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Thread: First solo OC

  1. #1
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    Well, I had my first solo OC experience today, at the Midvale Wal-Mart. I was fully prepared to be asked to leave, as I knew they had that right (turns out they do have a corporate policy against open display of firearms, btw). The experience turned out a lot more interesting...

    About the electronics section, a guy passes me, and I move my cart out of the way. He was an middle-age gentleman with a white "ninja" sash tied around his head. He passes by again, looks at me, I look at him, and he nods and walks along. I thought maybe he was a carrier as well. Well as I walk around, doing a little more shopping, I notice him keeping an eye on me. I would be on one end of the aisle, him on the other. At one point I saw him on his cell phone. He kept ending up in every section of the store I was in. I'm thinking to myself, "Great. Wonder what will come of this?"

    So I'm in the hunting and fishing area (ironically enough!) and I catch a LEO in my peripheral vision. I turn around and there are three of them. One of them began to ask me what I was carrying, and why, and I responded with "Ruger SR9" and "for personal defense". He proceeds to tell me how it should be concealed and I am not allowed to open carry my weapon. Right here I knew I was dealing with someone ignorant. His attitude was full of ego as well. I explained to him that I am not breaking any laws, and that I have a right to bear arms. He asks to see my weapon, asks if it's loaded (no CFP yet, so I complied) and I informed him of Utah's definition of a loaded firearm, because I'm sure he didn't know. So I'm asked to go outside of the store so as not to create a scene (he wanted to run my DL also), and I comply. I'm not really the type to give LEOs a hassle. While the one with the big ego was looking up laws and running my DL, I talk to the other two, who seem a lot more level-headed. I explain to them the laws, and preemption, etc... until Mr. Ego comes back. He says I'm lucky because he knows I'm breaking the law, but he can't find it at this time, but he justifies it as "Well you just don't see people walking around with guns". I tell him the state gives me the right, and he mis-quotes the state's constitution to only say "on residence, place of business, and personal vehicle". I didn't bother arguing it. I said, "Well when you find this law, will you please inform me? I'll give you my phone number." He agrees, and warns me not to carry in the city of Midvale, as he's positive it's against the law. He says also that if he's wrong, he'll personally apologize. Yeah, right. I say "Yes, sir" and when they leave, it goes right back on my waist.

    As far as Wal-Mart goes, they just told me not to OC inside the store or they will report me as trespassing and I won't be allowed in any other Wal-Mart, blah blah blah.

    Despite all this, my confidence in OCing has NOT been dissuaded. I shall continue, and do what I can to avoid places that won't allow it. But damn, wally world sells cheap ammo!

    So... where shall I go next?

  2. #2
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    Ask the manager at Walmart to produce a written copy of their company policy. Walmart's policy is that if it legal it is allowed in their store.

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    Wal-Mart has a company policy of allowing what state and local laws allow, which in Utah means you CAN Open Carry. If any Wal-Mart employee tells you otherwise, you need to ask them to call their District Manager for clarification. If they refuse, get their name and call him yourself. I can't find it right now, but his name and phone number are posted somewhere in one of the forums.

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    Great job! Talking to the law can be pretty nerve racking, but it sounds like you handled it well. I agree with everyone else. Contact the manager of that Wal-Mart, and find out who the District Manager is. Don't try to deal with the store manager, because they don't care. I did this in Utah county and got the green light for open carry from Jim Curtis.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  5. #5
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    Poor Walmart! It seems the first place a lot of us choose for our first open carry is . . . Walmart! With all the times their store or district managers mjst have dealt with open carry they'd all have a clue what the real policy is.

  6. #6
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    Venzor wrote:
    Well, I had my first solo OC experience today, at the Midvale Wal-Mart. I was fully prepared to be asked to leave, as I knew they had that right (turns out they do have a corporate policy against open display of firearms, btw). The experience turned out a lot more interesting...

    About the electronics section, a guy passes me, and I move my cart out of the way. He was an middle-age gentleman with a white "ninja" sash tied around his head. He passes by again, looks at me, I look at him, and he nods and walks along. I thought maybe he was a carrier as well. Well as I walk around, doing a little more shopping, I notice him keeping an eye on me. I would be on one end of the aisle, him on the other. At one point I saw him on his cell phone. He kept ending up in every section of the store I was in. I'm thinking to myself, "Great. Wonder what will come of this?"

