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Illegal traffic stop last night

marko3132

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[wrong username, so reposted]

I was pulled over and and searched without permission last night... Here is what happened.

Long story short, my friend was drunk and stupid. I was sober and driving him around. I realize this was a dumb thing to do, but he sees some people walking down the street and starts talking to them... they ask for a ride and he lets them in (man and woman)... While this was probably very dumb to allow strangers in the vehicle, it happened... and I did have my gun, so I still felt fairly safe. We drove around the block and came to the point where we were going to drop them off. It was just a two minute drive.

At that moment, a police car with three cops inside pulled up alongside us and aimed flashlights into my car... they did not know who my friend and I were, but as soon as they saw the other two individuals in the vehicle with us... they got out and asked all of us to step out of the vehicle.

I did... then I handed the officer my CCW. He immediately reached over and felt the gun on my hip... and grabbed it and removed it from my person without my permission. Another officer also put my friend in handcuffs for no aparent reason. Then one asked me if he could search the vehicle. I did not have any drugs, nor do I ever... but since there were two individuals in the vehicle that I had never met before, I did not know if they had anything illegal on them. For this reason, I told the officer he could not search my vehicle.

Within a minute or two... they entered the vehicle and begin searching through everything. He even opened the glove box in between my two seats and found my Blackhawk Serpa holster.

The cops were not rude or disrespectful, but they told me that the two individuals with us were "known drug dealers." But we did nothing illegal by giving them a ride down the block... so why should we be stopped, disarmed, and searched (without permission) just because those individuals happened to be in my car (no drugs or anything!).

Long story short... I told them they couldn't search my car, and they did it anyway. Did they break the law? After they found that the two individuals had nothing on them, they just let them (and us) leave... and no citations were issued.
 

Lysander

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marko3132 wrote:
[wrong username, so reposted]

I was pulled over and and searched without permission last night... Here is what happened.

Long story short, my friend was drunk and stupid. I was sober and driving him around. I realize this was a dumb thing to do, but he sees some people walking down the street and starts talking to them... they ask for a ride and he lets them in (man and woman)... While this was probably very dumb to allow strangers in the vehicle, it happened... and I did have my gun, so I still felt fairly safe. We drove around the block and came to the point where we were going to drop them off. It was just a two minute drive.

At that moment, a police car with three cops inside pulled up alongside us and aimed flashlights into my car... they did not know who my friend and I were, but as soon as they saw the other two individuals in the vehicle with us... they got out and asked us all to step out of the vehicle.

I did... then I handed the officer my CCW. He immediately reached over and felt the gun on my hip... and grabbed it and removed it from my person without my permission. Then he asked me if he could search the vehicle. I did not have any drugs, nor do I ever... but since there were two individuals in the vehicle that I had never met before, I did not know if they had anything illegal on them. For this reason, I told the officer he could not search my vehicle.

Within a minute or two... they entered the vehicle and begin searching through everything. He even opened the glove box in between my two seats and found my Blackhawk Serpa holster.

The cops were not rude or disrespectful, but they told me that the two individuals with us were "known drug dealers." But we did NOTHING illegal by giving them a ride down the block... so why should we be stopped, disarmed, and searched (without permission) just because those individuals happened to be in my car (no drugs or anything!).

Long story short... I told them they couldn't search my car, and they did it anyway. Did they break the law? After they found that the two individuals had nothing on them, they just let them (and us) leave... and no citations were issued.
OK, I'll bite.

If you're really aggrieved at the Officer's action, hire a lawyer and deal with it. Otherwise, it looks like one of those "Life Lessons", which is a polite way of saying "you done fracked up."

Now, a critique:

"he sees some people walking down the street and starts talking to them..." You probably were going slow enough for him to talk to them, I surmise.

"they ask for a ride and he lets them in (man and woman)... While this was probably very dumb to allow strangers in the vehicle, it happened..." Yea, I agree - with the latter. You were the one driving; you had to have heard the conversation he was having with total strangers.

"two individuals in the vehicle that I had never met before" The only thing I can think of with this is 'Drive on, don't stop!' Of course, that would have been before your (drunk) buddy let them in the car.

"We drove around the block and came to the point where we were going to drop them off. It was just a two minute drive." No comment on this; see my first comment above.

Yea, you said "No" to the search and he searched anyways... best save that for your lawyer, should you get one.

