• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Does OC Entail a VULNERABILITY Relative to CC ?

OmSigDAVID

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
137
Location
, ,
imported post

I don 't wanna get anyone mad at me in an OC forum, but on reflection, I discern a possible vulnerability in OC that does not exist in CC.

I agree that if muggers see that u have a gun on your hip, most likely thay 'll be dissuaded and deflected toward an easier, softer and less dangerous prey item.

HOWEVER, if a mugger identifies u as a rich target, expected to carry a lot of cash and jewelry, then in the same spirit and motive as a bank robber or armored car robber: hemaytake the time to PLAN his predatory attack.

If he actually SEES your gun on your hip, then it falls to him to DO something about that, in furtherance of his plans ofrobbery, for instance an approach from behind, so that he has the drop on u when he demands your wealth.

On the other hand,

if your defensive ordnance is CC, when he demands your cash,at your option, u can draw your piece instead of your wallet.

It seems a little more risky to draw from your hip, inopen vu, right in front of him while he 's got his gun pointed at one the favored parts of your body, to which u may havegrown attached.

Therefore, upon consideration, it seems to me that from a TACTICALstandpoint,CC is defensively better and more effective.

WHATAYATHINK ??

David
 

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
imported post

You fail to take into account the deterent factor of OC, and the increased time to draw from concealment....
 

Comp-tech

State Researcher
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
934
Location
, Alabama, USA
imported post

OmSigDAVID wrote:
Therefore, upon consideration, it seems to me that from a TACTICALstandpoint,CC is defensively better and more effective.

WHATAYATHINK ??
I think if CC had ANY "tactical" advantage, LEO's would most certainly make use of it......
 

OmSigDAVID

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
137
Location
, ,
imported post

TechnoWeenie wrote:
You fail to take into account the deterent factor of OC, and the increased time to draw from concealment....

OK, now I have colored, emboldened, and raised the size of the font of the part of my original post in which I recognized the deterent value of OC. We agree as to this deterent value, ASSUMING that he has not dedicated his attention to u because he expects an enriched harvest. ( Like if he found out that u always carry a $10 Gold Piece from 1795 in your wallet and he wanted it, larcenous numismatist that he is )

I was going to question whether drawing from concealment takes more time, but then I remembered that there have been, in American history, some fellows who have been very, very fast at drawing from their hips; even so, with all respect to them, I 've gotta wonder about drawing from your hip, while he is aiming at one of your favorite bodyparts.

If he expects u to take your hand out of your jacket with your wallet in it and u draw a gun on him instead, u have the advantage of stealth. Right ?

In my opinion, unless u have practiced speed drawing from your hipa lot, drawing from within your jacket will probably take about the same amount of time.

Have there been any studies about averagerelative drawing time OC v. CC?

David
 

OmSigDAVID

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
137
Location
, ,
imported post

Comp-tech wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Therefore, upon consideration, it seems to me that from a TACTICALstandpoint,CC is defensively better and more effective.

WHATAYATHINK ??
I think if CC had ANY "tactical" advantage, LEO's would most certainly make use of it......

U mean: thay don 't use BUGs ?

and detectives all OC ?
 

mzbk2l

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Messages
425
Location
Superstition Mountain, Arizona, USA
imported post

I think anyone can make up any kind of hypothetical situation in which one method of carry is better than another.

Can you come up with a situation where it's better to only carry on your weak side?

A situation where it's better to carry hidden on top of your head beneath a big wig?

A situation where you're safer if you only have one bullet?

You can make up ANY kind of situation, but in real life, 95% or more of the time, the deterrent factor of open carry is going to win out.

Look at it like driving down a wide-open desert highway and seeing a cop two miles ahead with his lights on and a radar gun out the window. Contrast that with a cop on the other side of a fast blind curve, just waiting for you to pop into view. Sure, the cop around the curve has the element of surprise, and he's going to nail you. The cop in plain view will never get to write you a ticket, because you'll have slowed down long before you get close to him.

If you're really that worried about it, CC a backup - that way you get the deterrent factor of OC, plus the surprise factor of CC.
 

OmSigDAVID

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
137
Location
, ,
imported post

mzbk2l wrote:
I think anyone can make up any kind of hypothetical situation in which one method of carry is better than another.

Can you come up with a situation where it's better to only carry on your weak side?

A situation where it's better to carry hidden on top of your head beneath a big wig?

A situation where you're safer if you only have one bullet?

You can make up ANY kind of situation, but in real life, 95% or more of the time, the deterrent factor of open carry is going to win out.

Look at it like driving down a wide-open desert highway and seeing a cop two miles ahead with his lights on and a radar gun out the window. Contrast that with a cop on the other side of a fast blind curve, just waiting for you to pop into view. Sure, the cop around the curve has the element of surprise, and he's going to nail you. The cop in plain view will never get to write you a ticket, because you'll have slowed down long before you get close to him.

If you're really that worried about it, CC a backup - that way you get the deterrent factor of OC, plus the surprise factor of CC.
I c your points.

SO STIPULATED.

David
 

Evil Ernie

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
779
Location
Castle Rock, Colorado, USA
imported post

The comparison between the usual street mugger and the armored car thieves are like night and day.