    So I'm in the hunting and fishing area (ironically enough!) and I catch a LEO in my peripheral vision. I turn around and there are three of them. One of them began to ask me what I was carrying, and why, and I responded with "Ruger SR9" and "for personal defense". He proceeds to tell me how it should be concealed and I am not allowed to open carry my weapon. Right here I knew I was dealing with someone ignorant. His attitude was full of ego as well. I explained to him that I am not breaking any laws, and that I have a right to bear arms. He asks to see my weapon, asks if it's loaded (no CFP yet, so I complied) and I informed him of Utah's definition of a loaded firearm, because I'm sure he didn't know. So I'm asked to go outside of the store so as not to create a scene (he wanted to run my DL also), and I comply. I'm not really the type to give LEOs a hassle. While the one with the big ego was looking up laws and running my DL, I talk to the other two, who seem a lot more level-headed. I explain to them the laws, and preemption, etc... until Mr. Ego comes back. He says I'm lucky because he knows I'm breaking the law, but he can't find it at this time, but he justifies it as "Well you just don't see people walking around with guns". I tell him the state gives me the right, and he mis-quotes the state's constitution to only say "on residence, place of business, and personal vehicle". I didn't bother arguing it. I said, "Well when you find this law, will you please inform me? I'll give you my phone number." He agrees, and warns me not to carry in the city of Midvale, as he's positive it's against the law. He says also that if he's wrong, he'll personally apologize. Yeah, right. I say "Yes, sir" and when they leave, it goes right back on my waist.

    As far as Wal-Mart goes, they just told me not to OC inside the store or they will report me as trespassing and I won't be allowed in any other Wal-Mart, blah blah blah.

    Despite all this, my confidence in OCing has NOT been dissuaded. I shall continue, and do what I can to avoid places that won't allow it. But damn, wally world sells cheap ammo!

    So... where shall I go next?
    I'm sorry about the experience. But it was overall good due to the fact that you were courteous all the way.

    I OC at Wal-mart on about 56th W and 35th. We usually go there and shop. The last two weeks we have spent about 2 hours every time there. I went there a few days ago and was at the gun counter. Nothing happened. I even held a conversation with the clerk.

    I OC at the Wal-mart @ Redwood and 56th. The one @ 62nd South and way out there on the west side.

    Never had any problems. Wal-marts Policy complies with State Law.

    TJ

    P.S Midvale Wal-mart ??? What's the address ??? I wanna go there if I haven't been yet.. Oh, well...maybe I can get to know Midvale PD just as I know WVC PDD.S

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    Venzor,

    Check your Private Messages.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  8. #8
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    UTOC-45-44 wrote
    I'm sorry about the experience. But it was overall good due to the fact that you were courteous all the way.

    I OC at Wal-mart on about 56th W and 35th. We usually go there and shop. The last two weeks we have spent about 2 hours every time there. I went there a few days ago and was at the gun counter. Nothing happened. I even held a conversation with the clerk.

    I OC at the Wal-mart @ Redwood and 56th. The one @ 62nd South and way out there on the west side.

    Never had any problems. Wal-marts Policy complies with State Law.

    TJ

    P.S Midvale Wal-mart ??? What's the address ??? I wanna go there if I haven't been yet.. Oh, well...maybe I can get to know Midvale PD just as I know WVC PDD.S
    It's at Fort Union (72nd S) and about 13th E. Kind of a messy shopping center as far as traffic is concerned. If coming from the freeway on 72nd, you can enter any of the parking lots on the right after you cross 7th, they all connect. Wal-mart is toward the back.

    I was talking to some of the associates, asking where things were and all, I think it was customer complaints and they didn't know how to handle it. No excuse though, if they're disobeying company policy.

    EDIT: Clarified directions

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    Sorry to hear this, but you handled it very well. I also OC at Walmart in Layton, no problem so far, will probably be there today as well, lol

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    Bravo Venzor! Be sure to let us know when you get that apology from the cop.:?

