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Thread: Severe DISLIKE for Norfolk Police now.

  1. #1
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    Background:

    We went out to the bar last night. Had a great time before my roommate and great friend goes into surgery on Thursday. He became quite belligerent as everything came out. His yelling was heard by a neighbor who called the police reporting domestic dispute.

    4 squad cars show up to speak with us. A female officer then tried to walk into our house without being invited. My second roommate quickly blocked the door and said without a warrant your not coming in. :P She demanded he move or he will be arrested for obstruction of justice. (At this point everyone in the house, well all 5 of us are standing in our doorway/hallway.) She then grabbed my roommate by the arm, pulled him outside into the yard and cuffed him. He was then put in the squad car and we were told he would be released. The female officer then drove away as apparently my roommate was mouthing off to her in the car. (Yes, that sealed the deal)

    In the mean time, the LT asked me if he could come in side. Very politely I might add. I asked what the grounds were and was told he wanted to make sure nobody was injured. I allowed his entry to look at the remaining 4 people. He checked us out and walked back outside. They then left after squaring away that it was just two brothers arguing and to keep the noise down.

    Now, before you complete your thought that we were all plastered, you can squash it. I had 2 beers in me, my roommate who was arrested had a buzz, the other roommate was the drunk one, hence why he was being so loud. The other 2 were also not drunk.

    At this point I am still fuming. My buddy has a $1,500 bail which none of us can front even with everyone being 22yrs old to 28yrs. I want to file a complaint about this officer however the fact that my roommate mouthed off to her made me reconsider. If he had been let go I would call and say I did not appreciate how she handled our situation. Pulling someone out of their own home for sticking up to his Amendment crosses the line. By the way, when trying to get a hold of Norfolk jail in the AM. Don't expect a nice person to pick up the phone. When I asked about his bail and what his charges were the woman on the line told me she won't tell me anything and to call someone else. Yes, those are her words.

    This is the not the first time I have had to deal with Norfolk officers late at night. 2 months ago my roommates and I were sitting on our roof with a beer and we were hit with a spotlight. They ran full background checks on our license for the reason of and I quote "Clear you for any warrants." I made small talk with the officer as when my name was read off dispatch mentioned my CCW.

    So yes that was long, I am fuming that an officer would pull someone out of their house for demanding she produce a warrant. However, my roommate caused the actual arrest when he mouthed off in the car. So I cant complain about the latter. However, I did mention to the LT I did not appreciate the way his officer handled my roommate requesting a warrant. (Sarcasm: Which I am sure he will take note of)

    I guess LEOs least expect to be called to a house and have 3 roommates who know how the situation should be handled.

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    Bad...very bad. But the good news is all yall should have to come up with is $150 for a bail bond to get him out.

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    Scheetz wrote:
    4 squad cars show up to speak with us. A female officer then tried to walk into our house without being invited. My second roommate quickly blocked the door and said without a warrant your not coming in. :P She demanded he move or he will be arrested for obstruction of justice. (At this point everyone in the house, well all 5 of us are standing in our doorway/hallway.) She then grabbed my roommate by the arm, pulled him outside into the yard and cuffed him.
    Without knowing the full story, it sounds as if your roomate was arrested for denying this femal officer entery into a private residence he had lawful possession of as she did not have a warrant to search and he asserted his 4th amendment rights.

    Yeah, you may want to look into getting a lawyer for that one. Understand you may not have the disposable income to "afford justice" but at the very least,

    Amend: I understood the story incorrectly. If they were responding to a possible domestic, the need to ensure everybodies safety visualy is mandated, often time by law.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when youre serious and when youre being sarcastic. Abraham Lincoln

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Wow, they need to be sued. I don't care what kind of bad attitude you might have, unless you're physically threatening the officer or actually commiting a crime. This is what I call an "attitude adjustment" arrest, which is basically charging someone with a crime that is not applicable. It's one of the most despicable acts a police officer can do short of planting drugs/evidence or unjustifiably shooting/killing a private citizen.

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    Sounds to me like the officer had probably cause to make entry and thus no warrant was required. Your friend will be convicted for obstruction of justice (worst case) or disorderly conduct (best case). You can not impede or interfere with the police that are their to investigate a domestic dispute. They had probably cause easily on this.

