What is a rifle for?

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Euromutt wrote:

As a private citizen, especially in a "breakdown of the social order" scenario, that's not a luxury you're going to have. In such a scenario, the main advantage the AR-15 variant will have over an AK-variant chambered in 7.62x39mmR is that ammunition (and spare mags) may be easier to scavenge, especially given the proliferation of AR-variant "patrol rifles" among law enforcement these days. But that advantage could be mitigated to a large extent by opting for an AK-variant chambered for 5.56mm.

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actually, as a private citizen score one for the AKM's in 7.62X39. Have you priced 5.56, or .223, lately? A case of 7.62X39 can be had for less than 200$ in most cases & 30-round magazines are often less than 20$ each.

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FightingGlock19 wrote:

Euromutt wrote:

As a private citizen, especially in a "breakdown of the social order" scenario, that's not a luxury you're going to have. In such a scenario, the main advantage the AR-15 variant will have over an AK-variant chambered in 7.62x39mmR is that ammunition (and spare mags) may be easier to scavenge, especially given the proliferation of AR-variant "patrol rifles" among law enforcement these days. But that advantage could be mitigated to a large extent by opting for an AK-variant chambered for 5.56mm.

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actually, as a private citizen score one for the AKM's in 7.62X39. Have you priced 5.56, or .223, lately? A case of 7.62X39 can be had for less than 200$ in most cases & 30-round magazines are often less than 20$ each.

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You should be able to get AK magazines for $10-13 each. $20 is a rediculous price that only gun stores and pawn shops charge. Sadly, that's the going rate for non-internet sales.

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ChinChin wrote:

FightingGlock19 wrote:

when Gabe Suareztalks about a fighting rifle, I (among others) listen. The man knows his sh*t.

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I've seen Gabe Suarez and haven't been too impressed. The jail-time served and criminal felony charges aside, he's a bit "holier then thou" when referencing the teaching style and direction of other instructors. More then 1 person I know has been in one of his classes and heard him bad mouth other trainers who were teaching basic 101 stuff.

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From what I've read, he often has a good reason for the badmouthing. The biggest difference between Suarez and others is his focus on relentlessly testing everything in force on force exercises that are as realistic as he can make them. The result (according to him and his fans) is that much of what others teach as basic 101 stuff is actually a bad idea. From his writing that I've read, I don't think he badmouths other instructors for self-aggrandizement, but because he sincerely believes that their techniques are ineffective, and in some cases actually dangerous.

Now, I should point out that I'm writing this from the perspective of a total "armchair warrior", with no training at all (Gabe's or otherwise) beyond a little tactical training from the military (10% cop training, 90% grunt training). However, I'm also an engineer, and I have a bone-deep belief that if you haven't tested it, it doesn't work, and what I read on-line from most of the schools says nothing about testing, which inclines me favorably toward Gabe's opinions. Even more impressive to me is his willingness to change his mind when experience proves that a technique doesn't work as well as he thought it did.

I might give him a little less credence when talking about rifles, though, for the simple reason that it's pretty hard to conduct accurate exercises to test rifle doctrine. Airsoft can simulate pistol combat ranges pretty effectively, but not rifle ranges. Just not accurate enough at those distances. Lasers, on the other hand are TOO accurate.

In any case, he's certainly well worth listening to. Take it with a grain of salt, but you should do that with anyone.

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FightingGlock19 wrote:

actually, as a private citizen score one for the AKM's in 7.62X39. Have you priced 5.56, or .223, lately? A case of 7.62X39 can be had for less than 200$ in most cases & 30-round magazines are often less than 20$ each.

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There's a reason I said "scavenge"; I was thinking of what happens after the supply of ammo you were able to carry with you after you were forced to "bug out" starts to run low.

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swillden wrote:

ChinChin wrote:

FightingGlock19 wrote:

when Gabe Suareztalks about a fighting rifle, I (among others) listen. The man knows his sh*t.

Click to expand...

I've seen Gabe Suarez and haven't been too impressed. The jail-time served and criminal felony charges aside, he's a bit "holier then thou" when referencing the teaching style and direction of other instructors. More then 1 person I know has been in one of his classes and heard him bad mouth other trainers who were teaching basic 101 stuff.

Click to expand...