    It is so sad that they can be ignorant about an issue like this. Every time we have an incident of this nature, we should write to the Chief of the city you had the experience in, asking him to educate his officers. This guy's letter from Missouri is a great example:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum33/9551.html



  11. #11
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    While I think you handled yourself well, I don’t agree that you handled the police officers or the Wal-Mart staff all that well. Whenever the police arrive, immediately ask, ”Am I being detained?”. If no, wish them a nice day and move along. If they are detaining you, immediately ask, ”For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?”. Memorize those two questions. Read and know the rules of Terry stops. The officer admitted to you that he couldn’t articulate a law that you were breaking, thus his detaining you was illegal. You should write a short and strong letter to his supervisor pointing this out.



    As for Wal-Mart; they are notorious for not knowing their own policies. Contact the regional manager or the regional head of security. They will likely not want to discuss the issue in writing so call them. Inform them that the manager there publicly humiliated you for engaging in a lawful activity. Don’t just sit back and take it, if you’re going to carry openly, you have to engage when you are wronged.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    While I think you handled yourself well, I don’t agree that you handled the police officers or the Wal-Mart staff all that well. Whenever the police arrive, immediately ask, ”Am I being detained?”. If no, wish them a nice day and move along. If they are detaining you, immediately ask, ”For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?”. Memorize those two questions. Read and know the rules of Terry stops. The officer admitted to you that he couldn’t articulate a law that you were breaking, thus his detaining you was illegal. You should write a short and strong letter to his supervisor pointing this out.



    As for Wal-Mart; they are notorious for not knowing their own policies. Contact the regional manager or the regional head of security. They will likely not want to discuss the issue in writing so call them. Inform them that the manager there publicly humiliated you for engaging in a lawful activity. Don’t just sit back and take it, if you’re going to carry openly, you have to engage when you are wronged.
    +1 for the post. My bravo was more for the fact that he just started OCing (same day as me actually!), more than the way he acted with the officers, though he did handle himself very well.

    I just read up on Terry Stops and was pleasantly surprised. I especially like the part about the stop having to be based on “specific and articulable facts”. I have used the "am I being detained" question before, but that was when I was merely walking to the store at 3 am, before I started carrying.

    I am looking forward to OCing tonight. My wife is working a temp job at a trade show and her employers (from Canada and France!) are coming out to dinner with us. Show them what it means to have and exercise my right to bear arms! I am sure they will take home stories of the "wild west." Downtown Salt Lake City is not like the rest of the state, it is FAR more liberal, so I am looking forward to OCing downtown this evening!

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    GOOD JOB BUDDY! i had the same thing happen to me, except it was an off duty cop who i actually ASKED to call the police (thank GOD payson PD knows the laws, hope it made the off duty provo cop feel like sh**) and it was at walmart, go figure!

    weve complained to walmart (ive been asked to leave 2 times) and my friend tucker (rocknsnow) called walmart complaining about how they asked me to leave... and there isnt any part of the policy requiring us to leave. the time the store asked me to leave (not when the cops showed up) i had on my 357 ruger mag, with the 25 round western belt on, so that mighta made me stick out alot more LOL

    but now i face a more difficult opposition... i have 3 facial piercings since we KNOW that OC is legal, would it be considered discrimination if i was charged? (now that i have piercings...) however, when i do carry, im not wearing all black like i was at the OC meet, i just wear jeans, clean looking clothes, etc.

    glad to see more and more pistol packers!!! KEEP IT UP!

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    Sorry to hear about the hassle, and I hope it does not cause doubts of you OC.

    That is the same place I OC'ed for the first time (About a week ago too) and had no trouble at all. I didnt spend too much time (25 minutes?). Did you get the officers name?


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    Mainsail wrote:
    SNIP The officer admitted to you that he couldn’t articulate a law that you were breaking, thus his detaining you was illegal. You should write a short and strong letter to his supervisor pointing this out.
    Officer Egocould have had reasonable suspicion based on the 911 call.

    That suspicion, if any,may have evaporated mid-way through any detention. And Officer Ego may have continued the detention too long. But we just don't know what the dispatcher told him.