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    jack wrote:
    Sounds to me like the officer had probably cause to make entry and thus no warrant was required. Your friend will be convicted for obstruction of justice (worst case) or disorderly conduct (best case). You can not impede or interfere with the police that are their to investigate a domestic dispute. They had probably cause easily on this.
    Can you elaborate on this? What was the probable cause as you see it?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    I say your friend doesnt have a leg to stand on......

    An officer can make a warrantless entry into a residence for:

    • Rescue:
    Rescue of someone in imminent threat of death or serious injury.


    • Property damage:
    There must be an imminent threat of substantial property damage.


    • Public danger:
    Includes dangerous hazards or instrumentalities.


    • Destruction of evidence:
    Prior to entry, officers must have probable cause to believe that evidence of a crime is on the premises and the officers are aware of specific facts which reasonably indicate the someone on the premises would destroy or remove the evidence prior to warrant issuance.


    • Hot Pursuit:
    Continuing pursuit of a dangerous suspect in a serious offence.


    • Prevent escape:
    An individual fleeing from lawful police custody may be apprehended.


    If the neighbor reported a "domestic dispute" and a "belligerent" person, a police officer has the duty to enter the residence to ensure that someone is not injured or facing serious boldily injury or death. If the dispute resulted in any type ofdomestic assault, a police officer must determine who the primary aggressor was and make an arrest (arrest required, no 2 ways about it). Your buddy simply got stroked with adisorderly conduct charge as he was, acting disorderly. Your second roommate is quite lucky that he didnt get hooked on Obstruction.

    Cut your losses and move on.
    James Reynolds

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    ProShooter wrote:
    I say your friend doesnt have a leg to stand on......

    An officer can make a warrantless entry into a residence for:

    • Rescue:
    Rescue of someone in imminent threat of death or serious injury.


    • Property damage:
    There must be an imminent threat of substantial property damage.


    • Public danger:
    Includes dangerous hazards or instrumentalities.


    • Destruction of evidence:
    Prior to entry, officers must have probable cause to believe that evidence of a crime is on the premises and the officers are aware of specific facts which reasonably indicate the someone on the premises would destroy or remove the evidence prior to warrant issuance.


    • Hot Pursuit:
    Continuing pursuit of a dangerous suspect in a serious offence.


    • Prevent escape:
    An individual fleeing from lawful police custody may be apprehended.


    If the neighbor reported a "domestic dispute" and a "belligerent" person, a police officer has the duty to enter the residence to ensure that someone is not injured or facing serious boldily injury or death. If the dispute resulted in any type ofdomestic assault, a police officer must determine who the primary aggressor was and make an arrest (arrest required, no 2 ways about it). Your buddy simply got stroked with adisorderly conduct charge as he was, acting disorderly. Your second roommate is quite lucky that he didnt get hooked on Obstruction.

    Cut your losses and move on.
    +1 - They don't need a warrant to check the welfare of a potential domestic dispute (which it actually was - 2 brothers living together is considered a domestic dispute). Sucks, I know, but like ProShooter said, cut your losses and move on...

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    The last person made some interesting points, but may not be specifically applicable to this circumstance. First, remember that there's also such things as state constitutions that may restrict officers further than the federal constitution in this subject.

    That being said, the 4th amendment in this case isn't a method of doing physical obstruction. If he stated to the Police Officer: I do not consent to a search of this premise, and repeatedly stated so, but DIDN'T physically obstruct, then he should not have been arrested. You don't want to EVER waive your rights by saying nothing.

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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    The last person made some interesting points, but may not be specifically applicable to this circumstance. First, remember that there's also such things as state constitutions that may restrict officers further than the federal constitution in this subject.

    That being said, the 4th amendment in this case isn't a method of doing physical obstruction. If he stated to the Police Officer: I do not consent to a search of this premise, and repeatedly stated so, but DIDN'T physically obstruct, then he should not have been arrested. You don't want to EVER waive your rights by saying nothing.
    Remember that no one was searching the premises, they were checking the welfare of a potentially injured person. You cannot block the door and refuse entry under those circumstances.
    James Reynolds

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    I agree with Proshooter, although I'm not sure why he's shouting. Anyway....welcome to modern urban life.

