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Thread: San Diego LEO shoots woman and son in Oceanside - Update thread

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I think many of us found this story to be rather interesting. Unfortunately the original thread was closed due to the behavior of a couple members, again. If you want to bash on LEOs please go away and don't post in this thread. Please note also, that this thread does not involve or have any relationship with any known cases in Chicago.


    Couple of updates. It will be interesting to see where this goes next. There is quite a bit of posturing on both sides and I'm not catching all the nuance as to why and to what end as I think that it goes beyond the obvious motivation on either side.


    Shooting victim gets new attorney

    Police wrap up investigation, says councilman

    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    could you link the original article? I searched and didn't find the original thread, did it get deleted or just closed? (or is that the same thing on these forums, I haven't been around long enough to know, sorry!)

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    ScottyT wrote:
    could you link the original article? I searched and didn't find the original thread, did it get deleted or just closed? (or is that the same thing on these forums, I haven't been around long enough to know, sorry!)
    Here's the original thread:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/9579.html

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    I do not have a problem with someone getting photographs of the vehicles or the 911 calls.

    But I am guessing that since she is refusing to give her statement thedepartmentis going to refuse to just give her what her lawyer wants.

    She refused to give her statement early on and nowshe might be willing to speak IFshe get something first.

    I am not sure I would believe it.

    Thanks for the update and I look forward to the full details!!

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    If they made the cop look good, the 911 tapes would have been released by now.
    The cops are doing the modified, limited hangout thing now. As was said in comments to one of the linked stories, they hope to release this when nobody's watching.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    PD relases details
    SAN DIEGO ---- After nearly a month of investigation, the Oceanside Police Department released further details Thursday on events leading to an off-duty San Diego police officer's shooting of a woman and her 8-year-old son in a shopping center parking lot March 15.

    A written statement released by the department Thursday afternoon reads as follows:

    "On March 15, 2008, at approximately 9:15 p.m., off-duty San Diego Police Department Officer Franklin White and his wife were driving southbound on Old Grove Road in their private vehicle. At the same time, Rachel Silva drove her own car from the parking lot of a Shell station onto Old Grove Road. In the front passenger seat was her 8-year-old son. Based on a statement from an independent witness, Ms. Silva’s car almost collided with the White’s and Officer White had to swerve to avoid a collision.

    Officer White drove along Old Grove Road and turned into the parking lot of a Lowe’s store. According to a second independent witness, Ms. Silva was tailgating White’s car, revving the engine, and yelling and screaming as she followed Officer White and his wife in the parking lot. Officer White’s wife dialed 911 on her cell phone to report an aggressive driver. Officer White stopped his car. Ms. Silva pulled alongside the driver’s side of the White’s vehicle, and stopped.

    Officer White displayed a handgun, and then backed his car away from Ms. Silva’s car, coming to a complete stop. Ms. Silva dialed 911 and reported a man with a gun. Ms. Silva then reversed her vehicle in the direction of the Whites’ car, sideswiping it. Officer White fired five shots toward Ms. Silva’s vehicle.

    The first shot shattered the front driver’s side window of the White’s vehicle, and entered the closed, darkly-tinted right front passenger window of Ms. Silva’s vehicle. The other four shots entered the windshield of Ms. Silva’s car. All five shots were fired within a few seconds. One round struck Ms. Silva’s son in his knee, two others struck her in her arm."
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    WOW!!! I can see now why she did not want to make a statement.

    The details were obtained from people other than those involved.

    So it appears that the intended target was the driver behind a dark tinted window and the passenger was unintentional.

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    It'll be interesting to see how all this shakes out... at first glance it seems like excessive force, but what would I do if someone was possibly in the process of trying to kill my family with a car?
    I tend to give LEO's the benifit of the doubt until all the facts are known.

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    Holy double road rage batman! While neither driver acted responsibly - note I said DRIVER - one of the drivers chose to escalate the situation further than the other. Which driver was it?

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    bohdi wrote:
    Holy double road rage batman! While neither driver acted responsibly - note I said DRIVER - one of the drivers chose to escalate the situation further than the other. Which driver was it?
    Sounds to me like the lady was out of control....

