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Thread: Students advocate for concealed guns at UW-Madison

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    I just do not understand the paranoia cops have for law abiding people carrying guns. Every year 45,000 to 50,000 people are killed in automabile crashes. In over 50% alcohol is a contributing factor. Yet many times the cops will pull a drunk driver over, give the driver a sobriety field test, perhaps issue a citation, find the driver an alternate way home and then be on their way. A drunk driver behind the wheel of a 3000 pound car going down the freeway at 65 miles per hour is without question going armed with a dangerous weapon. To make matters worse he\she doesn't even know who his victims may be. That scenario plays out every day somewhere in the country. And yet for all practical purposes society and the legal community turn their heads to the fact. All because consumption of alcohol is socially acceptable.

    The courts contribute considerably to the problem. Even though a drunk driver is a dangerous threat to innocent people the courts too often slap them on the wrist and turn them loose to repeat the offense. How many times have you read about someone being arrested for their 5th or 6th or 7th DWI? I know about this from personal experience. I am ashamed to admit that I have a grandson that has been charged with DWI four times. If it was within my power I would shred his drivers licsnse. Charge him with reckless endangerment and on second offense take away his driving privleges for life. Of course those types of pinishment will never happen. As I said consumption of alcohol is socially acceptable. Even our ex attorney general, the highest ranking law enforcement officer in the state was arrested for drunk driving. Drunk driving in a state vehicle for that matter. Think what would happen if the courts turned a person loose on the public after that person had commited a 7th offense for threatening someone with a firearm. A public shout of disapproval would be thunderous. It doesn't matter if a person's life is threatened with an automobile or a firearm. Dead is dead.

    What does this have to do with guns? I used it to illustrate that the perceived seriousness of an act, and the paranoia surrounding it, is dependant on the social acceptability. Today's society, and especially the cops, have a growing paranoia about firearms. There is an automatic presumption that a person with a gun is without question a threat to public safety and well being. Instantly panic sets in and the cops respond as a "blue line" of paranoia.

    Why do the cops have this paranoia and therefore reject the notion that anybody but they should be able to carry firearms. My opinion is that they can only perceive a firearm as an instument of death. They feel that their life is threatened by anyone carrying a firearm. It doesn't matter if that person is law-abiding or has criminal intent. It is only that "oh my god, that person has a gun".

    Why does that happen? Only a psychologist can answer that question. The reality is that cops killed in the line of duty by automobiles and drunk drivers out number those killed by firearms 100 to 1. So why the cop paranoia about firearms and not over drunk driving? Social acceptability.

    That paranoia and social acceptability is what makes it so hard for us to get society and the cops to understand our side of the story. Out of fear and the perceived risk of bodily harm their minds get closed to firearm issues and prevents any rational discussion on the subject.


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    Lt. Holen's comments are, well, idiotic.

    Brigdh, how many people attended that meeting?
    A. Gold

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    IIRC from elsewhere on this sub-forum, there has been a challenge to produce 'anyone' that has been successfully prosecuted for DC after being harassed for OCing.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...159727#p159727

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    I would be very interested in this information. I would thinksuch a letterwould be either from the city attorney or county district attorney. I would love to obtain a copy of any such letter. Maybe time for an open records request, eh? I suppose if the city attorney sent such a letter to the Madison PD they might not release the letter due to "attorney/client confidentiality" but if it was from the District Attorney, then it should be an open record. The city attorney is well-aware of my feelings on OC since I've contacted the PD regarding the topic on more than one occasion. Also, I might add the city attorney NEVER responded to my correspondence to the city asking for justification for their "no firearms allowed in 'conservaton parks' policy. I assume he hasn't responded because they're unable to justify the policy legally.

    As for my experience OCing in Madison, in the downtown area it was fairly brief, and nobody seemed to notice. Maybe nobody did notice! -- don't know. On my residential street nobody seems to have cared, so far.

    Interestingly I was wearing an empty holster (andwithtwo magazines in a mag holder) last night during a brief gas station stop on the way to my shooting league and thought I detected a couple of funny glances from customers.
    A. Gold

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    IIRC from elsewhere on this sub-forum, there has been a challenge to produce 'anyone' that has been successfully prosecuted for DC after being harassed for OCing.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...159727#p159727
    Now that you mention it, didn't Mike put out a similar challenge?

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    Shotgun wrote:
    Interestingly I was wearing an empty holster (andwithtwo magazines in a mag holder) last night during a brief gas station stop on the way to my shooting league and thought I detected a couple of funny glances from customers.
    Not to hijack the thread here, but I have been carrying my empty holster around Waukesha on probably half my errands. I have been practicing all the OC moves that are necessary, positioning my body to block access to my right side where possible, bending at the knees instead of the waist, basic situational awareness of peoples location around me and where they are looking/moving to.

