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Thread: Does OC Entail a VULNERABILITY Relative to CC ?

  1. #1
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    I don 't wanna get anyone mad at me in an OC forum, but on reflection, I discern a possible vulnerability in OC that does not exist in CC.

    I agree that if muggers see that u have a gun on your hip, most likely thay 'll be dissuaded and deflected toward an easier, softer and less dangerous prey item.

    HOWEVER, if a mugger identifies u as a rich target, expected to carry a lot of cash and jewelry, then in the same spirit and motive as a bank robber or armored car robber: hemaytake the time to PLAN his predatory attack.

    If he actually SEES your gun on your hip, then it falls to him to DO something about that, in furtherance of his plans ofrobbery, for instance an approach from behind, so that he has the drop on u when he demands your wealth.

    On the other hand,

    if your defensive ordnance is CC, when he demands your cash,at your option, u can draw your piece instead of your wallet.

    It seems a little more risky to draw from your hip, inopen vu, right in front of him while he 's got his gun pointed at one the favored parts of your body, to which u may havegrown attached.

    Therefore, upon consideration, it seems to me that from a TACTICALstandpoint,CC is defensively better and more effective.

    WHATAYATHINK ??

    David

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    You fail to take into account the deterent factor of OC, and the increased time to draw from concealment....
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    Therefore, upon consideration, it seems to me that from a TACTICALstandpoint,CC is defensively better and more effective.

    WHATAYATHINK ??
    I think if CC had ANY "tactical" advantage, LEO's would most certainly make use of it......

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    TechnoWeenie wrote:
    You fail to take into account the deterent factor of OC, and the increased time to draw from concealment....
    OK, now I have colored, emboldened, and raised the size of the font of the part of my original post in which I recognized the deterent value of OC. We agree as to this deterent value, ASSUMING that he has not dedicated his attention to u because he expects an enriched harvest. ( Like if he found out that u always carry a $10 Gold Piece from 1795 in your wallet and he wanted it, larcenous numismatist that he is )

    I was going to question whether drawing from concealment takes more time, but then I remembered that there have been, in American history, some fellows who have been very, very fast at drawing from their hips; even so, with all respect to them, I 've gotta wonder about drawing from your hip, while he is aiming at one of your favorite bodyparts.

    If he expects u to take your hand out of your jacket with your wallet in it and u draw a gun on him instead, u have the advantage of stealth. Right ?

    In my opinion, unless u have practiced speed drawing from your hipa lot, drawing from within your jacket will probably take about the same amount of time.

    Have there been any studies about averagerelative drawing time OC v. CC?

    David



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    Comp-tech wrote:
    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    Therefore, upon consideration, it seems to me that from a TACTICALstandpoint,CC is defensively better and more effective.

    WHATAYATHINK ??
    I think if CC had ANY "tactical" advantage, LEO's would most certainly make use of it......
    U mean: thay don 't use BUGs ?

    and detectives all OC ?

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    I think anyone can make up any kind of hypothetical situation in which one method of carry is better than another.

    Can you come up with a situation where it's better to only carry on your weak side?

    A situation where it's better to carry hidden on top of your head beneath a big wig?

    A situation where you're safer if you only have one bullet?

    You can make up ANY kind of situation, but in real life, 95% or more of the time, the deterrent factor of open carry is going to win out.

    Look at it like driving down a wide-open desert highway and seeing a cop two miles ahead with his lights on and a radar gun out the window. Contrast that with a cop on the other side of a fast blind curve, just waiting for you to pop into view. Sure, the cop around the curve has the element of surprise, and he's going to nail you. The cop in plain view will never get to write you a ticket, because you'll have slowed down long before you get close to him.

    If you're really that worried about it, CC a backup - that way you get the deterrent factor of OC, plus the surprise factor of CC.

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    mzbk2l wrote:
    I think anyone can make up any kind of hypothetical situation in which one method of carry is better than another.

    Can you come up with a situation where it's better to only carry on your weak side?

    A situation where it's better to carry hidden on top of your head beneath a big wig?

    A situation where you're safer if you only have one bullet?