    Separately, I'm a big fan of the first thing to say, "Officer, I realize you're just doing your job, butI do not consent to this encounter." Realize you can refuse consent to any search or seizure, and a detention is a seizure of your person.

    Refusing consent to the enccounterpre-empts any police dodges to, "Am I being detained?" If you watched that Border Patrol checkpoint video, or read some forum postings here, you'll know cops love to dodge the question.Refusing consent puts the ball unavoidably in his court. He has to do something with it. He can't dodge withoutleaving himself open to further questions from you. If he asks one more question over top of your refusal, he just proved its a detention (my opinion).

    If he asks one more question beyond your refusal, you can go straightto, "Why am I being detained?" If he says you aren't, then you can say, "Have a nice day,"depending on whether his tone indicates its fairly safe for you to move away. Or, you can just point out that you already refused consent to theencounter, "Why are you still asking me questions in an authoritative tone against myconsent if I'm not being detained?" Or, "Continuing to ask questions in an authoritative tone over my refusal proves it is a detention. Why am I being detained?"

    If continues tododge and ask questions, you can just invoke, "Officer, I realize you arejust doing your job, but I have nothing to say in the absence of my attorney." Or cooperate, whicheveryou thinkbest for the exact police officer in front of you at that exact time.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
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    Citizen wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    SNIP The officer admitted to you that he couldn’t articulate a law that you were breaking, thus his detaining you was illegal. You should write a short and strong letter to his supervisor pointing this out.
    Officer Egocould have had reasonable suspicion based on the 911 call.

    That suspicion, if any,may have evaporated mid-way through any detention. And Officer Ego may have continued the detention too long. But we just don't know what the dispatcher told him.



    Separately, I'm a big fan of the first thing to say, "Officer, I realize you're just doing your job, butI do not consent to this encounter." Realize you can refuse consent to any search or seizure, and a detention is a seizure of your person.

    Refusing consent to the enccounterpre-empts any police dodges to, "Am I being detained?" If you watched that Border Patrol checkpoint video, or read some forum postings here, you'll know cops love to dodge the question.Refusing consent puts the ball unavoidably in his court. He has to do something with it. He can't dodge withoutleaving himself open to further questions from you. If he asks one more question over top of your refusal, he just proved its a detention (my opinion).

    If he asks one more question beyond your refusal, you can go straightto, "Why am I being detained?" If he says you aren't, then you can say, "Have a nice day,"depending on whether his tone indicates its fairly safe for you to move away. Or, you can just point out that you already refused consent to theencounter, "Why are you still asking me questions in an authoritative tone against myconsent if I'm not being detained?" Or, "Continuing to ask questions in an authoritative tone over my refusal proves it is a detention. Why am I being detained?"

    If continues tododge and ask questions, you can just invoke, "Officer, I realize you arejust doing your job, but I have nothing to say in the absence of my attorney." Or cooperate, whicheveryou thinkbest for the exact police officer in front of you at that exact time.
    I think you’re confusing ‘suspicion’ with the legal requirement of ‘reasonable articuable suspicion’. Yes, carrying a gun into Wal-Mart in the wee hours of the morning may certainly seem suspicious to some, but it doesn’t meet the legal threshold required of a Terry stop. There is absolutely no language in the law, and nothing in an officer’s training, that requires a citizen to consent to any encounter with the police. The language they speak includes phrases like; ‘seizure’, ‘probable cause’ and ‘reasonable articuable suspicion’. There are three levels to a police encounter;
    A friendly chat,
    seizure (based on reasonable articuable suspicion), and
    arrest (based on probable cause).


    It doesn’t matter what the dispatcher told him. Let’s say for argument, the dispatcher told the officer that you were waving your handgun around in the bedding department. The officer responds, and asks to see your ID. Your first question, “Am I being detained?” will be answered in a straightforward, “Yes.” Then you can ask for what crime are you being detained, and he will tell you they had a call about you waving your gun around. Your detainment, based on the information the officer received, is reasonable and proper. He is investigating a crime. It doesn’t matter if you don’t consent to the encounter; if he has reasonable articuable suspicion, you’re going to be detained and it is legal.

