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Thread: lies and stretching the truth

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    i am using this thread to kinda vent and get feedback. i was checking vcdl update tonight and i dcided to check into some of the anti"s websites....i know but you know how it goes what better way to fight your enemy then to know its weaknesses...and i am sick and tired of seeing the idea of the v-checks taking" only three minutes"....for those that know me face to face, know the gun shop i work for here in richmond....well i jsut wish there was someway to tell these people that it is not even close to the truth....the v-check may take 3 minutes on a person that is in good standing with the law...however there is a ten minute peirod at least where they fill out the paper work and you can get a feel for what they are...honest citizen or crook... jsut today i shot down a straw perchuse...i count at least five a week that are shot down....it angers me that these people always stretch the truth...i know thats what they are about...but in a way, does that not make them predaters??..preying on the uninformed...spreading deceit...IS THERE A WAY TO GET THE FACTS OUT THERE ABOUT V-CHECK??? STOP THE LIES?????anyways i thank you for your time and my rant...for all those that sell guns know what i am talking about....thank you guys and please let me know...

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    Obviously they are going to not give the complete time it takes to complete the process.

    As with anything if you want to make worse you will tell the truth but leave out the full details so you are notreally telling a lie. You only failed to give all the information necessary. It is still deception but one you can recover from if called on it.

    I would not stress over it that much... both sides will tell lies but those with a brain can see through it.


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    tell them to try it,and then they will know they are lieing

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    thaks leo 229 and ggd276...now that would mean real work on there behalfs

    its (and not to beat a sun bleached horse carcuss) sicking that these people can sleep....i cant belive after all the efforts of pro gun groups that lies like these can still be in circulation.... ok i love filling out the brady campaigns surveys with comments...and of course so does charles bronsen....chuck norris...dirty harry...jesus christ...to name a few have filled them out too...:celebratebut they dont get the point...still the fight goes on!!!!! thank you..thank you very much....uuuuhhhuuunn and good night...

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    ballester wrote:
    i am using this thread to kinda vent and get feedback. i was checking vcdl update tonight and i dcided to check into some of the anti"s websites....i know but you know how it goes what better way to fight your enemy then to know its weaknesses...and i am sick and tired of seeing the idea of the v-checks taking" only three minutes"....for those that know me face to face, know the gun shop i work for here in richmond....well i jsut wish there was someway to tell these people that it is not even close to the truth....the v-check may take 3 minutes on a person that is in good standing with the law...however there is a ten minute peirod at least where they fill out the paper work and you can get a feel for what they are...honest citizen or crook... jsut today i shot down a straw perchuse...i count at least five a week that are shot down....it angers me that these people always stretch the truth...i know thats what they are about...but in a way, does that not make them predaters??..preying on the uninformed...spreading deceit...IS THERE A WAY TO GET THE FACTS OUT THERE ABOUT V-CHECK??? STOP THE LIES?????anyways i thank you for your time and my rant...for all those that sell guns know what i am talking about....thank you guys and please let me know...
    As an employee of a gun shop, how long would you estimate that the average gun purchase takes from the time the buyer says "I want that one" to the time they are able to walk out the door??

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    For my wife?? Over an hour every time and sometimes two.

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    bayboy..if everything goes perfect and your last name is not smith....bout 15 mins start to finished..granted you can read and alls well with vsp...

    its not that often that i get folks that can fill out paperwork with out asking question..and thats not to fault them i rather they ask then butcher the sp-65's or 4473's)..but its rare that i get someone that can fly through it....but again that proves that we ( as in all of us gun jockeys)..dont jsut hand out guns to every smiling face.. as they percieve...

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    I have a fairly unique last name. When I fill out my forms I usually put my SSN and use my CHP as my secondary ID. It always takes at least 30 minutes for the all clear to come back once they have called it in. I have never been arrested or charged with anything so I have a completely clear record. I wish it was 3 minutes.

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    vt357 wrote:
    I have a fairly unique last name. When I fill out my forms I usually put my SSN and use my CHP as my secondary ID. It always takes at least 30 minutes for the all clear to come back once they have called it in. I have never been arrested or charged with anything so I have a completely clear record. I wish it was 3 minutes.
    OH MY GOD!!! Your SSN!!!NEVER put that down...

    Just wanted to beat everyone to that. Sorry...