[sup]Nothing in the above message constitutes Legal Advice. Material is provided for informational/entertainment or other purposes and is not intended to constitute or be relied upon as Legal Advice, nor is it tailored to any specific factual situation. This is not an offer to form an attorney-client relationship. This is not advertising, nor intended to be such. While I am an attorney, I am NOT YOUR attorney.[/sup]
 

marko3132

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I already realize it was very stupid to allow them in the vehicle... but I did agree to give them a ride... Yes I could have stopped them, but I didn't.

That being said.. I'm concerned with the way the officers searched my vehicle after our incident of stupidity... it doesn't seem right. What happened to the fourth ammendment?

If I hire a lawyer, what are the possible outcomes. Could the department be required to pay me for conducting the illegal search? I don't even have the officer's names, but I know the date and time of the incident and I know what at least two of them looked like.
 

MarkNH

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IANAL but the cops see two people driving slowly down the street, they stop to talk to two known drug dealers, the drug dealers get in the car, they drive around the block for two minutes, then they pull over - I think they had probable cause to suspect you or your buddy were buying and to stop you and search your car.
 

marko3132

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They didn't see them get in at all. They only pulled up and noticed us when we were dropping them off at their house. Their only suspicion was that they knew the individuals to be "drug dealers" in the past... and that they were in our vehicle.
 

HardChrome

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Sounds like the officers knew the area and knew the people in the car. The most likely reason they knew them is from prior arrests. That was probably sufficient cause for them to search your vehicle without your permission. The officer probably asked so as not to be a butthole about it.

I'd be very careful from now on about letting a drunk person make decisions for you. Actually I'd refrain from being around anyone who drinks to the point of intoxication in the first place.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I suspect that I am a little older than you. I would have never been riding around with a drunk person in my car to begin with.

You could obtain a lawyer but it seems that there were no damages therefore nothing to be gained by any legal action. You might want to slap your buddy upside the head though. :)

But seriously though, I'm glad it worked out ok for you.
 

Lysander

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HardChrome wrote:
You might want to slap your buddy upside the head though. :)

But seriously though, I'm glad it worked out ok for you.
Or have the buddy pay for the lawyer.

marko3132 wrote:
If I hire a lawyer, what are the possible outcomes. Could the department be required to pay me for conducting the illegal search? I don't even have the officer's names, but I know the date and time of the incident and I know what at least two of them looked like.
You'd need a lawyer in your state to answer that.

My intent wasn't to pick on you, but those may be points your lawyer might look at.


[sup]Nothing in the above message constitutes Legal Advice. Material is provided for informational/entertainment or other purposes and is not intended to constitute or be relied upon as Legal Advice, nor is it tailored to any specific factual situation. This is not an offer to form an attorney-client relationship. This is not advertising, nor intended to be such. While I am an attorney, I am NOT YOUR attorney.[/sup]
 

rady8um

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Dude, you need to take a step back and re-evaluate a few things.

How can you possibly think that a slow cruise in a known drug dealer's area, anda two minute ride around the block doesn't warrant a looksee by the police?

I don't really see the problem with driving your drunk friend around, however, the police already know that drunk in public usually means "drunk and stupid". I'm sure your friend was perfectly quiet and cooperative with the police.

Your lucky the two dopers in the back seat didn't toss a bag to the front seat when the police pulled you over. I doubt they would have told the police that the drugs really belonged to them and that you were totaly inocent.

Given your first post asking about walking around with your gun in your hand, and your description of what happened the other night,I think you arereally out of touch with what kind of responsibilty is involved when you carry a firearm.

Sorry, just my .02.
 

HardChrome

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rady8um wrote:
Dude, you need to take a step back and re-evaluate a few things.

...I think you arereally out of touch with what kind of responsibilty is involved when you carry a firearm.
Don't take what he's saying personally. He's right about the responsibility of carying a weapon. We may have a right to protect ourselves but with that right comes the responsibility to make sure that we never have to use lethal force. We need to be prepared to do so but do whatever possible not to get into a situation that requires it in the first place.

Just because you carry doesn't mean that you have the upper hand. Once bullets start flying there is a high probablility that someone is going to get hurt. Ever talk to someone who has used lethal force legally? I have and I don't ever want to be there myself.

I open carry almost as much as I conceal but I only open carry when I feel pretty confident that I'm not going to make a spectacle of myself or agitate any situation that I may be in. I've also been carrying for 25 years.