    Now, for argument, say someone called the police because they saw the gun on your belt. The officer responds and sees the same thing. Does he have a reasonable artiuable suspicion that there is a crime afoot? No. In all likelihood he will still initiate an encounter with you; your ‘consent’ notwithstanding. Those two questions will put the officer on the defensive because now he has to justify, even if only to himself, why he’s seized you. (Tactic #1 in the police arsenal is intimidation.) He knows that if he cannot articulate a crime of which you might be guilty, he cannot hinder your departure without losing his official immunity.

    If the officer is dodging the question, it means he has nothing to hold you there. He also knows that the more you talk and debate with him, the better his chances he will be able to find something he can later claim he knew all along.

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    Venzor wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote
    I'm sorry about the experience. But it was overall good due to the fact that you were courteous all the way.

    I OC at Wal-mart on about 56th W and 35th. We usually go there and shop. The last two weeks we have spent about 2 hours every time there. I went there a few days ago and was at the gun counter. Nothing happened. I even held a conversation with the clerk.

    I OC at the Wal-mart @ Redwood and 56th. The one @ 62nd South and way out there on the west side.

    Never had any problems. Wal-marts Policy complies with State Law.

    TJ

    P.S Midvale Wal-mart ??? What's the address ??? I wanna go there if I haven't been yet.. Oh, well...maybe I can get to know Midvale PD just as I know WVC PDD.S
    It's at Fort Union (72nd S) and about 13th E. Kind of a messy shopping center as far as traffic is concerned. If coming from the freeway on 72nd, you can enter any of the parking lots on the right after you cross 7th, they all connect. Wal-mart is toward the back.

    I was talking to some of the associates, asking where things were and all, I think it was customer complaints and they didn't know how to handle it. No excuse though, if they're disobeying company policy.

    EDIT: Clarified directions
    I've OC'D at that Walmart twice now with no problems.

    Actually I went over right after our sweet tomatoes dinner the other night and wandered around for about 20 minutes before hunting down an employee to get some ammo from the locked case.

    Nobody batted an eye, I talked to two different employees for about 5 minutes each, and at least 3 others saw my gun.

    You handled it very well, and if you get any info from the district manager, let me know since I frequent the same Walmart.



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    My wife and I shop at that Walmart all of the time. We live in Midvale (roughly 8000 S 700 W) and are right down the street from the Midvale Police Station.

    Good job!

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    Mainsail wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    SNIP The officer admitted to you that he couldn’t articulate a law that you were breaking, thus his detaining you was illegal. You should write a short and strong letter to his supervisor pointing this out.
    SNIP Officer Egocould have had reasonable suspicion based on the 911 call.

    That suspicion, if any,may have evaporated mid-way through any detention. And Officer Ego may have continued the detention too long. But we just don't know what the dispatcher told him.
    SNIP I think you’re confusing ‘suspicion’ with the legal requirement of ‘reasonable articuable suspicion’.
    As far as the reasonable suspicion part goes, I think we're on the same page. We just don't know what the dispatcher told the officer, thus we don't know if the officer hadreasonable suspicion aka reasonable articulable suspicion to justify a non-consensual encounter at the outset.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
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    Citizen wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    SNIP The officer admitted to you that he couldn’t articulate a law that you were breaking, thus his detaining you was illegal. You should write a short and strong letter to his supervisor pointing this out.
    SNIP Officer Egocould have had reasonable suspicion based on the 911 call.

    That suspicion, if any,may have evaporated mid-way through any detention. And Officer Ego may have continued the detention too long. But we just don't know what the dispatcher told him.
    SNIP I think you’re confusing ‘suspicion’ with the legal requirement of ‘reasonable articuable suspicion’.
    As far as the reasonable suspicion part goes, I think we're on the same page. We just don't know what the dispatcher told the officer, thus we don't know if the officer hadreasonable suspicion aka reasonable articulable suspicion to justify a non-consensual encounter at the outset.
    ...but you said it without the verbosity.

    Yes, we don’t know what the officer was told when he responded, it may be something or it may be nothing. Asking those two questions helps to eliminate the ambiguity. If the officer is investigating an actual crime (say an armed robbery nearby) your cooperation will help put him back on the street looking for a dangerous criminal. If he is only fishing, then you know where you stand and can elect to say nothing. Either way, it’s always best to find out if you are seized (and why) or if you free to leave whenever you decide you’ve had enough of the encounter. The officer doesn’t care if he has your consent or not.