    She almost hit the cop and then followed him into the parking lot. She then stopped next to him for some reason.

    Tinted windows so the cop has no clue who is in the vehicle.

    He shows he is armed and backs up to get awaynot wanting any more problems.

    She should have driven off but the backs up.. and hits his car.

    By now he has to think this is not good and this person is not going to go away. She stepped it up another level hitting his car that seems to be on purpose.


    • She tailgated him
    • She followed him into the parking lot
    • She parked right next to him
    • She backs up in his direction
    She was not trying to get away.... she wanted to be there.

    This would make me a little nervous.....


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    Have to agree with LEO 229 here. She did seem to be out of control, if the account is true. Shots fired? Not enough info to agree or disagree with his decision to use deadly force.
    I do know that sitting down and calmly reading a bit of information is vastly different than being in the situation. Again, it will be interesting to see all the facts laid out...

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    The first shot shattered the front driver’s side window of the White’s vehicle, and entered the closed, darkly-tinted right front passenger window of Ms. Silva’s vehicle. The other four shots entered the windshield of Ms. Silva’s car. All five shots were fired within a few seconds. One round struck Ms. Silva’s son in his knee, two others struck her in her arm."
    edited for clarity - misread part of the statement.

    Was it only the passenger window that was darkly-tinted? Did he get out of his car to fire the shots? If not, I wonder about the trajectory that would allow him to shoot the boy in the knee. If so, I wonder about the wisdom of leaving a mobile hunk of metal to face down a mobile hunk of metal on foot.

    Obviously, the implication here is that due to dark-tinting on the passenger window, White couldn't discern that there was a child in the passenger seat.

    Also, what about the "know your target and what is behind it" admonition? If he was shooting through a darkly-tinted window through which he could not discern who was in the vehicle as appears to be implied, was he negligent to use lethal force? He was inside a functional, mobile vehicle and nothing in the statement indicates that he was pinned in. This raises a lot of new questions. Still not ready to draw conclusions, but the whole thing is odd.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    According to a second independent witness, Ms. Silva was tailgating White’s car, revving the engine, and yelling and screaming as she followed Officer White and his wife in the parking lot.

    i'd like to know who this is.

    Silva pulled alongside the driver’s side of the White’s vehicle, and stopped.

    I note that there is no reference to which side of her car is alongside of his.

    Officer White displayed a handgun, and then backed his car away from Ms. Silva’s car, coming to a complete stop.

    we still don't know if the cars were facing each other or facing same direction.

    Ms. Silva then reversed her vehicle in the direction of the Whites’ car, sideswiping it.

    now we know that the vehicles were facing same direction, along side each other from above.
    The first shot shattered the front driver’s side window of the White’s vehicle, and entered the closed, darkly-tinted right front passenger window of Ms. Silva’s vehicle. The other four shots entered the windshield of Ms. Silva’s car.
    this statement attempts to imply that the officer followed training protocols and reacted appropriately, but closer examination of the statements reveal that the statements are meant to confuse the readers/citizens in to thinking that the officer did everything as he should have while hiding the fact that the cars weren't lined up the way they were stated.

    i'm calling BS on this 'official' statement.

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    What construes escalation here though? Pulling up next to another car and stopping, or brandishing the weapon?

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    DKSuddeth wrote:
    now we know that the vehicles were facing same direction, along side each other from above.
    The first shot shattered the front driver’s side window of the White’s vehicle, and entered the closed, darkly-tinted right front passenger window of Ms. Silva’s vehicle. The other four shots entered the windshield of Ms. Silva’s car.

    The way it reads to me, the vehicles CAN'T have been facing the same direction. they would have to be facing oposing directions if the first shot shattered the front drivers side window right?

    It's like when you see two state officers in the center median, and they are facing opposite sides with drivers side windows together. My dad use to call it the BS position. Being that he figured the officers were more interested in talking than working.

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    mmdkyoung123 wrote:
    DKSuddeth wrote:
    now we know that the vehicles were facing same direction, along side each other from above.
    The first shot shattered the front driver’s side window of the White’s vehicle, and entered the closed, darkly-tinted right front passenger window of Ms. Silva’s vehicle. The other four shots entered the windshield of Ms. Silva’s car.