Glenn
 

mkl

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HardChrome wrote:
Sounds like the officers knew the area and knew the people in the car. The most likely reason they knew them is from prior arrests. That was probably sufficient cause for them to search your vehicle without your permission.

Huh? Seriously? You think that if the police know that someone has been arrested for drugs multiple times in the past, from then on they can just search anywhere the person is? Innocent until proven guilty does not go away just because a person has in the past been arrested for a crime. If the police had no evidence that a drug deal was going down, how do they have sufficient cause to search?
I don't care if I have Charles Manson in my car, if he is out of jail and legal, you don't have authority to search my car unless you have more evidence than just I have a known criminal in my car.
 

marko3132

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mkl wrote:
HardChrome wrote:
Sounds like the officers knew the area and knew the people in the car. The most likely reason they knew them is from prior arrests. That was probably sufficient cause for them to search your vehicle without your permission.

Huh? Seriously? You think that if the police know that someone has been arrested for drugs multiple times in the past, from then on they can just search anywhere the person is? Innocent until proven guilty does not go away just because a person has in the past been arrested for a crime. If the police had no evidence that a drug deal was going down, how do they have sufficient cause to search?
I don't care if I have Charles Manson in my car, if he is out of jail and legal, you don't have authority to search my car unless you have more evidence than just I have a known criminal in my car.
That was the idea behind my post... and why I wasn't sure if the search was actually legal. I guess you said it better than I could.
 

Citizen

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marko3132 wrote:
SNIP I was pulled over and and searched without permission last night... Here is what happened.

I am not a lawyer.

Known drug dealers have nothing to do with it. Drug dealers in the back of the car have as many rights as if they were driving the car. Same goes for you, driving or ridingwith a drug dealerwho isn't giving the indications needed for a TerryStop.

You mentioned nothing that would havepermitted the stop in the first place. No traffic offense, nothing.

Sounds like an illegal stop in the first place. Not just the subsequent search.

These officers are jeopardizingenforcement of the laws.Sooner or later a court is going to let a real criminal get away.

It is my understanding that if the non-consensual stop is illegal in the first place, then the search would be illegal, and anything discovered duringan illegalsearch would be susceptible to being ruledinadmissable evidence. Meaning that even if the officers had found 5 kilos of cocaine in the car, everybody would walk.

Check with an attorney or someone knowledgeable about the law to increase yourcertainty, and file a formal complaint. Can't have the police rousting citizens. Can't have the police making illegal searches.Can't have the police performing illegal searches that then, if something is found, forces them to lie to prevent the evidence being ruled inadmissable.

And especially can't have the police doing improper police work thatresults incriminals getting away.
 

Michigander

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I see several problems. First is that you screwed up massively with what you did, but I guess you learned your lesson. Detroit is a dangerous place, and the police are extremely corrupt.

As far as legality, I somewhat agree with Citizen. If the guys were "known drug dealers", they could have been on parole and that could have made it easier to legally search them. But for you, they had no probable cause, and they should have got a warrant. There was no hurry, and what they did was not excuseable. If you had 4 kilos of cocaine in your trunk, it would have indeed been meaninless in court, because the search was illegal.

What you do about it is your business, but if it were me, I'd consider it a good lesson learned, and leave it at that. Messing around with legal action in Detroit would probably be a waste of time, because I guarantee you nobody anywhere in Detroit's legal system gives a rats ass about what happened. They have so many bigger things to worry about. On the other hand, they did used to be known for paying out all law suits under 10 grand...
 

rady8um

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Does anybody know for sure thatthe police did not witness the dopers getting in the back of the car to begin with? I realize the OP stated that the police did not witness this, but there is no way of knowing for sure.Maybe the neighbors have complained of drug dealers and short drives around the block so the police were observing questionable activity in the area.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing thata vehiclepicking up passengers in a known drug area and driving around the block for two minutesis not PC for a vehicle stop.

I'm not trying to bust the OP's balls here, and I'm very glad things worked out fine. However, I think that given the circumstances, the LEO was not out of line searching the vehicle. Just because someone objects to a search, does not mean the cops won't search, especially if they have a reasonable suspicion that an illegal activity has just taken place.
 

mkl

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rady8um wrote:
Does anybody know for sure that the police did not witness the dopers getting in the back of the car to begin with?

.... Just because someone objects to a search, does not mean the cops won't search, especially if they have a reasonable suspicion that an illegal activity has just taken place.