    If your name was more common the SSN would help identify that the John Doe with 6 felony convictions with the same birth date as you was not actually you.

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    Regular Member Shovelhead's Avatar
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    On one website's news report, they stated that three minutes is the length of time it takes to purchase aweapon at an"Unregistered Gun Show"

    I don't know what that is either....
    Assault Weapon (N) “Any firearm whose design disturbs the sleep of progressive politicians.”.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I noticed one of the clips in the most recent VCDL-Alert about the PEG lie-in noted a change in wording.

    This time, instead of saying three minutes is the time it takes to buy a gun, the reporter said three minutes is the average amount of time it takes to do a background check. Again, I dispute the accuracy of the claim, but the analyst in me notes the wording change and the importance of said change.

    They've claimed several things in these lie-ins:
    - Three minutes is the time it took Cho to buy a gun (apparently that was proven wrong)
    - Three minutes is the average time it takes to buy a gun in America (perhaps they've seen the light here?)
    - Now, three minutes is the aveage time it takes for the background check. I might grant that IF you don't start the clock until the phone is answered and the information from your paperwork and ID transferred, or the internet connection is made.

    Reporters often get their information from fact sheets provided by the groups they're highlighting. It appears we need to be prepared with actual facts against all these nuances, just in case.

    I don't know why, but my checks usually return clear within that time frame, if you count only from the actual connection. I'm aware many, many people are not cleared within just a few minutes, and I hope to learn through research what the actual time is.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    It doesn't even take three minutes to fill out the form

    It is saddening, because the news reports their numbers like fact. It would be nice if they would do their background homework.

    But we know the supporters of the 1st hate the 2nd.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Yeah, I know. I can do both forms in about 4-5 minutes, printing clearly and bearing down so they can read the copy (some dealers get very defensive on that point), but I have to admit the first ones I did took a good 7-10 minutes. And that's if you don't have to go looking up stuff.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    How does time matter at all? If I were to ask what 2+2 is should I not accept your answer as correct just because you gave it to me so quickly?
    "Capitalism and communism stand at opposite poles. Their essential difference is this: The communist, seeing the rich man and his fine home, says: 'No man should have so much.' The capitalist, seeing the same thing, says: 'All men should have as much.'"- Phelps Adams

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    Hokie wrote:
    How does time matter at all? If I were to ask what 2+2 is should I not accept your answer as correct just because you gave it to me so quickly?
    That's a good point, and you're right. By getting hung up on the time-to-get-a-gun thing we are unwittingly arguing on the antis' terms.

    While it's important to point out that they are liars or at least exaggerators, it's also imporant to point out that having to wait any time at all to complete a voluntary transaction between two honest people for a firearm is an infringement on the right to keep arms. It forces the law-abiding to have to explain themselves to some government-operated computer system.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Hokie wrote:
    How does time matter at all? If I were to ask what 2+2 is should I not accept your answer as correct just because you gave it to me so quickly?
    That's a good point, and you're right. By getting hung up on the time-to-get-a-gun thing we are unwittingly arguing on the antis' terms.

    While it's important to point out that they are liars or at least exaggerators, it's also imporant to point out that having to wait any time at all to complete a voluntary transaction between two honest people for a firearm is an infringement on the right to keep arms. It forces the law-abiding to have to explain themselves to some government-operated computer system.
    Deceivers, I believe is the word, to exaggerate has less than evil implications. But I agree with both of you. What difference does it make if it takes 3 minutes or 30 days to buy a gun if you then go out and shoot someone with it, ala Cho? Ultimately this argument is about total gun registration because you would have to prove you did a background check if the gun you sold was later used in a crime so somewhere there has to be a record of who sold the gun and who bought it. The NICS check at a gun dealer is de facto gun registration. The only reason it is not "totally" unacceptable is because the gun can be resold privately. Gun registration is a necessary first step to gun confiscation. IF ANYONE argues against that tell them to look up Canada, the UK, Australia, and where ever total registration was enacted.

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    bayboy42 wrote:
    As an employee of a gun shop, how long would you estimate that the average gun purchase takes from the time the buyer says "I want that one" to the time they are able to walk out the door??
    In the couple of years I worked at a store this was my rule of thumb...


    15 minutes minimum. Some take the full three days.

    About 90% are in the less than an hour range.

    Of the remaining 10% about 7% take up to 3 hours. The remaining 3% can take up to and more than the max of 3 day....