Most common street muggers are totally spur of the moment, non planning, impulsive idiots. They're really not going to be tactically "sizing you up" much except to maybe compare you to a little old lady. They're going to hit quick and hope to escape just as fast. Most muggers aren't known for their mental prowess.

The armored car thief is cool, calculated, well planned, well thought out (well at least most of them). Think Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. This is the kind of guy who WILL notice your piece and what it's capabilities are. He'll then determine whether to move in or wait it out.

As OCers and CCer's we are more at risk of coming across the common street mugger, or home invader/smash'n grab type.
 

Marco

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County
imported post

This has been tossed around before.:banghead:

Please provide one incident were a citzen (non sworn person)OC'er has been robbed or was the target of a criminal.

The one on Newton Patent has been debunked.
 

OmSigDAVID

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
137
Location
, ,
imported post

Agent19 wrote:
This has been tossed around before.:banghead:

Please provide one incident were a citzen (non sworn person)OC'er has been robbed or was the target of a criminal.

The one on Newton Patent has been debunked.

Offhand, I can 't think of any; my inquiry was of a predominantly theoretical nature.

David
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

OmSigDAVID wrote:
What do u carry ? Loaded with what ?

Did stopping power enter into your choice ?

Lotsa other-thread discussion on these two points.

Back to the topic.

Yes, I imagine you're right. Given the right circumstances OC might attract a predator. I think most are looking for an easy score that doesn't risk holes in their skin.

Awareness of your surroundings will give you a heads up. Condition Yellow.

I OC primarily to promote 2A rights,secondarily for comfort and for speed of access to the weapon. I've decided the gain from that promotion outweighs what veryfewrisks there are from revealing to bad guys that I'm armed.

Despite the above-stated priority of my personal reasons, I reserve the right to change them, and do not concede against speed of access to the weapon.
 

OmSigDAVID

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
137
Location
, ,
imported post

Citizen wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
What do u carry ? Loaded with what ?

Did stopping power enter into your choice ?

Lotsa other-thread discussion on these two points.

Back to the topic.

Yes, I imagine you're right. Given the right circumstances OC might attract a predator. I think most are looking for an easy score that doesn't risk holes in their skin.

Awareness of your surroundings will give you a heads up. Condition Yellow.

I OC primarily to promote 2A rights,secondarily for comfort and for speed of access to the weapon. I've decided the gain from that promotion outweighs what veryfewrisks there are from revealing to bad guys that I'm armed.

Despite the above-stated priority of my personal reasons, I reserve the right to change them, and do not concede against speed of access to the weapon.

Thank u for your promotion of 2A rights

Have u considered the wisdom of aCC BUG ?

or is that too much weight all the time ?

David
 

FogRider

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
1,412
Location
Centennial, Colorado, USA
imported post

Could it happen? Sure. Does it happen? No. You might as well make an argument for not driving a car because the fuel tank might explode. Sure, it's technically possible, but it just doesn't happen.
 

OmSigDAVID

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
137
Location
, ,
imported post

FogRider wrote:
Could it happen? Sure. Does it happen? No. You might as well make an argument for not driving a car because the fuel tank might explode. Sure, it's technically possible, but it just doesn't happen.

I like your argument; well said !

David
 

WhiteRabbit22

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
275
Location
, ,
imported post

In my opinion, this is where proper training comes into effect. If you are able to redirect his weapon, and draw your's, you have a much better chance due to beter draw time.
 

OmSigDAVID

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
137
Location
, ,
imported post

WhiteRabbit22 wrote:
In my opinion, this is where proper training comes into effect. If you are able to redirect his weapon, and draw your's, you have a much better chance due to beter draw time.
Sounds interesting; do u have any particular training in mind ?
 

drkarrow

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
76
Location
, Minnesota, USA
imported post

My statistics below are complete made up and pulled out of my ass, just like most other statistics are.

My take is that 99% of criminals are cowards, and will avoid you if they see you are open carrying. Thus we prevent 99% of threats in this way.

But yes, there still is that 1% of criminals who could see an OC'er as an opportunity. They may even be more likely to target you when they see you with a gun.

Myself. I'm willing play the odds and prevent the 99% even though in doing so I may be very slightly increasing the odds of that 1% going after me.In the end, I'm 99% less likely to ever have to use my gun than someone who CC's. And that is why I OC.
 

Comp-tech

State Researcher
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
934
Location
, Alabama, USA
imported post

OmSigDAVID wrote:
Comp-tech wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Therefore, upon consideration, it seems to me that from a TACTICALstandpoint,CC is defensively better and more effective.

WHATAYATHINK ??
I think if CC had ANY "tactical" advantage, LEO's would most certainly make use of it......

U mean: thay don 't use BUGs ?

and detectives all OC ?
I didn't say that some do not use BUGs.....but, their PRIMARY weapon is OC.....BUG = BACK UP GUN
And no, ALL detectives don't OC....most do...at least untill they put on a jacket/coat....the point being, they don't PURPOSELY CC...they CC in relation to they way they happen to be dressed.
You ever see a detective remove his jacket/coat then proceed to conceal their weapon?
 
Top