    It is amazing how few people actually notice even at close quarters at the grocery store! Granted my fleece has helped to block most views of the holster (though I tuck the fleece side into my holster), but even when wearing a white shirt and nice jeans still only a few people have noticed my dark grey OWB holster. As part of situational awareness I am aware of who is noticing my holster. I often tell my wife afterward how many people noticed my holster...never had more than 8 looks on a 45 minute grocery store trip...seriously. Other people are just so absorbed in what they are doing they don't generally notice.

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    Searched for 3 hours. Only thing I managed to find was a list of charges for a court case in Fond du Lac County, and a post on THR as to what happened.

    Case details I could find

    Post #22



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    That would be another David R Olofson case.

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    Ok, I'd settle for just knowing the author of said letter. Next step would be an open records request.
    A. Gold

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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    WTMJ-4 had a quick story on Campus Carry at "The University of Wisconsin" last night. Since we have several colleges in the UW system, that's not overly-descriptive. The publicity seemed positive to me, because there was only brief anti-gun sentiment, which is much less than normal.



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    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352006,00.html
    Americans' fears over the safety of schools continues.

    Last Monday, three colleges and four K-to-12 schools were shut down by threats of violence.

    This week over 25,000 college students at 300 chapters in 44 states belong to a group, Students for Concealed Carry on College Campuses, that will carry empty handgun holsters to protest their concerns about not being able to defend themselves.

    With the first anniversary of the Virginia Tech attack last week and the discussions that it created, we clearly have not been able to put that and other attacks behind us. There are good reasons why the safety measures adopted over the last year to speed up response times or hiring more police haven't eliminated the fear people feel.

    The Thursday before the NIU murders five people were killed in a city council chambers in Kirkwood, Mo. There was even a police officer already there when the attack occurred. But as happens time after time in these attacks, when uniformed police are there, the killers either wait for the police to leave the area or they are the first people killed. In Kirkwood, the police officer was killed immediately when the attack started. People cowered or were reduced to futilely throwing chairs at the killer.

    There is a problem that people just are unwilling to recognize.

    Just like attacks last year at the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Neb., or Trolley Square Mall in Salt Lake City or the recent attack at the Tinley Park Mall in Illinois or all the public schools attacks, all these cases had one thing in common: They took place in “gun free zones,” where private citizens were not allowed to carry their guns with them.

    The malls in Omaha and Salt Lake City were in states that let people carry concealed handguns, but private property owners are allowed to post signs banning guns and those malls were among the few places in their states that chose to post such signs. In the Trolley Square attack an off-duty police officer fortunately violated the ban and stopped the attack. The attacks at Virginia Tech or the other public schools occured in some of the few areas within their states that people are not allowed to carry concealed handguns.

    It is not just recent killings that are occurring in these gun-free zones. Multiple-victim public shootings keep on occurring in places where guns are banned. Nor are these horrible incidents limited to just gun-free zones in the US.

    In 1996 Martin Bryant killed 35 people at Port Arthur in Tasmania, Australia. In the last half-dozen years, European countries including France, Germany and Switzerland have experienced multiple-victim shootings. The worst school attack in Germany claimed 17 deaths, another 14 deaths; one attack in Switzerland claimed the lives of 14 regional legislators.

    At some point you would think that something is going on here, that these murderers aren’t just picking their targets at random. Yet, when one thinks about it, this pattern isn’t really too surprising.

    Most people understand that guns deter criminals. The problem is that instead of gun-free zones making it safe for potential victims, they make it safe for criminals.

    Criminals are less likely to run into those who might be able to stop them. Everyone wants to keep guns away from criminals, but the problem is who is more likely to obey the law.

    A student expelled for violating a gun-free zone at a college is extremely unlikely ever to get into another college. A faculty member fired for a firearms violation will find it virtually impossible to get another academic position. But even if the killer at Virginia Tech had lived, the notion that the threat of expulsion would have deterred the attacker when he would have already faced 32 death penalties or at least 32 life sentences seems silly.

    Letting civilians have permitted concealed handguns limits the damage from attacks. A major factor in determining how many people are harmed by these killers is the amount of time that elapses between when the attack starts and when someone with a gun is able to arrive on the scene.

    In cases from the church shooting in Colorado Springs, Colo., last December, where a parishioner who was given permission by the minister to carry her concealed gun into the church quickly stopped the murderer, to an attack last year in downtown Memphis, to the Appalachian Law School, to high schools in such places as Pearl, Miss., concealed handgun permit holders have stopped attacks well before uniformed police could possibly have arrived.