From what I've read, he often has a good reason for the badmouthing. The biggest difference between Suarez and others is his focus on relentlessly testing everything in force on force exercises that are as realistic as he can make them. The result (according to him and his fans) is that much of what others teach as basic 101 stuff is actually a bad idea. From his writing that I've read, I don't think he badmouths other instructors for self-aggrandizement, but because he sincerely believes that their techniques are ineffective, and in some cases actually dangerous.

Now, I should point out that I'm writing this from the perspective of a total "armchair warrior", with no training at all (Gabe's or otherwise) beyond a little tactical training from the military (10% cop training, 90% grunt training). However, I'm also an engineer, and I have a bone-deep belief that if you haven't tested it, it doesn't work, and what I read on-line from most of the schools says nothing about testing, which inclines me favorably toward Gabe's opinions. Even more impressive to me is his willingness to change his mind when experience proves that a technique doesn't work as well as he thought it did.

I might give him a little less credence when talking about rifles, though, for the simple reason that it's pretty hard to conduct accurate exercises to test rifle doctrine. Airsoft can simulate pistol combat ranges pretty effectively, but not rifle ranges. Just not accurate enough at those distances. Lasers, on the other hand are TOO accurate.

In any case, he's certainly well worth listening to. Take it with a grain of salt, but you should do that with anyone.

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ChinChin
I've taken several of his courses. I am an engineer. Gabe evolves his training as his methods are PROVEN obsolete. You won't find many other instructors so willing to do that.
He cares about what works to get you and me home from a gun-fight and eschews anything that's "accepted" or "pretty."
This is the reason I get behind his philosophy.

As to the legal trouble. He has addressed this years ago and I'm pretty sure that no felonies ever stuck. None of the circumstances were violent. Basically, he was on disability from the LAPD and he kept training guys, making money that way. The doctor told him running down armed thugs was a No-Go, but showing dough-boys like you and me how to jump out of the way of bullets probably wasn't going to hurt him. Sounds pretty reasonable to me, but if he broke his contract and there are legal consequences, he must and did suffer them.

ChinChin, I would suggest that you train Force-on-Force with some of the WarriorTalk guys. That's just $10. The classes are priceless.
Anyone who wants to train, PM me.

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Euromutt wrote:

FightingGlock19 wrote:

actually, as a private citizen score one for the AKM's in 7.62X39. Have you priced 5.56, or .223, lately? A case of 7.62X39 can be had for less than 200$ in most cases & 30-round magazines are often less than 20$ each.

Click to expand...

There's a reason I said "scavenge"; I was thinking of what happens after the supply of ammo you were able to carry with you after you were forced to "bug out" starts to run low.

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If you plan your SHTF strategy well and avoid engaging anything that can be avoided, instead of running around playing special ops, then by the time you are running low on ammo, it doesn't matter how prepaired you were, because society will have broken down to a point that you couldn't even imagine and scavenging will be much different than you will have planned for.

Unless you're playing wannabe commando, 300 rnds should last you at least a few months, if not a few years. A major firefight could empty that 300 round cache pretty quickly, which is why you should probably have about 500-1000 rounds in your bug out kit (remember, mags are re-usable). By the time you are out of 500-1000 rounds of ammo, resupply will be either very easy or impossible. Not only that, but if you have used 1000 rounds, there will be plenty of other rifles lying around, if you can't find your caliber.

If you're worried about zombies, it's a different story



EDIT: Also remember that there are a lot of people out there who stockpile ammo just because they know that in one of these situations ammo will replace cash as currency. So there will be a healthy supply of ammo, but it will cost you something of trading value. Remember to pack something of value in your bug out kit that could be traded for ammo. An extra bullet proof vest could be a good investment for trading purposes, or an extra GPS, etc. I'm sure most ammo horders would also trade ammo for services, so you may be able to help build rebuild a house or a barn in exchange for ammo. If the water supply is contaminated, an extra water purification system could fetch a healthy price. And when you think about it that way, which would you rather carry around? An extra water purification setup, or an extra case of ammunition?

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expvideo wrote:

Not only that, but if you have used 1000 rounds, there will be plenty of other rifles lying around, if you can't find your caliber.

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LMFAO. Great point.

But those zombies can be troublesome...