My thoughts are, it doesn't matter if someone did witness them getting in the car. There is nothing illegal about short drives with known criminals.
Aren't we always complaining on this forum that open carry is legal, so that is not justification for a police officer to stop and illegally search us? Then how can you then switch and say, "seeing two people commit a legal activity that happens to be unusual is grounds for a search".
I am not a cop, and not a lawyer. I am sure someone will find some case law that makes it legal, but that doesn't make it right to me. This is still America, where people have rights.
This is how I see it:
There was no illegal act witnessed.
There was an activity that was unusual, and perhaps had some of the same parameters as an illegal activity, but no evidence that a crime took place.

Wether the cops saw the head of the worlds largest drug gang get in your car, or just 2 known junkies, if they do not have a warrant, and they have no evidence that illegal activity has taken place, they do NOT have the right to search my car.

Of course they have the right to search if they have "reasonable suspicion", but we must have different feelings about those words. Do you think it is reasonable to have your car searched every time a cop sees you are open carrying? Why not? It seems just as logical to search someone for open carrying a gun as to search them for giving to people a short ride.
 

mzbk2l

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Keep in mind we're getting one side of the story here. What if the cops witnessed the two "hitchhikers" involved in a crime before they got in the car?

That is one of probably several circumstances that the driver may not even be aware of that would make this a legal search.

(The other option, of course, is that the Detroit cops are just following KK's lead and being as crooked as they think they can get away with.) :)
 

rady8um

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If an armed robbery just took place and a cop sees someone who just happens to have a large bag in his hand, and isrunning toget into hiscar, and he happens to have a gun (or not, as the fact that the OP had a gun is not relevent), and that personisin close proximity to the known area of the criminal activity, andhappens to have two known armed robbersin the back seat, then I would say the police would be justified in stoppingthe vehicleand taking a look in the car.

It's no different in the OP's situation:

Stop indrug area+

pick up drug dealers+

circle block+

drop off drug dealers=

reasonable suspicion that a crime was just commited.

I may be off base here, but I fail to see how theOP's scenario could be witnessed by a LEO and not investigated.

I know we couild do what-if's all day long, but since we don't know all of the facts, I'll agree that given the info from the OP, the stop and search was questionable. However, just because a LEO did not directly witness a crime, does not mean the LEO can't search a vehicle that he reasonably believes may have been used to engage in a criminal activity, such as circling the block with two known drug dealers.

IANAL or a LEO, just an observation from my living room.
 

marko3132

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Just to clarify something. It is *VERY* unlikely that the cops saw the individuals enter our vehicle or saw us circling the block. The first time they saw us and conducted the search was when they happened to be driving down that street and looked into our car and noticed the individuals.

I'm confident about this because the way we entered the street after doing the drive is from the complete opposite direction that the cops came from. And we were parked for several minutes before they even approached.

I know, this does not guarantee anything... but if you were at the scene with me, you would agree with a high level of confidence that they first saw us when we were already parked. This was pretty obvious to me.

So there's no probable cause for "picking up".. "driving around".. and "dropping off." The only reason they stopped us is because they drove past our car and noticed those two people in there.

That was enough reason for them to put my friend in handcuffs and search my car without my permission.
 

mkl

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rady8um wrote:
It's no different in the OP's situation:

Stop indrug area+

pick up drug dealers+

circle block+

drop off drug dealers=

reasonable suspicion that a crime was just commited.


I see where you are coming from. I guess my thinking is just that:



Stop in "drug" area: Nothing illegal.

Pick up people who are suspected of being drug dealers: Nothing illegal

Circle block: Not illegal.

Drop off drop dealers: Not illegal.

To me, 4 legal activities while suspicious do not add up to getting to search me with a warrant. There just needs to be something else like "Saw what reasonablyappeared to be drugs being exchanged" or "detected odor of drugs".

In your mind does:

Man in high crime area +

Man with exposed firearm +

There is a bank nearby that has been robbed in the past =

Cops get to detain him and search his car to make sure he isn't going to rob a bank?

What if the man was known to have a previous arrest for attempted robbery?



To me, a whole bunch of LEGAL activity never adds up to a warrantless search. I can understand the frustration , since it seems logical that someone at that place and time doing that activity is most likely doing something wrong. However, I feel the government should only observe, unless they have evidence that something illegal is actually occuring.

I am not speaking from a cop or lawyers persepective of what is actually legal, I am speaking from my opinion on person freedom.
 
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