    Twice this year armed Israeli citizens have stopped terrorist attacks at schools (once by an armed teacher and another by an armed student). Indeed, despite the fears being discussed about the risks of concealed handgun permit holders, I haven’t found one multiple-victim public shooting where a permit holder has accidentally shot a bystander.

    With about 5 million Americans currently with concealed handgun permits in the U.S. and states starting having right-to-carry laws for as long as 80 years, we have a lot of experience with these laws, and one thing is very clear: Concealed handgun permit holders are extremely law-abiding and lose their permits for any gun-related violation at hundredths or thousandths of one percentage point. We also have a lot of experience with permitted concealed handguns in schools.

    Prior to the 1995 Safe School Zone Act, states with right-to-carry laws let teachers or others carry concealed handguns at school, and several states still allow this today. And there is not a single instance that I or others have found where this produced a single problem. There are today even some universities, including large public universities such as Colorado State University and the University of Utah, that let students carry concealed handguns on school property.

    With all the news media coverage of the types of guns used and how the criminal obtained the gun, at some point the news media might begin to mention the one common feature of these attacks: they keep occurring in gun-free zones.

    Gun-free zones are a magnet for these attacks. But, even without the media, considering that 15 more states this year debated legislation to let concealed handguns on school campuses, possibly the issue is becoming clear anyway.

    John Lott is the author of Freedomnomics and a senior research scientist at the University of Maryland.


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    Students should be allowed guns at UW-Whitewater
    Joe Luther 5/7/2008 http://media.http://www.royalpurplen...-3365729.shtml

    The recent school shootings across the country have brought about many questions about school security. If the students cannot be protected by the university, do they have the right to protect themselves?

    This is where the issue of concealed/carry comes into play. A concealed/carry law would allow any Wisconsin resident to carry a concealed firearm with a permit. Currently there is no state law allowing the carrying of concealed weapons.

    UW-Whitewater students should not be left to fear for their safety when 48 states allow concealed weapons, and many universities are beginning to allow weapons on campus as well. Students in Wisconsin and at UW-Whitewater should be allowed the right to carry a concealed weapon.

    Any proposed conceal and carry law would need to have strict background checks for anyone wishing to apply for a permit. Coupled with a strict training course in the use of firearms, concealed weapons are hardly a problem. Any law-abiding student that wishes to protect themselves would be able to under a concealed/carry law.

    One of the most-used arguments of anti-concealed/carry groups are that violence would increase if concealed/carry was passed on campuses. In fact, according to a recent study by the Wisconsin Policy Research Institute, many states that have passed concealed/carry legislation have actually seen gun violence decrease.

    The decrease is gun violence doesn't necessarily mean that people are even firing a shot. Just the suspected presence of someone with a concealed weapon is often enough to deter crime.

    Students or anyone else that would wish to use firearms on campus in a criminal manner is going to find a way to get a firearm whether concealed/carry is allowed or not. With a conceal/carry law in place students will be allowed to protect themselves. The campus police cannot protect every student at all times and students should have the right to protect themselves with concealed firearms.

    Gun control laws simply don't work. Northern Illinois University, which saw the most recent shooting ending in six deaths, is a gun-free zone. There is simply no way to enforce these laws, and full gun control is impossible. Allowing students to carry a weapon would decrease the likelihood of a crime, and stop the escalation of an incident like the one at Northern Illinois University.

    Student groups like the Students for Concealed Carry on Campus are popping up all across the country and are growing in number. Students across the country are seeking a way to protect themselves on campus, and are finding it in student groups like the SCCC. They believe that gun-free zones "serve to disarm only those law-abiding citizens" and are a detriment to student safety.

    I'll be the first to admit that I would not carry a weapon if a concealed/carry law is passed in Wisconsin, but I believe in the right to carry one. Students should have the right to protect themselves on campus.

    Wisconsin is one of only two states that do not allow any form of concealed/carry, and we probably won't see that law change any time soon. After recent school shootings the state and its citizens should seriously reconsider the ban on concealed weapons.

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    Citizens of Madison have no need for self-defense, and no reason to fear being shot. Really.
    http://www.cityofmadison.com/incidentReports/incidentDetail.cfm?id=9119

    Incident report for Case#208-120278
    05/05/2008 - 10:07 PM
    On 5/5/08 at approximately 10:07 p.m. Madison Police responded to a report of several shots being fired in the Darbo/Worthington area. Officers learned that a large group of teenagers were fighting and causing a disturbance, prior to shots being fired. Shell casings were recovered by officers at the scene and were processed as evidence. At this point, no one has come forward as to being injured as a result of this shooting. This case remains under investigation.

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