Carrying to a business lunch?

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Rather than post this in the forum where I found the link (Illinois) and risk being WOT, I am quoting and posting my response here instead.

I will say that I only skimmed through the forum before posting this, so please forgive any obiously repeated questions.

Rey wrote:

I'm in the same boat to a point. My company also has a policy against it. In the Virginia stateforum I posted a topic regarding a business lunch. It's actually quite interesting what fellow OCers responded with

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/9729.html

What I'm doing now is empty holstering to work on the premise that since I wear church clothes to work everyday it's a pain in the ass to keep putting my holster on and off everytime I go to my car for lunch, etc. so i just keep it on. it's part of my everyday wardrobe anyway.

Trust me. I know this is not a good idea for most people. but i'm pushing the envelope so to speak. i mean, they're not gonna ban empty holsters anytime soon, and my demeanor is always pleasant and respectful and it educates them as well.

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I park on the public street right off our parking lot so as to avoid the "may we search?" question...but guess what, your state and mine (Nevada) are both at-will states. They can fire me for any reason they want. They'll make something up about tardiness, poor performance, insubordination, etc. But if they think my eyes are too blue, they can fire me.

So, even though I am technically within the LETTER of their rule (I am not on company property with a firearm), am I within the SPIRIT of the law (I have a firearm within easy access during the work day)? Doesn't matter, they can fire me because my tires aren't inflated properly.

A few other questions.

First, the open holster thing is OK for the college protest they're doing to demonstrate the problem with those college carry laws. But doesn't wearing an empty holster every day get unwanted attention? And I don't mean from the people at your office that others have mentioned below. Even if your senior management is OK today, they could be un-OK tomorrow. Or their new insurance policy, lawyer, HR director, pick a tightass, might change the policy, or their might come new management...but not them.

No, I'm referring to the people who will never hassle you about the empty holster: the would-be thief who sees you exit your car with an empty holster and have good reason to assume you left your firearm behind. Especially if it's your daily routine, which it sounds like it is. Good reason for him to choose your car over someone elses...

And how do you avoid potentially "brandishing" your firearm each time you handle it to holster/unholster - especially if/when you take passengers with you?

Last, my personal feeling is that OC is a personal choice one must make with serious consideration. For the positives, there are some admitted dangers. Seeing your OC weapon might make you a first-target, but like me, you've considered this possibility and weighed it against the potential to stop the situation before it starts with increased awareness and possibly deterring the crime in the first place.

But doesn't an empty holster suggest you might still be armed (CC), and thus make you a first-target anyway? Except, the empty holster is empty, so you have no way to defend yourself, thus multiplying (against your favor) the very reason many of us cite in support of the 2nd amendment....

Consider, that defenseless victim sign on a store is an advertisement for criminals to "shop" there. Your empty holster is like you being defenseless in that store while also wearing a t-shirt saying you have $5000 cash in your pocket.

Tim

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"How true am I to my convictions?" "What's my honor worth?" Noble questions, indeed.

If it were me, I'd leave the heat and focus on the purpose of the lunch - business. I can't carry as often as I'd like (such as at work), but I make it a point to carry where I can, and call it good. One of the benefits to getting people involved in both open and concealed carrying is that it increases the odds that some responsible person is armed, even if it happens to not be you that day. For my part, I wouldn't want to possibly shift the focus of the meeting from the business.

Besides, if something did happen, it would be an opportunity to impress the boss with your hand-to-hand skills!

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I CC everywhere.

Unless they actually have a means of determining if I am carrying; metal detectors.

Those places, I just plain don't go.

No force shall compel me to the contrary while I still draw breath. Period. Should any entity attempt to alter this, a very severe price shall be paid by it; certainly higher than attempting to rob me of my Freedom could possibly be worth.

So, for the 'normal' people, I'm probably not a good person to ask for advice. ;-)

No way someone as low as an anti-humane employer would change my mind.