    That's why I like the country, I can shout all I want. No one around except the bears.

    I keep quiet when I come back to the burbs.

    I don't understand why people block the cop, Doing that, you have 3 choices...move, get locked up or whip him/her.

    It's much easier to turn the lock and quietly step outside. The cop won't break the door down unless he/she has a lot more than a guess to go on.

    You don't go to jail because not having a key is NOT obstruction and assaulting an officer is a felony


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    xd.40 wrote:
    +1 - They don't need a warrant to check the welfare of a potential domestic dispute (which it actually was - 2 brothers living together is considered a domestic dispute). Sucks, I know, but like ProShooter said, cut your losses and move on...

    Statute? I haven't found it yet. (Then agtain, also busy )

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    Well we are filing a complaint. My roommate is back now home. Said the female officer's partner talked of tazing him because he would not move from the door. He also said the female officer kept asking if she was in the right for arresting him because he would not move out of the doorway.

    He was given Obstruction of Justice of an officer w/o threat or physical force.

    We understand if a person is in harm they need entry. However, she tried to force her way through without saying a word. The LT asked first before entering telling us why he needed to come in. It appears the arresting officer is quite new, didnt know how to handle the situation and figured because she is a LEO we would make way for her entry without question.



    And for why we blocked the cop. Because its my legal right in my residence, you want inyou can ask. But opening our door and charging in is not the way about it.

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    Exigent Circumstances

    If the police believe someone inside may be injured and needs help they can go in against your objections. Blocking them and demanding they produce "a warrant" will get you charged with obstruction.

    If you think about it.... What if the neighbor called 911 after hearing you screaming whileunknown people were kicking your ass inside so they couldput up on YouTube....?

    How would you feel aboutthe police being 20 feet from your rescue andforced to leave?

    Read up on.....

    Verez v Commonwealth 1985

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/2200032.pdf

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...31&invol=1

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...tx/1170063.txt

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Exigent Circumstances

    If the police believe someone inside may be injured and needs help they can go in against your objections. Blocking them and demanding they produce "a warrant" will get you charged with obstruction.

    If you think about it.... What if the neighbor called 911 after hearing you screaming whileunknown people were kicking your ass inside so they couldput up on YouTube....?

    How would you feel aboutthe police being 20 feet from your rescue andforced to leave?

    Read up on.....

    Verez v Commonwealth 1985

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/2200032.pdf

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...31&invol=1

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...tx/1170063.txt


    I understand that. But when you try and make a forced entry are you going to say why you are? Or will you say nothing and try and run through a 6'7" guy standing in the doorway with his hands in his pockets. We never used an angry tone, we simply stated you need a warrant to come in and search. She never corrected us, nor did any of the other officers by saying someone is in harm we need entry. All she did was charge her way through. Grabbed my roommate and cuffed him.

    It is still ****** police work. There was a far better way for her to go about gaining entry. Isnt that what is taught in the force. Cause I remember learning it, verbal commands first, then physical.

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    peter nap wrote:
    I agree with Proshooter, although I'm not sure why he's shouting. Anyway....welcome to modern urban life.
    I wasnt shouting, I simply used a larger font....
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    Agreed all. They have the authority to make a cursory check on a Domestic Disturbance call. They can't open drawers, look in closets, etc, just make a check that everyone is OK.

    Suggestions for future encounters with the police, or authority in general, whether or not they act like jerks or JBTs...

    If an officer wants to arrest you for standing in your own front yard, be firm, polite and please, cooperate.

    Be polite and cooperative, even when they blatantly violate your rights.

    Depending on the quantity and quality of witnesses, there is a serious imbalance of power, with you, the citizen, generally being on the short end. The officer, right or wrong, has the power to make your life absolutely miserable, and in an 'at the scene' confrontation, you will lose.

    Your best action is to remain quiet, speak only when spoken to, only give direct answers with no elaboration, take notes and be a good witness.

    Even if an officer has absolutely no probable cause he can and often will ask if he may search your vehicle or come inside your home. He has the right to ask, it's his job.