    The way it reads to me, the vehicles CAN'T have been facing the same direction. they would have to be facing oposing directions if the first shot shattered the front drivers side window right?

    It's like when you see two state officers in the center median, and they are facing opposite sides with drivers side windows together. My dad use to call it the BS position. Being that he figured the officers were more interested in talking than working.
    Nope, sounds to me like Mr. White shot out HIS OWN drivers side window, which then went through the passenger side window of Ms. Silva's vehicle. They were both facing the same direction. Ms. Silva apparently began backing when seeing the brandished weapon, and in her haste grazed Mr. White's vehicle. The grazing probably created a moment of hesitationin vehicle movementin which Mr. White, feeling the graze, fired the shot. Ms. Silva continued to back up at that point and Mr. White followed the retreating vehicle with his weapon from his driver's side window firing more shots into Ms. Silva's windshield.

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    deepdiver wrote:
    Did he get out of his car to fire the shots? If not, I wonder about the trajectory that would allow him to shoot the boy in the knee.
    Maybe that was the first shot and was deflected downward by the window it shattered? The deflection probably wouldn't have been huge, but if the bullet was already on a somewhat downward path, it could have deflected further downward a few degrees. On the other hand, the story claims that the first shot "entered" the closed passenger-side window, which doesn't fit with that being the bullet that struck the boy.

    There's really not much information here.

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    Nelson_Muntz wrote:
    mmdkyoung123 wrote:
    DKSuddeth wrote:
    now we know that the vehicles were facing same direction, along side each other from above.
    The first shot shattered the front driver’s side window of the White’s vehicle, and entered the closed, darkly-tinted right front passenger window of Ms. Silva’s vehicle. The other four shots entered the windshield of Ms. Silva’s car.

    The way it reads to me, the vehicles CAN'T have been facing the same direction. they would have to be facing oposing directions if the first shot shattered the front drivers side window right?

    It's like when you see two state officers in the center median, and they are facing opposite sides with drivers side windows together. My dad use to call it the BS position. Being that he figured the officers were more interested in talking than working.
    Nope, sounds to me like Mr. White shot out HIS OWN drivers side window, which then went through the passenger side window of Ms. Silva's vehicle. They were both facing the same direction. Ms. Silva apparently began backing when seeing the brandished weapon, and in her haste grazed Mr. White's vehicle. The grazing probably created a moment of hesitationin vehicle movementin which Mr. White, feeling the graze, fired the shot. Ms. Silva continued to back up at that point and Mr. White followed the retreating vehicle with his weapon from his driver's side window firing more shots into Ms. Silva's windshield.
    You're right Nelson, Missed the part about it being White's driver side window. I guess it seems to me like a catch 22. An officer fires into a car that has just struck his vehicle after he showed his handgun. (did he say "I am an officer" or identify himself somehow? or just show his gun?) He says he is in fear for his life. Now here is my question. If this were the EXACT same facts whit a civillian in stead of officer White, would the civiliian be put on paid leave and have nothing have happened to him yet?? Don't flame me, I am NOT bashing police, never have. I am just curious about why it is OK for an offduty police officer to do this if it wouldn't be for a citizen.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Nelson_Muntz wrote:
    mmdkyoung123 wrote:
    DKSuddeth wrote:
    now we know that the vehicles were facing same direction, along side each other from above.
    The first shot shattered the front driver’s side window of the White’s vehicle, and entered the closed, darkly-tinted right front passenger window of Ms. Silva’s vehicle. The other four shots entered the windshield of Ms. Silva’s car.

    The way it reads to me, the vehicles CAN'T have been facing the same direction. they would have to be facing oposing directions if the first shot shattered the front drivers side window right?

    It's like when you see two state officers in the center median, and they are facing opposite sides with drivers side windows together. My dad use to call it the BS position. Being that he figured the officers were more interested in talking than working.
    Nope, sounds to me like Mr. White shot out HIS OWN drivers side window, which then went through the passenger side window of Ms. Silva's vehicle. They were both facing the same direction. Ms. Silva apparently began backing when seeing the brandished weapon, and in her haste grazed Mr. White's vehicle. The grazing probably created a moment of hesitationin vehicle movementin which Mr. White, feeling the graze, fired the shot. Ms. Silva continued to back up at that point and Mr. White followed the retreating vehicle with his weapon from his driver's side window firing more shots into Ms. Silva's windshield.