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It sounds like the concensus of the forum is to leave it (I am shocked!). I don't really like the answer either, because I'm in the same boat, but this was a great way to discuss and consider it.

Edit: My personal opinion, be very low key and deep conceal. You won't have 1-2 second access, but you will still have it if you hear some crazy employee violating policy. And if you're asked to be searched, DENY, even if it means your job, if they find it, it's your job anyway. Who's to say your boss didn't try anyway despite your objection, and assaulted you in the process by twisting your arm or groping you? Not to mention that denying you the right to leave is kidnapping in many states. Low key might be hard now though that they've seen you with the empty holster

Brings up an interesting point though. I think employment is one of the few cases where necessity may give way to necessity. I have a need to be armed to defend myself, but maybe the need to bring home a paycheck trumps it (I often argue both sides of the equation. I'm wrong every time, but that's OK because I'm also right every time).

What other things in life give way to personal defense? My child has to go to school, but even though carrying on school grounds is not permitted, it's easy to get around by dropping her off at the public sidewalk right in front of the school. So that doesn't count. I have to eat, but I don't have to go to a restaurant, I can buy groceries, or go hunting (I am armed after all). What besides employment REQUIRES you to be defenseless? Jury duty? Air travel (or travel of any kind considering the huge differences in laws between the various states and the risk of your normal, peaceful, every-day activities become felonious)?

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I, personally, would OC if I felt like it. I'm not trying to be patronizing, but I have better things to do than worry about silly policies and what "people think."

In my own experience, standing strong on your convictions is worth at least as much as doing what people expect you to do.

Then again, I'm not in a circumstance remotely like you describe, so don't take that as advice.


Edit: one thing I will say though. What the hell kind of jobs do you guys have where you even seriously consider the possibility of being searched? Count me out.

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marshaul wrote:

Edit: one thing I will say though. What the hell kind of jobs do you guys have where you even seriously consider the possibility of being searched? Count me out.

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Very good point. If I were singled out for a search, no matter what excuses or rights they claimed, I would DEMAND they search each and every other employee, otherwise, is the fact that I'm (pick a characteristic) the reason you're discriminating against me?

They would very likely back down today, and terminate me in 4 days for unrelated matters.

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Hey Marine:exclaim:Ya you mister. All laws repugnant to the Constitution are null and void. Keep it in deep cover. Remember Rubys. Be Safe.

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marshaul wrote:

Edit: one thing I will say though. What the hell kind of jobs do you guys have where you even seriously consider the possibility of being searched? Count me out.

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I won't speak for anyone else here, but one where security is taken very seriously.

Tim - the only flaw I see with your point is they could say consent or leave, for good. I'm not in a position where I want to leave, for good, yet, lol. That day is coming though.

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marshaul wrote:

Edit: one thing I will say though. What the hell kind of jobs do you guys have where you even seriously consider the possibility of being searched? Count me out.

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I'm onsite at a gov't facility. No other parking available other than onsite. The money is goodand I havequite a few years till I caneven thinkabout retirement,so I don't plan on risking future employement. This area has a lot of business associated with the gov't so any blemishes on my record could literally black ball me.

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eyesopened wrote:

marshaul wrote:

Edit: one thing I will say though. What the hell kind of jobs do you guys have where you even seriously consider the possibility of being searched? Count me out.

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I'm onsite at a gov't facility. No other parking available other than onsite. The money is goodand I havequite a few years till I caneven thinkabout retirement,so I don't plan on risking future employement. This area has a lot of business associated with the gov't so any blemishes on my record could literally black ball me.

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Reason #261 to not even apply for a Government job, much less accept one: They don't respect you as a Citizen, they sure as hell won't respect you as an Employee.

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ixtow wrote:

eyesopened wrote:

marshaul wrote:

Edit: one thing I will say though. What the hell kind of jobs do you guys have where you even seriously consider the possibility of being searched? Count me out.