    You also have a right to politely refuse. Should he insist and search in spite of your polite and clear objections, don't get in his way.

    AFTER the incident is over and adreneline and alcohol have dissipated is the time to start asserting your rights, writing letters, filing complaints, calling lawyers and pursuing other 'procedural' channels.

    NEVER be a disrespectful jerk when sitting in the police officers office. (his car) Just as your being a jerk doesn't justify his being one, neither do his attitude and/or actions justify you being one either. When the smoke clears you want it to be obvious that YOU were the one who remained on the high ground.

    ALWAYS follow through with appropriate action if your rights have truly been violated.



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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Lysander wrote:
    xd.40 wrote:
    +1 - They don't need a warrant to check the welfare of a potential domestic dispute (which it actually was - 2 brothers living together is considered a domestic dispute). Sucks, I know, but like ProShooter said, cut your losses and move on...

    Statute? I haven't found it yet. (Then agtain, also busy )

    Nothing in the above message constitutes Legal Advice. Material is provided for informational/entertainment or other purposes and is not intended to constitute or be relied upon as Legal Advice. This is not an offer to form an attorney-client relationship. This is not advertising, nor intended to be such. While I am an attorney, I am NOT YOUR attorney.

    Lysander - it isnt in a statute, its case law

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    Scheetz wrote:
    I understand that. But when you try and make a forced entry are you going to say why you are? Or will you say nothing and try and run through a 6'7" guy standing in the doorway with his hands in his pockets. We never used an angry tone, we simply stated you need a warrant to come in and search. She never corrected us, nor did any of the other officers by saying someone is in harm we need entry. All she did was charge her way through. Grabbed my roommate and cuffed him.

    It is still ****** police work. There was a far better way for her to go about gaining entry. Isnt that what is taught in the force. Cause I remember learning it, verbal commands first, then physical.
    Sorry... This is not a debate at the front door. They do not have to explain everything to you at that moment. Even if she had... I am confidentyou still would have demanded a warrant and wanted proof of what she was telling you. This would delay her entry and delay medical aid to anyone needing it.

    If they are forcing their way in they probably have a good reason. You can always sue them later if they were wrong. You had nothing to hide, right? No drug lab, not providing alcohol tounderage girls.

    The LT was only being nice since they had already made entry and get a quick look seeing nothing obvious. You can still see he needed to check on everyone.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Scheetz wrote:
    I understand that. But when you try and make a forced entry are you going to say why you are? Or will you say nothing and try and run through a 6'7" guy standing in the doorway with his hands in his pockets. We never used an angry tone, we simply stated you need a warrant to come in and search. She never corrected us, nor did any of the other officers by saying someone is in harm we need entry. All she did was charge her way through. Grabbed my roommate and cuffed him.

    It is still ****** police work. There was a far better way for her to go about gaining entry. Isnt that what is taught in the force. Cause I remember learning it, verbal commands first, then physical.
    Sorry... This is not a debate at the front door. They do not have to explain everything to you at that moment. Even if she had... I am confidentyou still would have demanded a warrant and wanted proof of what she was telling you. This would delay her entry and delay medical aid to anyone needing it.

    If they are forcing their way in they probably have a good reason. You can always sue them later if they were wrong. You had nothing to hide, right? No drug lab, not providing alcohol tounderage girls.

    The LT was only being nice since they had already made entry and get a quick look seeing nothing obvious. You can still see he needed to check on everyone.
    ++1 Absolutely agree with this!
    James Reynolds

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    TheEggman wrote:
    Agreed all. They have the authority to make a cursory check on a Domestic Disturbance call. They can't open drawers, look in closets, etc, just make a check that everyone is OK.

    Suggestions for future encounters with the police, or authority in general, whether or not they act like jerks or JBTs...

    If an officer wants to arrest you for standing in your own front yard, be firm, polite and please, cooperate.

    Be polite and cooperative, even when they blatantly violate your rights.

    Depending on the quantity and quality of witnesses, there is a serious imbalance of power, with you, the citizen, generally being on the short end. The officer, right or wrong, has the power to make your life absolutely miserable, and in an 'at the scene' confrontation, you will lose.