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    pourshot wrote:
    bayboy42 wrote:
    As an employee of a gun shop, how long would you estimate that the average gun purchase takes from the time the buyer says "I want that one" to the time they are able to walk out the door??
    In the couple of years I worked at a store this was my rule of thumb...


    15 minutes minimum. Some take the full three days.

    About 90% are in the less than an hour range.

    Of the remaining 10% about 7% take up to 3 hours. The remaining 3% can take up to and more than the max of 3 day....
    I must have a really unusual name or come from a low-crime lineage because the NICS part usually only takes a few minutes it seems. But if you're name is "Smith" or some such I could imagine it taking longer.

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    pourshot wrote:
    In the couple of years I worked at a store this was my rule of thumb...


    15 minutes minimum. Some take the full three days.
    I must have a really unusual name or come from a low-crime lineage because the NICS part usually only takes a few minutes it seems. But if you're name is "Smith" or some such I could imagine it taking longer.
    I am talking hand them the forms to hand them the gun

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    pourshot wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    pourshot wrote:
    In the couple of years I worked at a store this was my rule of thumb...


    15 minutes minimum. Some take the full three days.
    I must have a really unusual name or come from a low-crime lineage because the NICS part usually only takes a few minutes it seems. But if you're name is "Smith" or some such I could imagine it taking longer.
    I am talking hand them the forms to hand them the gun
    That would be more true. Still, the amount of time it takes to buy a gun is irrelevant. It's what you do with it afterwards and gun registration will not help that issue at all.

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    Tess wrote:
    I noticed one of the clips in the most recent VCDL-Alert about the PEG lie-in noted a change in wording.

    This time, instead of saying three minutes is the time it takes to buy a gun, the reporter said three minutes is the average amount of time it takes to do a background check. Again, I dispute the accuracy of the claim, but the analyst in me notes the wording change and the importance of said change.

    They've claimed several things in these lie-ins:
    - Three minutes is the time it took Cho to buy a gun (apparently that was proven wrong)
    - Three minutes is the average time it takes to buy a gun in America (perhaps they've seen the light here?)
    - Now, three minutes is the aveage time it takes for the background check. I might grant that IF you don't start the clock until the phone is answered and the information from your paperwork and ID transferred, or the internet connection is made.

    Reporters often get their information from fact sheets provided by the groups they're highlighting. It appears we need to be prepared with actual facts against all these nuances, just in case.

    I don't know why, but my checks usually return clear within that time frame, if you count only from the actual connection. I'm aware many, many people are not cleared within just a few minutes, and I hope to learn through research what the actual time is.
    I heard the 'It only took Cho 3 minutes to buy his guns' BS on NPR the morning of the 16th on the way home from work, so they continue to spread this lie, and people continue to believe it.

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    Still, the amount of time it takes to buy a gun is irrelevant.
    Unless you're worried about your roid-raging ex-husband who likes to ignore his court order and stalks you.



  23. #23
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    That would be more true. Still, the amount of time it takes to buy a gun is irrelevant. It's what you do with it afterwards and gun registration will not help that issue at all.
    I concur with "the takes to buy a gun is irrelevant."



    But I am not sure what you mean by the gun registration.

  24. #24
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    Still, the amount of time it takes to buy a gun is irrelevant.
    Unless you're worried about your roid-raging ex-husband who likes to ignore his court order and stalks you.

    Of course you're right. I was thinking in terms of the PEGer's using 3 minutes as a point of evidence. In reality with computerized criminal systems it shouldn't even take that long :^).

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    pourshot wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    That would be more true. Still, the amount of time it takes to buy a gun is irrelevant. It's what you do with it afterwards and gun registration will not help that issue at all.
    I concur with "the takes to buy a gun is irrelevant."



    But I am not sure what you mean by the gun registration.
    I wrote a fairly detailed argument about this somewhere on this forum. The idea in a nutshell is that the PEGers want all gun sales, including private ones, to go through a NICS background check. This law has to be enforced which means there has to be a criminal penalty for failure, ie jail time. You would need to prove that you did a check at the time of sale so a record must be kept, in effect for ever. That's gun registration. In effect everyone becomes a federal gun dealer. Gun dealers must keep records of all their sales and when they close shop they must turn these records over to the ATF. What if you loose your record and the gun you sold is used in a crime? You go to jail.

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