    Bear in mind that it took five police encounters and a lot of research before I worked up this process. I cut the TPD a lot of slack (I was handcuffed during #3) while they got their act together, so my advice is to be patient if open carry is not common where you live.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    SNIP The officer doesn’t care if he has your consent or not.


    If he doesn't have genuine reasonable suspicion, he'd better care whether he has my consent.

    That's the whole point of expressing the refused consent. From that instant forward, if he does not have reasonable suspicion and detains me further, his personnel file is in jeopardy. If he is working from some personal bias,is in error on his law,is making up the law as he goes along, is enforcing his personal opinion, it doesn't matter.

    Its really all aboutleveraging your negotiating position. Maximizing your defenses. Setting up the situation so you can push back that much harder once you areout of their hands.

    As long as I refuse consent to the encounter, I don't have to ask if I am free to go.I don't have to establish by further questions during the encounter whether he has reasonable suspicion.It ispre-arranged thatif he does not have reasonable suspicion and I refuse consent, I amautomatically free to go. Its his failure to do so that gets him in trouble. Also, if he doesn't let me go the instant I refuse, I can immediately assume that I am being detained without asking even one more question.No haggling later over whether my ID in his handsconstitutes a detention, no haggling later over whether he and hisbuddypositioned themselves to block my exit, no haggling over whether he phrased his inquiries as requests but used an authoritative tone ofvoice. Those pointsall become moot. Consent was expressly refused.

    Itthen becomes just a matter of finding outwhether reasonable suspicion exists(ed). Either during the detention or after the detention when I FOIA the 911 call and dispatcher traffic.


    None of this is to say that you can't ask whether you're being detained, what the reasonable suspicion is, whether you're free to go. I'm sayingfirst refuse consent to the encounter. Ask all the questions you can. But do it after refusing consent to theencounter. No matter what else happens after that during the encounter, if you refused consent, and it turns out he did not have reasonable suspicion to justify a detention, you're on solid ground with a complaint.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
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    I just got off the phone with the Wal-Mart manager of that store. I tried calling for the regional manager about the issue, but was told that issues regarding policies are left to the store, so I should speak with a manager there.

    When I spoke to the manager about the event, she sounded genuinely shocked to hear about the actions of the one who asked me to leave and threatened me with trespass, but the manager mentioned that they would appreciate it if the guns aren't seen, despite not having a policy against it. She said that surely I can understand with all of the robberies locally and shootings nationally, and I responded with a laugh and said 'precisely why I carry'. I told her I respected their concern, and that I'd be taking my business to a more welcoming Wal-Mart.

  23. #23
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    Venzor wrote:
    SNIP I just got off the phone with the Wal-Mart manager of that store.
    Sounds reasonable.

    I usually advocate a soft touch with stores and so forth.

    I wonder if it might work to give the manager a chance to look into the policy, acknowledgeher concern, gether understanding that you're a good guy, and then OC as always. It might be away to win another person to our side.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Venzor wrote:
    SNIP I just got off the phone with the Wal-Mart manager of that store.
    Sounds reasonable.

    I usually advocate a soft touch with stores and so forth.

    I wonder if it might work to give the manager a chance to look into the policy, acknowledgeher concern, gether understanding that you're a good guy, and then OC as always. It might be away to win another person to our side.
    Another tack may be to say that you have never seen a robber wear their gun on their hip in a holster for the world to right before they robbed a store/person.

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member
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    sccrref wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Venzor wrote:
    SNIP I just got off the phone with the Wal-Mart manager of that store.
    Sounds reasonable.

    I usually advocate a soft touch with stores and so forth.

    I wonder if it might work to give the manager a chance to look into the policy, acknowledgeher concern, gether understanding that you're a good guy, and then OC as always. It might be away to win another person to our side.
    Another tack may be to say that you have never seen a robber wear their gun on their hip in a holster for the world to right before they robbed a store/person.
    I have used thatwith moderate success.

    Good point. Thanks for bringing it up.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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