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I'm onsite at a gov't facility.  No other parking available other than onsite.  The money is good and I have quite a few years till I can even think about retirement, so I don't plan on risking future employement.  This area has a lot of business associated with the gov't so any blemishes on my record could literally black ball me.

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Reason #261 to not even apply for a Government job, much less accept one: They don't respect you as a Citizen, they sure as hell won't respect you as an Employee.

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A lesson my father taught me after he quit working for the government to seek self-employment in the private sector, many years ago.

Needless to say, all concerned have been better off since.

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Well.

The lunch was a smashing success.

And I left it in the trunk.

In retrospect it was the best choice I think, since even if all involved happened to be 2A strong supporters the conversation would've been hijacked by the presence of my sidearm. and supporter or not the boss might not have liked it.

As far as my empty holster display. If my job security wasn't as strong as it is right now I probably wouldn't push the issue. But it is kind of pointless in that they're NOT gonna change company policy to accomodate me. So, I'm just gonna get a paddle holster to keep it from being such a PITA to take on and off.

Thanks for all the advice ya'll.

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I don't intend to be derisive, but since you chose not to carry, CC or OC, I fail to see how the conclusion is in any way useful. I went to work today too...

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Because it's my thread.

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Good enough... ;-)

But there is more to it than that.

I take it from your Avatar that you were/are in the military. Seems sad that even being one who enlisted to defend freedoms has to live in fear of what might happen should you dare exercise them....

And fear beat you today.

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I would call it common sense, but ok. Potato potahto.

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I'm inclined to share ixtow's view on this one.

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Please don't take that as an insult, it was not intended to be. But I fail to see how voluntarilly giving up your freedoms falls into the category of common-sense. Seems quite the opposite to me. Fear of the prejudice of others often compels people to give up much that they should not have to. Some try to justify it, and say they like it that way just because they can't change it.

You feared losing your job due to prejudice against exercising a right, so you gave up that right in advance so as not to lose your job.

Common-sense in the perspective of keeping your job. Self-subjugation followed by "I meant to do that" from the perspective of someone who values freedom more than a job.

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ixtow wrote:

Please don't take that as an insult, it was not intended to be. But I fail to see how voluntarilly giving up your freedoms falls into the category of common-sense. Seems quite the opposite to me. Fear of the prejudice of others often compels people to give up much that they should not have to. Some try to justify it, and say they like it that way just because they can't change it.

You feared losing your job due to prejudice against exercising a right, so you gave up that right in advance so as not to lose your job.

Common-sense in the perspective of keeping your job. Self-subjugation followed by "I meant to do that" from the perspective of someone who values freedom more than a job.

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I can assure you (or maybe I can't) that it wasn't the fear of losing my job. It was the fear of prejudice, you're right. Prejudice of others against my employer and/or my company.

I was baa'ing my head off right through my snapper filet.

In the Marines you are told how to dress and how to wear a uniform and when to wear what. They even make you pick up your discharge papers in uniform. Well, the minute that Lance Corporal handed them to me and said, "here you go staff sergeant" I replied to him, "my name is Rey." I took off my blouse, took off my boots, put on tennis shoes and walked my happy ass to the car, filled up with gas, got some groceries. Because I was a regular joe and it was my right to dress how I please!!

Now. Just because I can wear flip flops and sunglasses to a business meeting, should I exercise that right? Or use some common sense and not detract from the meeting's professional intent?

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I don't see how a firearm would detract from 'business intent.' I fail to see how the two are in any way mutually exclusive.

As stated before, I'm not trying to insult you. I just don't get it and was hoping you could explain it. I wasn't trying to be confrontational.

You have explained it, and I still don't see how the things you've said apply. I can see how the prejudiced might insinuate that it does... But that is all.

People like me probablay won't get far in a society such as that which I find myself in. And I'm fine with that. You conform in the face of prejudice, I don't. I'll leave it at that.