    You can make up ANY kind of situation, but in real life, 95% or more of the time, the deterrent factor of open carry is going to win out.

    Look at it like driving down a wide-open desert highway and seeing a cop two miles ahead with his lights on and a radar gun out the window. Contrast that with a cop on the other side of a fast blind curve, just waiting for you to pop into view. Sure, the cop around the curve has the element of surprise, and he's going to nail you. The cop in plain view will never get to write you a ticket, because you'll have slowed down long before you get close to him.

    If you're really that worried about it, CC a backup - that way you get the deterrent factor of OC, plus the surprise factor of CC.
    I c your points.

    SO STIPULATED.

    David


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    The comparison between the usual street mugger and the armored car thieves are like night and day.

    Most common street muggers are totally spur of the moment, non planning, impulsive idiots. They're really not going to be tactically "sizing you up" much except to maybe compare you to a little old lady. They're going to hit quick and hope to escape just as fast. Most muggers aren't known for their mental prowess.

    The armored car thief is cool, calculated, well planned, well thought out (well at least most of them). Think Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. This is the kind of guy who WILL notice your piece and what it's capabilities are. He'll then determine whether to move in or wait it out.

    As OCers and CCer's we are more at risk of coming across the common street mugger, or home invader/smash'n grab type.

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    This has been tossed around before.

    Please provide one incident were a citzen (non sworn person)OC'er has been robbed or was the target of a criminal.

    The one on Newton Patent has been debunked.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
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    Agent19 wrote:
    This has been tossed around before.

    Please provide one incident were a citzen (non sworn person)OC'er has been robbed or was the target of a criminal.

    The one on Newton Patent has been debunked.
    Offhand, I can 't think of any; my inquiry was of a predominantly theoretical nature.

    David

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    I carry however looks best with what I'm wearing



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    Rey wrote:
    I carry however looks best with what I'm wearing

    What do u carry ? Loaded with what ?

    Did stopping power enter into your choice ?

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    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    What do u carry ? Loaded with what ?

    Did stopping power enter into your choice ?
    Lotsa other-thread discussion on these two points.

    Back to the topic.

    Yes, I imagine you're right. Given the right circumstances OC might attract a predator. I think most are looking for an easy score that doesn't risk holes in their skin.

    Awareness of your surroundings will give you a heads up. Condition Yellow.

    I OC primarily to promote 2A rights,secondarily for comfort and for speed of access to the weapon. I've decided the gain from that promotion outweighs what veryfewrisks there are from revealing to bad guys that I'm armed.

    Despite the above-stated priority of my personal reasons, I reserve the right to change them, and do not concede against speed of access to the weapon.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    What do u carry ? Loaded with what ?

    Did stopping power enter into your choice ?
    Lotsa other-thread discussion on these two points.

    Back to the topic.

    Yes, I imagine you're right. Given the right circumstances OC might attract a predator. I think most are looking for an easy score that doesn't risk holes in their skin.

    Awareness of your surroundings will give you a heads up. Condition Yellow.

    I OC primarily to promote 2A rights,secondarily for comfort and for speed of access to the weapon. I've decided the gain from that promotion outweighs what veryfewrisks there are from revealing to bad guys that I'm armed.

    Despite the above-stated priority of my personal reasons, I reserve the right to change them, and do not concede against speed of access to the weapon.
    Thank u for your promotion of 2A rights

    Have u considered the wisdom of aCC BUG ?

    or is that too much weight all the time ?

    David

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    Could it happen? Sure. Does it happen? No. You might as well make an argument for not driving a car because the fuel tank might explode. Sure, it's technically possible, but it just doesn't happen.

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    FogRider wrote:
    Could it happen? Sure. Does it happen? No. You might as well make an argument for not driving a car because the fuel tank might explode. Sure, it's technically possible, but it just doesn't happen.
    I like your argument; well said !

    David

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    In my opinion, this is where proper training comes into effect. If you are able to redirect his weapon, and draw your's, you have a much better chance due to beter draw time.