    Wow my reading comprehension skills plummet when I am exhausted and distracted. Somehow I completely read over "of the White's vehicle".

    Nelson Muntz's and Swillden's explanations combined make sense to me for how this probably went down.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Nelson_Muntz wrote:
    mmdkyoung123 wrote:
    DKSuddeth wrote:
    now we know that the vehicles were facing same direction, along side each other from above.
    The first shot shattered the front driver’s side window of the White’s vehicle, and entered the closed, darkly-tinted right front passenger window of Ms. Silva’s vehicle. The other four shots entered the windshield of Ms. Silva’s car.

    The way it reads to me, the vehicles CAN'T have been facing the same direction. they would have to be facing oposing directions if the first shot shattered the front drivers side window right?

    It's like when you see two state officers in the center median, and they are facing opposite sides with drivers side windows together. My dad use to call it the BS position. Being that he figured the officers were more interested in talking than working.
    Nope, sounds to me like Mr. White shot out HIS OWN drivers side window, which then went through the passenger side window of Ms. Silva's vehicle. They were both facing the same direction. Ms. Silva apparently began backing when seeing the brandished weapon, and in her haste grazed Mr. White's vehicle. The grazing probably created a moment of hesitationin vehicle movementin which Mr. White, feeling the graze, fired the shot. Ms. Silva continued to back up at that point and Mr. White followed the retreating vehicle with his weapon from his driver's side window firing more shots into Ms. Silva's windshield.
    The problem is, if the report is taken at face value, he (White) backed up first, after brandhishing, in what could be characterized as an attempt to remove himself from the situation (i.e. a "show of force" through the brandishment, then leave). Then she (Silva) backed up into him.

    This would still fit a round exiting his driver's side window and entering her passenger side window. Depending on where the cars halted, or if they moved between shot 1 and shots 2 - 5, if she did not stop when backing into him, but "through" him (whether grazing his vehicle or pushing his vehicle out of the way), then I could see the shot directions moving from "passenger front" side to "front passenger" side, placing the kid (in the passenger seat) in the line of fire between the two drivers' seats, at least for one shot.

    One round struck Ms. Silva’s son in his knee, two others struck her in her arm."
    Speculation: maybe the one that hit his knee was Shot 1, through the side windows, or one of the early shots throught her windshield, as the line of fire moved based on (what is most probably) her vehicle movement.

    I don't know the local laws (I am not Admitted in California) so I don't know if the facts concerning her vehicular movement (leaving aside his actions) would constitute vehicular assault, attempted murder, or some other charge. If she made no statement to the police regarding it - and such lack of statement was based on Counsel's instruction, it could be that her inaction to make a statement was in preserving her Fifth Amendment self-incrimination protection. Or Not. I'm only reacting to what is in this thread.

    Nothing in the above message constitutes Legal Advice. Material is provided for informational/entertainment or other purposes and is not intended to constitute or be relied upon as Legal Advice, nor is it tailored to any specific factual situation. This is not an offer to form an attorney-client relationship. This is not advertising, nor intended to be such. While I am an attorney, I am NOT YOUR attorney.

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    Moral of the story: calm down when you drive... being an "aggressive driver" could very well get you shot.

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    The REAL moral here is: "Never bring a car to a gunfight!!"

    She's obviously agressive and should NOT have chased as she did and that was wrong especially with her child in the car.

    However, I'd bet dollars to donuts (sorry LEO 229!) that he did NOT identify himself as a LEO and only brandished his gun, explaining her "man with a gun call"! Seriously now, people just don't make911 "man with a gun calls" against uniformed or identifiedpolice.

    Given her agitated and agressive state, I doubt that she was in any sort of pro-active mode, she was completely reactive at that point and not thinking "how can I cover my ass with a 911 call"... Not in the heat of battle.