    Your best action is to remain quiet, speak only when spoken to, only give direct answers with no elaboration, take notes and be a good witness.

    Even if an officer has absolutely no probable cause he can and often will ask if he may search your vehicle or come inside your home. He has the right to ask, it's his job.

    You also have a right to politely refuse. Should he insist and search in spite of your polite and clear objections, don't get in his way.

    AFTER the incident is over and adreneline and alcohol have dissipated is the time to start asserting your rights, writing letters, filing complaints, calling lawyers and pursuing other 'procedural' channels.

    NEVER be a disrespectful jerk when sitting in the police officers office. (his car) Just as your being a jerk doesn't justify his being one, neither do his attitude and/or actions justify you being one either. When the smoke clears you want it to be obvious that YOU were the one who remained on the high ground.

    ALWAYS follow through with appropriate action if your rights have truly been violated.


    +1

    This is the practice I followed with my incident withan Henrico PD officer who was later disciplined, and I still believe it is exactly why things worked out so well for me (and not as much for the officer).

    It seems like common sense to me; why some people don't see it this way is beyond me....



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    Don't forget to send a FOIA requesting the 911 call and dispatch radio traffic. This to verify that there actually was a "domestic" call. There is no reason to accept the police officer's statement of their purpose.

    It is easily within reach for the police to twist a call into an excuse to come in and look around.Logic would dictate that since that is all the LT did,then likely that is all they wanted to do; but again, there is no reason to accept the officer's word.

    If the officer knew for sure that she had authority to arrest the room mate, she wouldn't have been asking about it later.

    Also, whoever falsely reported the domestic dispute needs to be acted against. Its not hard to tell when only one person is yelling. And its not hard to tell when someone is just yelling to make noise, and when there is a real fight going on, unless one of thefighters is mute.

    Separately, this obstruction nonsense needs to be handled. Citizens can't be expected to know all the intricacies of the case law on the 4th Amendment. It sets them up for a guaranteed arrest if they stand on their perceived rights against warrantless searches in circumstances like these. Police are known to lie.How can a conscientious citizen accept the police officer's word on the spot that the officer has authority to enter when his whole life the citizen has been taught, "not without a warrant."

    My outrage would be boundless had this happened to me.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Don't forget to send a FOIA requesting the 911 call and dispatch radio traffic. This to verify that there actually was a "domestic" call. There is no reason to accept the police officer's statement of their purpose.

    It is easily within reach for the police to twist a call into an excuse to come in and look around.Logic would dictate that since that is all the LT did,then likely that is all they wanted to do; but again, there is no reason to accept the officer's word.

    If the officer knew for sure that she had authority to arrest the room mate, she wouldn't have been asking about it later.

    Also, whoever falsely reported the domestic dispute needs to be acted against. Its not hard to tell when only one person is yelling. And its not hard to tell when someone is just yelling to make noise, and when there is a real fight going on, unless one of thefighters is mute.

    Separately, this obstruction nonsense needs to be handled. Citizens can't be expected to know all the intricacies of the case law on the 4th Amendment. It sets them up for a guaranteed arrest if they stand on their perceived rights against warrantless searches in circumstances like these. Police are known to lie.How can a conscientious citizen accept the police officer's word on the spot that the officer has authority to enter when his whole life the citizen has been taught, "not without a warrant."

    My outrage would be boundless had this happened to me.
    Not attacking you personally, but how many times has it been said on this board that the police should be better informed when they make a mistake? They should know the laws and damn them all the hell when they mess up...Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the citizens to know their rights?

    And why attack the police because they were called? You almost make it sound like they targeted this specific residence. They have to act on what they are told by the person that made the call.

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    "And for why we blocked the cop. Because its my legal right in my residence, you want inyou can ask."

    What I am seeing is that you say you only wanted to be asked and you would have allowed them to enter.

    So it seems that you have become offended that the officer did not bow down to you as the king of the castle. Even though you understand she had the authority to make entry you still want to complain.

    She did not need to ask and when a LEO demands entry it is probably best to allow since they are going to come in anyway. Asking and demanding create two different situations. Did you really think standing in the doorway would keep them out?