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    WhiteRabbit22 wrote:
    In my opinion, this is where proper training comes into effect. If you are able to redirect his weapon, and draw your's, you have a much better chance due to beter draw time.
    Sounds interesting; do u have any particular training in mind ?

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    My statistics below are complete made up and pulled out of my ass, just like most other statistics are.

    My take is that 99% of criminals are cowards, and will avoid you if they see you are open carrying. Thus we prevent 99% of threats in this way.

    But yes, there still is that 1% of criminals who could see an OC'er as an opportunity. They may even be more likely to target you when they see you with a gun.

    Myself. I'm willing play the odds and prevent the 99% even though in doing so I may be very slightly increasing the odds of that 1% going after me.In the end, I'm 99% less likely to ever have to use my gun than someone who CC's. And that is why I OC.

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    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    Comp-tech wrote:
    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    Therefore, upon consideration, it seems to me that from a TACTICALstandpoint,CC is defensively better and more effective.

    WHATAYATHINK ??
    I think if CC had ANY "tactical" advantage, LEO's would most certainly make use of it......
    U mean: thay don 't use BUGs ?

    and detectives all OC ?
    I didn't say that some do not use BUGs.....but, their PRIMARY weapon is OC.....BUG = BACK UP GUN
    And no, ALL detectives don't OC....most do...at least untill they put on a jacket/coat....the point being, they don't PURPOSELY CC...they CC in relation to they way they happen to be dressed.
    You ever see a detective remove his jacket/coat then proceed to conceal their weapon?

  21. #21
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    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    If he expects u to take your hand out of your jacket with your wallet in it and u draw a gun on him instead, u have the advantage of stealth. Right ?

    Wrong....in that situation, don't you think that "he" will be weatching your hand/s very carefully?...I know I would.

    In my opinion, unless u have practiced speed drawing from your hipa lot, drawing from within your jacket will probably take about the same amount of time.

    All I can say to this is, you have obviously never practiced both methods...nor even applied any logic to the question. For eaxample, ask yourself "how many seperate movements/actions does it take for me to have my weapon "on target" and ready to fire" from CC?....from OC?
    Even as a thought experiment alone, without practice with either method, the answer should be painfully obvious.

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  23. #23
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    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    WhiteRabbit22 wrote:
    In my opinion, this is where proper training comes into effect. If you are able to redirect his weapon, and draw your's, you have a much better chance due to beter draw time.
    Sounds interesting; do u have any particular training in mind ?
    There's many different methods, some of which are just my adaptation from various Aikido techniques. Don't put your hands up, that is a bad idea, because you're more vunerable. instead, when the criminal tells you to put your hands up, make your move, he's going to expect moving hands at that point. If the shooter is right handed and holding the gun with his right hand, redirect the weapon to his left side, closing him off from a counter-attack with his free hand. If you are right handed, do this with your left hand, leaving you plenty of room to draw with your right, and fire.

    similar to this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeNPJ0fgWVY

    i realize it's from a movie, but his techiques are pretty spot on. (cept for putting his hands up.)

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    OmSigDAVID wrote:
    SNIP Have u considered the wisdom of aCC BUG ?

    or is that too much weight all the time ?
    I subscribe to the idea (Massad Ayoob's?) that if you are justified in carrying one gun, you are justified in carrying two.

    Its more a financial consideration for me. One the financial catches up, I'll get myself a nice little consideration.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Just my 0.2,

    You emplored our pardon to not get agitated when you tried to make a point about something that has been beaten to death. But instead of excepting the answers given you went out of your way to add an irrational tone to your posts. From an outsiders perspective I would guess that your post reflect a rather brazen attitude and that you were not looking for answers but more so to argue with everyone for points your perceptions dictate as invalid.

    You cannot calculate the statistics you are looking for because no one intending harm is going to walk up toa personwhom is OC'ing and tell them that they were about to rob them and then they saw the gun and decided to look elsewhere.

    The decision to OC comes from convictions to better the community around you. ByOC'ing you have more oportunities to educate people about citizens carryand the right to do so. For me that is plenty an advantage to do said activity.

    So to put this to rest if you are looking for answers I suggest you listen to what iswritten and not try to contradict everything that is typed.

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