights and that they could not prohibit you nor anyone else from using that method of transport; or B. Did they just ignore you as I suppose will happen with these government type folks when they know that they have been pushed into a corner with no wiggle room.

    Personally I hope it was the former.

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    Hmmm.... interesting. Even Intercity transit has aknowledged legal OC, although I haven't tried it. Do the buses in Tacoma have actual verbage prohititing OC? All the PT buses I have seen have RCW 9.91.025 cited, which allows for the lawful transport of firearms and ammo. I have OC'd on two PT owned Sound Transit buses and have had no problem, nor at Tacoma Dome Station so far...

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    I was supposed to hear back on Wednesday from that person, but have heard nothing as of yet. They are playing the famous waiting game and hoping I go away, I'm sure. I'm going to get in touch with someone by phone or even just walk over to the Sound Transit building today, although I don't think this guy is in Seattle, but down in Tacoma.......

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Ha, just got a response from Sound Transit.......maybe they are reading this forum, hmm?
    Dear Mr. Gullickson,

    I am still waiting for a final response from our legal department who is working with the Tacoma Police Department to address this issue. I was hoping to set an appointment with you to discuss this matter but I now understand that it will be at least two weeks before I a final decision. First of all I wanted to let you know that I did review the reference material on the RCW that you forwarded to me along with your notes and I found the information most helpful. I also wanted you to know that I did forward this information as you suggested. The reason for this e mail is to let you know that this review is still a high priority on my list but I will still require a little more time. Please feel free to reply to this message as I will be checking my emails and answering the ones that I can and forwarding the ones that need further attention. If I hear anything in the interim I will contact you.



    Thank you for your patients in this matter,



    Cleve Cleveland
    My reply:
    Thank you for your response, as I was about to contact you regarding this matter since I had not heard back last week. I would be happy to set an appointment with you at some point; please just let me know when that time comes and we will work out a time that fits into both of our schedules.



    I am glad you found the attached pamphlet and included RCW codes useful; hopefully those points of information will help your legal department come to the best conclusion regarding policies at Sound Transit to mirror state law.



    I thank you for your attention into this matter, and hope to hear from you again shortly.







    Thank you,



    David Gullickson
    I'm not letting them off the hook on the whole point of their signageand policies having to mirror state policy. I'm not entirely sure what Tacoma PD or their legal department can bring to the table to change that.......but if they want to spin their wheels a bit on it, so be it.


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    Regular Member Shy_Panda's Avatar
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    That is funny, and it does make wonder if they are reading this hoping that the thread would just fall to the way-side and nobody would care anymore. Glad to hear that he is still trying to figure things out, although I am still reluctant to believe that it was not just avoidance on their part. I would like to see how this goes because with gas prices on the rise I am looking more and more at using public transportation around Pullman and over into Moscow. Just want some other examples to point to if they hastle me at all.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Well, last time there was actually any issue, we got it overturned pretty quickly by the Tacoma PD, who actually seemed to interpret the actual law in effect, so even if you did have trouble, you wouldn't actually BE in trouble once it got straightened out.

    What I'm trying to do is get Sound Transit in line with the rest of the PTAs here in WA state, and get them to realize the law requires them to allow lawful carry of a weapon on any public transit vehicle, and their desire to do so or not really doesn't factor into the equation here......hopefully once they stop stalling and delaying they'll end up having to admit that to themselves and me, and once they change signage to mirror that and train their employees to this fact, we hopefully won't have a repeat of the trolley ride incident here in Tacoma.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    compmanio365 wrote:
    Ha, just got a response from Sound Transit.......maybe they are reading this forum, hmm?
    I wouldn't doubt it in the least. It was pretty apparent from Mainsail's dealings with Olympia PD that government agencies check and/or lurk here. It's a public forum; hopefully they realize through what we say here that we're serious and we are not easily intimidated.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    just_a_car wrote:
    compmanio365 wrote:
    Ha, just got a response from Sound Transit.......maybe they are reading this forum, hmm?
    I wouldn't doubt it in the least. It was pretty apparent from Mainsail's dealings with Olympia PD that government agencies check and/or lurk here. It's a public forum; hopefully they realize through what we say here that we're serious and we are not easily intimidated.
    No, never had any dealings with Oly PD.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    Mainsail wrote:
    just_a_car wrote:
    compmanio365 wrote:
    Ha, just got a response from Sound Transit.......maybe they are reading this forum, hmm?
    I wouldn't doubt it in the least. It was pretty apparent from Mainsail's dealings with Olympia PD that government agencies check and/or lurk here. It's a public forum; hopefully they realize through what we say here that we're serious and we are not easily intimidated.
    No, never had any dealings with Oly PD.
    Sorry, was getting myself mixed-up. It was SV-lib that had that happen. I'm at school trying to get two lab reports done and study for two midterms... all for tomorrow. My brain's not exactly all in one piece at the moment.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

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    A sail's a sail, eh?

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    just_a_car wrote:
    Sorry, was getting myself mixed-up. It was SV-lib that had that happen. I'm at school trying to get two lab reports done and study for two midterms... all for tomorrow. My brain's not exactly all in one piece at the moment.
    LOL. Lt. Wilson knew of OCDO when I spoke with him, I think maybe Lonnie had brought it to his attention about a year before my first incident. I simply reminded him of it, and also gave him links to the discussions I had started. Like to keep people in the loop, especially when public opinion counts.

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    This trolly system is a common carrier, no? I think that means that common law and federal law requires they take all comers. Raise this issue with them if problems continue.

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    The transit is a municipal authority. They tax, can exercise eminent domain, etc... as such they are bound by state law. RCW 9.91.025 allows for the lawful transport of firearms and ammunition on transit vehicles or on transit property. That said they can't do squat about a lawfully carried firearm. Which reminds me I need to bug Mason Transit again...

  24. #24
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Latest correspondence:
    Dear Mr. Gullickson,

    Once again please accept my apologies for the delay in responding to this very important mater. As you may or may not be aware I have been called away from the office and have just returned. As this matter is of such high importance Sound Transit has been corresponding with other transit agencies as well as local, state and federal authorities to ensure that a proper response is provided. It is my expectation that I will be able to provide you with a response by early next and will make every effort to keep this matter at the highest priority until this issue is resolved.

    Thank you for your patients in this matter.



    Best regards,

    Cleve




    [size=

    ]
    [/size]

    From: David Gullickson [mailto:compmanio365@yahoo.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 8:52 AM
    To: Cleveland, Cleve
    Cc: Compton, Kelly
    Subject: Re: FW:


    [size=][/size]





    Mr Cleveland,



    I am writing due to the fact that it is now May 28th, a full month after your last correspondence, and I have not seen any update on this issue. I do not understand what could be taking so long to come to the conclusion that Sound Transit must be compliant with applicable state law, and that it would be a good idea to train Sound Transit employees as to what the correct law is, to avoid such incidents as ours in the future.



    I believe it would be in everyone's best interest to have some closure to this issue and to make sure that steps are in place to prevent any further incidents regarding the lawful carry of a firearm on Sound Transit. If I can do anything to help bring this issue to a close, or if there is anyone else I can contact to accelerate this process, please let me know.



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