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Thread: Things that make you go HUH

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    Regular Member mmdkyoung123's Avatar
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    Little background info first. I run several stores for a company that markets urban apparel in VERY urban neighborhoods. I carry for the safety of myself, my employees, and then my customers.

    On Satruday, I called the police to the store on troost ave in Kansas city. My employee's ex had called the store several times, threatening to kill him. ( I could here her over the phone, she was that loud) She then showed up at the store, and parked across the street. She called the store, told my employee to look outside, and then held up a knife. (looked like a butcher knife). So I called 911, nd the police responded, talked to her, searched her, found the knife, and arrested her. All good right? Nope. now comes the fun stuff.

    The three police officers come over to the store to talk to us, and let us know it is resolved. Police officer number one, see's my gun, and asks if I have a permit for that. (I am almost positive he was foreign as he had a HEAVY accent. I believe Russian) I replied that I do not, but I am carrying it openly in accordance with the law, and further more, I am in my "fixed place of business" and my carrying a gun is not an issue. He tells me that without a permit I am carrying illegally, that I need to put my hands on the counter, so he can disarm me and handcuff me. I asked him to call a supervisor. He then pulls his taser, and tells me the same again. I comply (I have been tased before during training. didn't feel great, and I figured this wouldn't feel any better) So now, I am sitting in my OWN store, handcuffed, waiting on a supervisor. Finally 15 mins later he arrives. He talks with the other officers, appears to tell officer one that he is an idiot, and walks back over. He takes off the hadcuffs and apologizes. I just looked at him.

    He now proceeds to tell me that the foreign guy is new, and just trying to do his job to the best of his ability, and they would instruct him further as to carry laws. HE THEN proceeds to tell me that while I am legal to carry in my home, vehicle, and business, that if I step onto the sidewalk with out a permit, even carrying openly I am in a GREY area and could be arrested. . I explained to this officer, that there was no grey area. I tried my best to NOT talk to him like I would my five year old. I pulled out the paper that I keep in my wallet with the ordinances for KC, Independence, and Raytown, (those are the areas I am in most often.) and showed them to him. He reads them, tells me that is not what they mean. I said I am sorry, I thought that as English is MY first language I read them quite clearly. Please, do tell me what they say then. He "informs" me that if I carry openly, that I am posing a threat to the public, and any officers that arrive on scene, and I will be arrested. (He didn't like it when I laughed) At this point, I should have been home 30 minutes ago, and just want to leave. I tell the officer that I don't have time to "discuss" this with him any further. I ask him if I can have my gun back and if I am free to go. He gives me my gun, and I lock up. I Unload my gun, and take it out to the car and then take out the ammo separate as this guy seems just dumb enough to actually arrest me. So should I file a complaint, or just write a letter saying that they may need to brush up on their English and the law??

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    • File a freedom of information act request asking for policy on openly armed individuals, any reports that were filed about the incidents, any radio calls, text messages, phone calls, internal e-mails, or memos about the incident
    • wait for a response
    • Once you get a reply, file a formal complaint. Your complaint should at least cover the fact that you were falsely arrested due to the ignorance of the police officers and that caused you emotional distress and undue embarrasment. Complain about the ignorance of the supervisor regarding open carry as well. Also complain about the rudeness of the first officer and anything else you think is necessary.Also, ask what actions have been taken to remedy the ignorance of both officers and what disciplinary action has been taken against the officer who falsely imprisoned you.Demand a response in writing
    • If you haven't heard back, follow up on the complaint in 2 weeks and find out who is responsible for handling your complaint and talk to that officer
    • if you haven't gotten a call back, call back and follow up.
    • DO NOT let them "resolve this over the phone." Stick to getting a written response
    • When you get a written response, if you don't think it adequately answered your complaint, follow up with another letter demanding another written response

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    File a complaint after confirming the legality (which is not really necessary in this case) with an attorney specializing in firearms issues (I know a good one in the Gladstone area) and consider getting a recording device for the next encounter. Maybe even consider making an appointment with the attorney and the appropriate LEO positions all in the same room.

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    captainamerica wrote:
    File a complaint after confirming the legality (which is not really necessary in this case) with an attorney specializing in firearms issues (I know a good one in the Gladstone area) and consider getting a recording device for the next encounter. Maybe even consider making an appointment with the attorney and the appropriate LEO positions all in the same room.
    Definitely get an olympus pocket recorder and take that with you (only after making sure that recording police officers is legal). You can get an attorney if you think you need it, but filing a freedom of information act request and filing a complaint can both be done easily on your own. The attorney can come in useful if you want monetary compensation for your wrongful arrest and public embarrasment.

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    Regular Member mmdkyoung123's Avatar
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    I don't want money. I wasn't physically hurt and can still work etc. I just want them "edjumacated" as my dad would say, so this doesn't happen again to me or someone else.

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    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    Sometimes the only way to really edumicate them is to hit them where it hurts. If the PD gets enough complaints and or lawsuites, then the officer might not be working there much more.

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    sccrref wrote:
    Sometimes the only way to really edumicate them is to hit them where it hurts. If the PD gets enough complaints and or lawsuites, then the officer might not be working there much more.



    But at this point, we don't know if the PD wants to do the right thing. So at this point, I don't think a lawyer is needed. If they prove their inability to learn without more consequences, then the great thing about making a paper trail is it can be used as evidence in court.

