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Thread: OC discussion on Lightfighter

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    I don't know if there are any other LF'ers on here but there is quite a discussion going on lightfighter.net about Open Carry. Verry interesting and seeing some peoples opinions.

    http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a...473#2961023473

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    mmm requires registration... care to summarize?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Well kinda the usual OC is a tactical disadvantage crowd. I'll see if I can give the other side of the story there.

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    Hmm nice. I wonder how many people over there can draw from concealment as quickly as someone who is OCing... and how they're going to do that and not be charged with homocide.

    That's one of the issues I have with CCing, from a tactical standpoint. Except in very few instances, you'll need to get out of the "action" in order to draw, and then re-enter the "action" in your attempt to stop it, when you obviously had an opportunity to retreat when you were drawing. And if you can't get your gun out of concealment without getting noticed (and shot), congrats, your gun is doing you no good.

    Anyhow, I'd tend to think that the number of criminals scared off by a citizen OCing a gun is far higher than those who just don't care if their victim is armed.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Hmm nice. I wonder how many people over there can draw from concealment as quickly as someone who is OCing... and how they're going to do that and not be charged with homocide.

    That's one of the issues I have with CCing, from a tactical standpoint. Except in very few instances, you'll need to get out of the "action" in order to draw, and then re-enter the "action" in your attempt to stop it, when you obviously had an opportunity to retreat when you were drawing. And if you can't get your gun out of concealment without getting noticed (and shot), congrats, your gun is doing you no good.

    Anyhow, I'd tend to think that the number of criminals scared off by a citizen OCing a gun is far higher than those who just don't care if their victim is armed.
    :?

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Hmm nice. I wonder how many people over there can draw from concealment as quickly as someone who is OCing... and how they're going to do that and not be charged with homocide.

    That's one of the issues I have with CCing, from a tactical standpoint. Except in very few instances, you'll need to get out of the "action" in order to draw, and then re-enter the "action" in your attempt to stop it, when you obviously had an opportunity to retreat when you were drawing. And if you can't get your gun out of concealment without getting noticed (and shot), congrats, your gun is doing you no good.
    Respectfully imperial... it seems you're almost saying that CC is worthless? :shock:
    Unless you're carrying hard-core deep-cover CC, (like stuffed in your underpants) I suggest you simply need to practice your draw speed. Gabe Suarez's training comes to mind for close-contact stuff. And heck, most (not all, but most) of the time draw speed isn't a factor at all anyway... cause you see it coming.

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    IdahoCorsair wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Hmm nice. I wonder how many people over there can draw from concealment as quickly as someone who is OCing... and how they're going to do that and not be charged with homocide.

    That's one of the issues I have with CCing, from a tactical standpoint. Except in very few instances, you'll need to get out of the "action" in order to draw, and then re-enter the "action" in your attempt to stop it, when you obviously had an opportunity to retreat when you were drawing. And if you can't get your gun out of concealment without getting noticed (and shot), congrats, your gun is doing you no good.
    Respectfully imperial... it seems you're almost saying that CC is worthless? :shock:
    Unless you're carrying hard-core deep-cover CC, (like stuffed in your underpants) I suggest you simply need to practice your draw speed. Gabe Suarez's training comes to mind for close-contact stuff. And heck, most (not all, but most) of the time draw speed isn't a factor at all anyway... cause you see it coming.
    I am saying that it is worthless, except to get a gun into places where you'd be kicked out or arrested if OCing. A CCed gun is better than no gun at all. But anyhow, that's my personal opinion, and I see the benefits of either mode of carry even if I prefer one over the other. That's also why I will support the rights of someone to CC any day. The point I was trying to make originally is that CC doesn't have a monopoly on the "tactical" argument.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    IdahoCorsair wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Hmm nice. I wonder how many people over there can draw from concealment as quickly as someone who is OCing... and how they're going to do that and not be charged with homocide.