    If the only thing he did was show her her gun, it's very possible that IN HER MINDhe was just some guy pulling a gun on her and she then used the only weapon at her disposal....her car. That or she just freaked out and the sideswipe was unintentional while trying to get the hell out of Dodge.

    As deanimator already mentioned and taking into the above, the delay in releasing the 911 tapes just doesn't look good at this point.



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    BobCav wrote:
    The REAL moral here is: "Never bring a car to a gunfight!!"

    She's obviously agressive and should NOT have chased as she did and that was wrong especially with her child in the car.

    However, I'd bet dollars to donuts (sorry LEO 229!) that he did NOT identify himself as a LEO and only brandished his gun, explaining her "man with a gun call"! Seriously now, people just don't make911 "man with a gun calls" against uniformed or identifiedpolice.

    Given her agitated and agressive state, I doubt that she was in any sort of pro-active mode, she was completely reactive at that point and not thinking "how can I cover my ass with a 911 call"... Not in the heat of battle.

    If the only thing he did was show her her gun, it's very possible that IN HER MINDhe was just some guy pulling a gun on her and she then used the only weapon at her disposal....her car. That or she just freaked out and the sideswipe was unintentional while trying to get the hell out of Dodge.

    As deanimator already mentioned and taking into the above, the delay in releasing the 911 tapes just doesn't look good at this point.

    It looks to me that she lost control. In response, he brandished rather than identified. Why would he show her the gun and NOT the badge? Trying to be a "big man"? If so, he put her in reasonable fear of life and limb.

    It appears to be shaping up to be a case of inappropriate behavior by the woman, compounded by the cop inappropriately responding in such a way as to make himself look like a criminal, prompting a panic reaction from the woman to which the cop responded even more inappropriately.

    Reminds me of the Sean Bell shooting in NYC. You pull a gun on me without identifying yourself as a cop and I INSTANTLY use my vehicle as a weapon. One wonders whether cops in the jurisdiction are taught that situations should be DE-escalated when possible, and whether this particular cop was paying attention. Start pulling guns on people without properly identifying yourself and pretty much ANYTHING is possible after that. Do it to me and I run you down without hesitation. That IS after all how the Army taught me to deal with a near vehicular ambush.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    BobCav wrote:
    The REAL moral here is: "Never bring a car to a gunfight!!"

    She's obviously agressive and should NOT have chased as she did and that was wrong especially with her child in the car.

    However, I'd bet dollars to donuts (sorry LEO 229!) that he did NOT identify himself as a LEO and only brandished his gun, explaining her "man with a gun call"! Seriously now, people just don't make911 "man with a gun calls" against uniformed or identifiedpolice.

    Given her agitated and agressive state, I doubt that she was in any sort of pro-active mode, she was completely reactive at that point and not thinking "how can I cover my ass with a 911 call"... Not in the heat of battle.

    If the only thing he did was show her her gun, it's very possible that IN HER MINDhe was just some guy pulling a gun on her and she then used the only weapon at her disposal....her car. That or she just freaked out and the sideswipe was unintentional while trying to get the hell out of Dodge.

    As deanimator already mentioned and taking into the above, the delay in releasing the 911 tapes just doesn't look good at this point.
    No problem Bob... I would actually agree withyou.

    It would appear that he may not have displayed his badge but if he does as I do.... the gun is easily accessible and the badge is in the wallet and I am sitting on it while seat-belted in. Not an easy task to get both out and drive.

    He needs a third hand to get rid of the seat-belt and pull out his wallet so he can display his badge.

    But....

    I believe his first priority was to put up a defense wall and he was not actually acting under any police authority at that moment. Just as any OCer would do if they felt their family was being threatened. He pulled his gun on someone he suspected was about to cause great harm. She did follow him and pull up next to him.I do not think she wanted to comment on how nice his car was.

    He only needed to display his badge if he planned to make an arrest or use police powers. I say that in his current situation and the totality of everything.... he was acting in a way to defend his life and the life of his wife and having to decide on having a gun ready or spending time getting out a badge.... I am goingwith the gun first.

    Once she saw the gun she should have sped away..... she did not and instead.. backed into his car. To me.. all bets are nowoff. This person wants to cause harm and will have to be stopped. I have no idea if they have a gun and plan on shooting me and my family.

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