    I am quickly reminds of the movie "A few good men"

    JESSEP
    But you have to ask me nicely.

    KAFFEE stops. Turns around. Sam and JO stop and turn.

    KAFFEE
    I beg your pardon?

    JESSEP
    You have to ask me nicely. You see,
    Danny, I can deal with the bullets and the
    bombs and the blood. I can deal with the
    heat and the stress and the fear. I don't
    want money and I don't want medals. What
    I want is for you to stand there in that
    faggoty white uniform, and with your
    Harvard mouth, extend me some fuckin'
    courtesy. You gotta ask me nicely.



    You wanted to be asked and it was not required in this situation. You willingly and knowingly blocked the cop without fully understanding the totality of the situation.

    I say caulk it up to a learning experience and let it go.

    They did not target you're housefor entry to go find illegal activity. They were called there and determined it was necessary to check on everyones safety.

    IMO.. you look like a jack ass right now. :?

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member
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    Nov 2006
    Location
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    18,766

    Post imported post

    Highlander wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Don't forget to send a FOIA requesting the 911 call and dispatch radio traffic. This to verify that there actually was a "domestic" call. There is no reason to accept the police officer's statement of their purpose.

    It is easily within reach for the police to twist a call into an excuse to come in and look around.Logic would dictate that since that is all the LT did,then likely that is all they wanted to do; but again, there is no reason to accept the officer's word.

    If the officer knew for sure that she had authority to arrest the room mate, she wouldn't have been asking about it later.

    Also, whoever falsely reported the domestic dispute needs to be acted against. Its not hard to tell when only one person is yelling. And its not hard to tell when someone is just yelling to make noise, and when there is a real fight going on, unless one of thefighters is mute.

    Separately, this obstruction nonsense needs to be handled. Citizens can't be expected to know all the intricacies of the case law on the 4th Amendment. It sets them up for a guaranteed arrest if they stand on their perceived rights against warrantless searches in circumstances like these. Police are known to lie.How can a conscientious citizen accept the police officer's word on the spot that the officer has authority to enter when his whole life the citizen has been taught, "not without a warrant."

    My outrage would be boundless had this happened to me.
    Not attacking you personally, but how many times has it been said on this board that the police should be better informed when they make a mistake? They should know the laws and damn them all the hell when they mess up...Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the citizens to know their rights?

    And why attack the police because they were called? You almost make it sound like they targeted this specific residence. They have to act on what they are told by the person that made the call.

    What would it take, seriously, to train all citizens, or even a significant number of them to know the intricacies of the 4th Amendment? I've been studying evenings, a few hours here, a few hours there for over a year to aquire my level of knowledge. I won't hold myself up as some wizard, but compared to the general population, lets face it, some of us are about as expert as you can be without being a lawyer. How many citizens are like that outside of the ACLU and some non-profit groups?

    Now, if everyone were that knowledgeable, great!!! And great in more ways than one. I'm all for it. The first immediate thing we would see is that police would be forced to become extremely professional.

    But not even close to everybody is.That is the situation.The 4th Amendment is a controlling factor everysingle time a police officer says even hello to a citizen. Its not asking too muchfor police to be completely familiar with the current policies (case law) affecting how they do their job.Let me be clear. I am nottalking about the summaries prepared by the DA,thepolice accreditation agency, orwhoever. I am talking aboutthe actual court opinions themselves. I can readthem. So can police.

    Yes, citizens shouldknow their rights. But goddam it, it shouldn't be actionable to knowand act on the level of right's knowledge taught in high school. Especially on points that might come up once or twice in a life time. Its one thing to not exerciseyour rights andget pushed around by the cops. Its something else to think you are totally in theclear in exercisingwhat you were taught in high school,and then find out the government itself set you up so youwould get arrested for doing so.

    As I said, my outragewould be boundless.



    BTW, all it would take for the current circumstance is a statute immunizing a citizen from prosecution for standing on what he thinks are his rights. Or preventing prosecution. The cop can drag him out of the way and temporarily cuff him; but then turns him loose once the checking is done. Also, just asa somewhat related example of the state recognizing people may stand on their rights erroneously, do not police in VA have to inform a citizen of the consequences of refusing a blood alcohol test?

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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