    So again, you need to file a Freedom of Information Act Request (if your state has such a law). This will document the incident and make sure that the police can't lie about their intentions. Then, file a formal complaint and ride that bull as long as you can.

    This websiteis an awesome example of a Virginia OCer who took care of an incident and posted about it on the Virginia forums.


    --EDIT--

    Oh, somehting I noticed that he included in his FOIA was a copy of the policies of the PD when dealing with openly armed citizens. IIRC, when he got the policies back, he was able to mention in his complaint that the officers had clearly violated department policy by detaining him. That added alot to the effectiveness of his complaint, so be sure to request a copy of department policies. If they don't have them, they may create them after your complaint, which would be a very positive development.

    I like the way he worded his request. It's very broad and hard to weasel out of.

    I am requesting any and all documents relating to all aspects of the incident including a recording and/or transcript of the original 911 call and dispatch which the Arlington police officers contact with me, any video or audio recordings of my conversations and contact with the Arlington police officers, incident reports, internal notes, internal e-mails, transcripts and records of phone calls relating to the incident and any other pertinent information regarding my detainment that evening. I further request copies pertaining to the procedures of Arlington Police when dealing with lawfully armed citizens, if any exist.


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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    mmdkyoung123 it is hard to give you advice because so much of what happened is impossible to convey on a forum. One officer threatened to tase you, disarmed you and placed you in handcuffs. He appologized after being told that he was mistaken by the supervising officer. This seemed like an honest mistake by a rookie. When the supervising officer then told you that you would be arrested for open carrying, you showed him thelaw in writing and hestill advocated arrest for open carryyou have a huge problem. The attitde is anti firearms and anti liberty. Take action, and if the police are not reasonable in their response, take more significant action.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Ok, one more thing

    I found a website that has a pre-written Freedom of Information Request form for Missouri residentsthat you can just fill in and drop off. You'll have to call the PD and find out where you can submit the request. I recommend you request all the same things that the FOIA example I posted in the post above.

    Here's the linkfor the sample FOIA request that you can file under Missouri law... it's a bit different than the Virginia one.

    Here's a general page about Missouri's "Sunshine Law."


    I think you've got everything you need

  10. #10
    Regular Member mmdkyoung123's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the help guys. especially ama-gi for finding all the paperwork for me and making it very easy. I will get everything together tonight and file it tomorrow morning hopefully. I guess that is the only way to "guarantee" that they will adress it in some form, whether I think it is correct or not. Will let you know how it goes. Thanks again.

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    mmdk,

    I gave you a contact for an attorney in KC...please call this guy and at least let him know what happened. Can't stand stories like that.

  12. #12
    Regular Member mmdkyoung123's Avatar
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    Roger that Shawn. Will do and at least see what he says.

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    ama-gi wrote:
    • File a freedom of information act request asking for policy on openly armed individuals, any reports that were filed about the incidents, any radio calls, text messages, phone calls, internal e-mails, or memos about the incident
    I was about to ask how to file an FOIA request, but I decided to ask Google first, and found a great web site. http://wikifoia.pbwiki.com/ has state-by-state information about the relevant laws and provides a link to an on-line FOIA request letter generator that automatically specifies relevant state statutes and the statutory penalties that apply for violation of the state law.

    Very useful. Here's an example letter it generated for me:
    April 17, 2008

    Joe Smith
    Department of Redundancy Department
    423 East South Temple
    Salt Lake City, Utah 84111

    Dear Mr. Smith,

    Pursuant to the state open records law, Utah Code Ann. secs. 63-2-101 to 63-2-1001, I write to request access to and a copy of Everything I can get.. If your agency does not maintain these public records, please let me know who does and include the proper custodian’s name and address.

    I agree to pay any reasonable copying and postage fees of not more than $20. If the cost would be greater than this amount, please notify me. Please provide a receipt indicating the charges for each document.

    As provided by the open records law, I would request your expedited response within five (5) business days. I am seeking the information for publication or broadcast to the general public.

    If you choose to deny this request, please provide a written explanation for the denial including a reference to the specific statutory exemption(s) upon which you rely. Also, please provide all segregable portions of otherwise exempt material.

    Please be advised that I am prepared to pursue whatever legal remedy necessary to obtain access to the requested records. I would note that violation of the open records law can result in a fine of up to $1,000 and the award of litigation costs and reasonable attorney fees.

    Thank you for your assistance.

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    Keep us informed of how this goes. Don't like to hear of this kind of behavior around here. I wondered about how the KCPD viewedOC. I don'tOC in town at all. Not do to harassment by KCPD but harassment from the WIFE. She doesn' t like it. CC is fine with her andoften asks me ifI have it when things look a bit strange or we if we are going for a walk with our son in the evening.

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    Being a "new" driver doesn't exempt you from a speeding ticket and if they were truly worried about educating you, there would be no fine, merely some form of community service. Drive even faster, the fine is greater.

    Accordinglybeing a "new" officer shouldn't exempt him either and he should he held to a higher standard if he has authority to arrest people affecting their lives and livelihoods. Anyone in public service must be accountable and held to higher standards.

    Believe me, education is great, but for many it goes in one ear and out the other. As I've said for years: "You can lead a man to knowledge, but you cannot make him think."

    When the supervisor's boss gets on his ass and again at review time because of the monetary damages awarded, you can bet he'll start thinking then.



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