    That's one of the issues I have with CCing, from a tactical standpoint. Except in very few instances, you'll need to get out of the "action" in order to draw, and then re-enter the "action" in your attempt to stop it, when you obviously had an opportunity to retreat when you were drawing. And if you can't get your gun out of concealment without getting noticed (and shot), congrats, your gun is doing you no good.
    Respectfully imperial... it seems you're almost saying that CC is worthless? :shock:
    Unless you're carrying hard-core deep-cover CC, (like stuffed in your underpants) I suggest you simply need to practice your draw speed. Gabe Suarez's training comes to mind for close-contact stuff. And heck, most (not all, but most) of the time draw speed isn't a factor at all anyway... cause you see it coming.
    I am saying that it is worthless, except to get a gun into places where you'd be kicked out or arrested if OCing. A CCed gun is better than no gun at all. But anyhow, that's my personal opinion, and I see the benefits of either mode of carry even if I prefer one over the other. That's also why I will support the rights of someone to CC any day. The point I was trying to make originally is that CC doesn't have a monopoly on the "tactical" argument.
    but all of your points in your argument are negated if one has proper training, as IC referred to

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    It depends a lot on how one CC's as well. CC doesn't have to mean that it is shoved down the inside waistband of my pants with 1/2" of grip covered by my draped shirt, nor does it have to mean an IWB holster with a shirt fully tucked over it or any other method of "deep" concealment.

    I frequently CC the same way I OC but with the addition of a sports coat or light jacket. When doing so, I keep my keys in my coat pocket. It takes very little extra motion to swing the sports coat/jacket back with my strong side hand as I reach my pistol. In the summer I often wear golf shirts or printed t-shirts. Most are long enough that I can wear a cheapy nylon holster IWB and "fold" the shirt over it, barely tucking the fold into the waistband. The quickest draws from that position do require 2 hands. My weak side hand just grabs the front of the shirt at about the appendix and pulls as my strong hand grabs the pistol. All it takes is a little tug to fully expose the grip. In a confrontation both would be quick because I would be in the "interview position".

    The downside to both of those CC methods is that body movement and natural daily life movement can expose the pistol briefly. The upside is that I can draw nearly as quickly from them as I can from OC. What's the adage? A quick draw is a smooth draw or something like that?

    I don't think there are any universal truths here or absolutes.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    IdahoCorsair wrote:
    Unless you're carrying hard-core deep-cover CC, (like stuffed in your underpants) I suggest you simply need to practice your draw speed.
    With practice and a waistband that isn't too tight, even SmartCarry draw can be very fast; very nearly as fast as OC draw, as long as your weak hand is available to pull the waistband out and clear access.

    My problem is that my waistbands are all too tight. I could fix that by buying bigger pants, but I refuse to do that -- again. I'm going to fix that problem the right way, even if it is harder. I prefer to OC anyway, but sometimes CC is necessary, and when it's necessary deep concealment is almost always necessary as well.

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    Some people here really have me ROTFLMAO with how little they actually know and insert foot into mouth every time they post :P:P:P

    Talk crap about what ya want, but realize the vast majority of posters at lightfighter have done and are doing what guys here can only dream of.

    It's not like your dreams.

    I can only hope people don't take some of the ubber garbage here as fact based data and ends up dead or worse due to some internet commando.

    We now return you to your bitch fest :celebrate:celebrate

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    longwatch wrote:
    Well kinda the usual OC is a tactical disadvantage crowd. I'll see if I can give the other side of the story there.
    You came across very well, good on ya

    PS.....even better ya followed the rules and that's bonus points :celebrate:celebrate:P

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    Oh and as some know here I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut.

    Whoever Kiriyak is here, he got powned in the biggest way by Pat Rogers among others.

    Please guys use longwatch as an example, he came in and stated his POV in a very good manner and refused to get drawn into a ******* match like Kiriyak did.

    I needed a good old belly laugh and dang Kiriyak, ya sure gave me one

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Ive come to the conclusion that cross forum flamewars are pointless. Sure we should make our case politely but its not useful to take an 'OC is best, and CCW sucks' stance.
    1. Its not true, both have advantages and disadvantages.
    2. Tends to turn people off.

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    Mjolnir wrote:
    Some people here really have me ROTFLMAO with how little they actually know and insert foot into mouth every time they post :P:P:P

    Talk crap about what ya want, but realize the vast majority of posters at lightfighter have done and are doing what guys here can only dream of.

    It's not like your dreams.

    I can only hope people don't take some of the ubber garbage here as fact based data and ends up dead or worse due to some internet commando.

    We now return you to your bitch fest :celebrate:celebrate
    Would you please tell us what parts are "ubber garbage". I don't mean that as a challenge as I am well aware that I have a lot to learn about firearms and combat and I am asking because I do not know what I am missing. There are certainly things I disagree with here but to my mind they do not rise to the level of garbage for teh most part but rather one person's opinion but then I do not necessarily know better to have a more knowledgable opinion on the matter myself.

    If you do not want to post on the open forum to avoid any flame war, would you please PM me with the information. I will keep it confidential if that is what you wish. I am here to exchange ideas and to learn. I do not have enough knowledge to dismiss or accept your comments, however, your comments do not give enough information for me to even try to do either. As you can see from my posts, I have a pretty moderate opinion on the matter and see pros and cons to both methods of carry, engage in both methods of carry and for the most part, my type of carry depends more on environmental and legal factors rather than on tactical factors or opinions, which I only mention to bolster my assertion that I only ask for educational purposes.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    Would you please tell us what parts are "ubber garbage".
    Hmm nice. I wonder how many people over there can draw from concealment as quickly as someone who is OCing... and how they're going to do that and not be charged with homocide.

    That's one of the issues I have with CCing, from a tactical standpoint. Except in very few instances, you'll need to get out of the "action" in order to draw, and then re-enter the "action" in your attempt to stop it, when you obviously had an opportunity to retreat when you were drawing. And if you can't get your gun out of concealment without getting noticed (and shot), congrats, your gun is doing you no good.

    Anyhow, I'd tend to think that the number of criminals scared off by a citizen OCing a gun is far higher than those who just don't care if their victim is armed.


    I am saying that it is worthless, (concealed carry) except to get a gun into places where you'd be kicked out or arrested if OCing. A CCed gun is better than no gun at all.


    How is the above for a start???

    Go over to the thread listed, register and then lurk and read the thread several times & then expand on the learning by reading more and more at LF.

    Google Search "Pat Rogers"

    LF is a trove of knowledge by guys with the T shirts if you are mature, willing and openminded enough to learn.

    Then check out the 10-8 Forum.

    I'm not saying OC is bad and/or it does not have a place, but ya sure as hell are at a major disavantage the majority of time & ya don't scare anybody except the sheep. Any hardened crinimal who is hell bent on mayham will target a OC 1st as a threat and a possible means for more weapons/ammo.

    Oh and some people have personality disorders and feel the need to OC so they feel important/powerfull.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    LF seems to be a great forum if you are an operator, LEO, military, or contractor. But what they offer is a whole different perspective than what an OCer or even CCWer needs IMHO.

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    longwatch wrote:
    Ive come to the conclusion that cross forum flamewars are pointless. Sure we should make our case politely but its not useful to take an 'OC is best, and CCW sucks' stance.
    1. Its not true, both have advantages and disadvantages.
    2. Tends to turn people off.
    This is very true.
    Peace through superior firepower

    Luke 11:21
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.

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    There is huge predjuidice on LF against anyone who does not have substantial LE or military experience. Regardless of statistics, logical thought or simple differance in beliefs, most of the members on LF will jump down the throat of anyone who disagrees with their ideas on things.

    It is sad to see a forum which has an incredible wealth of knowledge and potential like LF be so unconcerned as to their impact on members. Glad to be a part of OCDO where the people are interested in helping and informing instead of flaming.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Hmm nice. I wonder how many people over there can draw from concealment as quickly as someone who is OCing... and how they're going to do that and not be charged with homocide.

    That's one of the issues I have with CCing, from a tactical standpoint. Except in very few instances, you'll need to get out of the "action" in order to draw, and then re-enter the "action" in your attempt to stop it, when you obviously had an opportunity to retreat when you were drawing. And if you can't get your gun out of concealment without getting noticed (and shot), congrats, your gun is doing you no good.

    Anyhow, I'd tend to think that the number of criminals scared off by a citizen OCing a gun is far higher than those who just don't care if their victim is armed.
    It depends on how deeply you conceal. An IWB holster under an untucked collared shirt is only slightly slower than your average 3:00 OC holster. With a jacket on, I would argue across-draw from a concealed shoulder holster is faster than a hip draw OWB (no waistband or tails to contend with).

    With a tucked shirt and no jacket (my standard work attire), the options for a fast draw of a large gun get more costly. You can carry IWB with an internal gun belt at 1:00, 4:00 or 11:00. At 1:00, you have to untuck to draw, plain and simple. You can modify the side seam of a shirt with some velcro to provide fast access to 4:00 carry, or set up a false button in your shirt front to draw from 11:00. In any case, that's why subcompacts were designed; a G26 or S&W Airweight snubby in your front right pocket requires little more than a pocket holster to ensure it stays put.

    And yes, a BUG or other subcompact deeply concealed in an ankle holster is going to take time to get to. That's why it's a BUG. You draw, point and pull, then take a quick visual sweep for cover and get behind it. That holds whether your main gun's first shot put the BG on the ground and you'repulling out your cell phone,or itblew up in your hand and you're goingfor your backup.

    Bottom line is, if you are drawn on, you better be a CFDA champion if you hope to beat it, OC or otherwise. If you have the time to draw, and have practiced drawing quickly from your chosen location,whether you are drawing from an open holster or concealmentdoesn't make as much difference as you think. CC affects your choice of wardrobe and weapon more than OC, I grant you, but as long as the right choices are made a CC draw's speed is nothing to sneeze at.


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    Saint wrote:
    There is huge predjuidice on LF against anyone who does not have substantial LE or military experience. Regardless of statistics, logical thought or simple differance in beliefs, most of the members on LF will jump down the throat of anyone who disagrees with their ideas on things.

    It is sad to see a forum which has an incredible wealth of knowledge and potential like LF be so unconcerned as to their impact on members. Glad to be a part of OCDO where the people are interested in helping and informing instead of flaming.
    Now that is flat out wrong and ya know it.

    They have rules there and everybody is expected to follow those rules, no exceptions.

    So you goout busted not following the rules & then coped a tude and argued with senior members and staff. That's not a good idea on any forum till you are established & even then on other forums it's an automatic ban.

    Lots of members ther are not mil/leo anf get along great, bt they do follow the rules and don't step out of line. I've seen some great guys step out of line and get smacked back in line, it's the way things work over there.

    It's also how they operate in real life, why put up with ******** who talk **** when you have seen and done it and know it works or does not work.

    Some say it's ego, others say it's seeing the elephant and other say it's knowledge and skills while some otehrs say it's a combo of the things mentioned.

    All I know is that if the **** hits the fan those are the guys ya can count on, not some armchair commando who has never pissed himself in fear while still managing to accomplish the mission.

    What they offer is like the difference between a sheep and a sheep dog, it's a mindset and way of life anybody can acheve if they so desire.

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    Oh no! I've been ubber criticized! How will I ever deal with the appeals to authority? :what:


    I'm not LE. I'm not a defense contractor. I've never shot a person. Nonetheless, I know how I handle my gun, and I know what makes sense for me. As I've said, CC has benefits... but there are scarce few cases where it's going to present an advantage over OC, given the same mindset. Most of the scenarios laid out where the "element of surprise" is so vital are either: 1) wishful thinking; 2) exclusive to LE, etc; or 3) a result of being in condition white.

    The most powerful self-defense weapon is the brain. A gun is a tool to help it. It doesn't matter how many rounds you can put through the same hole at 75 yards, or 50 yards, or 25 yards, or even 10 yards. What matters is that first shot at a target a few feet away, and who you have an advantage over not because of how you carry your gun, but because your observational skills and intuition have given you the ability to properly engage that threat.

    So unless that's a real advanced CC holster that aids your brain in processing situations, it seems to make more sense to me to remove one more possible complication from addressing a threat. Sure, in good circumstances, a CCer may be able to draw as fast as an OCer. But how about bad circumstances? It seems to me to be like carrying with an empty chamber. Yes, it might prevent a freak AD, and it might scare off a BG when you rack the slide, and if you practice long enough you can probably chamber a round while drawing as quickly as someone who just needs to draw... but it adds an unnecessary complication that could be solved by... thinking. No?



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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Oh no! I've been ubber criticized! How will I ever deal with the appeals to authority? :what:
    Beer???

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    I'm not LE. I'm not a defense contractor. I've never shot a person. Nonetheless, I know how I handle my gun, and I know what makes sense for me. As I've said, CC has benefits... but there are scarce few cases where it's going to present an advantage over OC, given the same mindset. Most of the scenarios laid out where the "element of surprise" is so vital are either: 1) wishful thinking; 2) exclusive to LE, etc; or 3) a result of being in condition white.
    How little you understand, yet continue to speak of what ya have no knowledge & refuse to learn from those who have gone before you.



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    Well if I went by the majority opinion of LF, I would never OC again.
    There is undoubtedly good knowledge to be gleaned from LF but they seem to have a different set of operating parameters than I do.

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