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Virginia Requirement To Provide ID To Police?

D

DocDaddy

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asforme wrote:
PA-Carry wrote:
roscoe13 wrote:
Required when operating a motor vehicle or carrying a concealed handgun.
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Rosco13
Not trying to be a pain, but when would a LEO ask for your concealed carry permit? Your gun is concealed so he/she would not even know that you have a weapon. Also I know you have read throughout all these threads that you are not required to have a permit to carry open...am I right?
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If you bend over or reach for something and someone sees your CCW an LEO can ask for your CHP. I have also heard that police are trained to recognise printing and are much better at spotting a ccw than your average joe. Any LEOs feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, just something I remember reading somewhere.
Click to expand...

My roomate was CCW'in (SOB)atthe Barnes & Noble @ Lynhavenn Mall andwas just sitting there reading a magazine, he looked up and saw a pretty girl with tight jeans walk by, heproceeded to check her"closely" for her CCW... of which she was not CCW'in, then he caught the eye of a VBPD sitting at about his 4 o'clock reading a magazine as welland the VBPD asked "You have a permit for that?", my roomate said "Yes", VBPD said"Okay" and went back to reading his magazine.

Moral- If they see it, they can ask to see ID and CHP, but some just ask and go onabout theirmerry way.

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm

"The person issued a permit or in possession of a de facto permit must have the permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and must display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department upon demand by a law enforcement officer."
 
W.E.G.

W.E.G.

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Mike wrote
There is no such statute requiring folks to carry, let alone furnish ID to police, in VA, any of its localities, nor could there lawfully be such a requirement in any state. See Kolender v. Lawson, summary at http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1982/1982_81_1320/.

The VA AG has opined further that it is not obstruction of justice to refuse to identify yourslef generally to police while being detained even in a valid Terry stop. VA AG Opinion 2002-82, available at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf.
Click to expand...


Be careful there.

The AG's opinion you cite says it is not a violation of VIRGINIA CODE §18.2-460 to refuse to identify yourself.

However, some localities (Arlington County comes to mind) DO have their own municipal ordinances that DO require you to state your identity if stopped. You don't have to produce a picture ID, but you DO have to state your identity and address. The State AG's opinion does NOT address the validity of any local ordinance on this issue. It would be nice if there were a state "pre-emption" law to deal with this sort of thing. But, until such law is on the books, you need to be VERY CAREFUL about this sort of thing.

http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departmen...e/Ch17_MiscellaneousOffensesAndProvisions.pdf

Arlington County Code
§17-13(3)(c) Identification.
"It shall be unlawful for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification."
 
S

swillden

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Mike wrote:
The VA AG has opined further that it is not obstruction of justice to refuse to identify yourslef generally to police while being detained even in a valid Terry stop. VA AG Opinion 2002-82, available at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf.
Click to expand...
I know you're talking about VA, but I want to point out that many states do require you to identify yourself. I don't know of any that require you to show identification documents, but you do have to give your name and, in most of them, your address. See the Wikipedia article to see which states have "Stop and Identify" laws.
 
D

danbus

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W.E.G. wrote:
Mike wrote
There is no such statute requiring folks to carry, let alone furnish ID to police, in VA, any of its localities, nor could there lawfully be such a requirement in any state. See Kolender v. Lawson, summary at http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1982/1982_81_1320/.

The VA AG has opined further that it is not obstruction of justice to refuse to identify yourslef generally to police while being detained even in a valid Terry stop. VA AG Opinion 2002-82, available at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf.
Click to expand...


Be careful there.

The AG's opinion you cite says it is not a violation of VIRGINIA CODE §18.2-460 to refuse to identify yourself.

However, some localities (Arlington County comes to mind) DO have their own municipal ordinances that DO require you to state your identity if stopped. You don't have to produce a picture ID, but you DO have to state your identity and address. The State AG's opinion does NOT address the validity of any local ordinance on this issue. It would be nice if there were a state "pre-emption" law to deal with this sort of thing. But, until such law is on the books, you need to be VERY CAREFUL about this sort of thing.

http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/CountyBoard/CountyCode/Ch17_MiscellaneousOffensesAndProvisions.pdf

Arlington County Code
§17-13(3)(c) Identification.
"It shall be unlawful for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification."
Click to expand...
So, legal manners (such as OC)can be considered "public safety issue"?
 
C

Citizen

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W.E.G. wrote:
Mike wrote
There is no such statute requiring folks to carry, let alone furnish ID to police, in VA, any of its localities, nor could there lawfully be such a requirement in any state. See Kolender v. Lawson, summary at http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1982/1982_81_1320/.

The VA AG has opined further that it is not obstruction of justice to refuse to identify yourslef generally to police while being detained even in a valid Terry stop. VA AG Opinion 2002-82, available at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf.
Click to expand...


Be careful there.

The AG's opinion you cite says it is not a violation of VIRGINIA CODE §18.2-460 to refuse to identify yourself.

However, some localities (Arlington County comes to mind) DO have their own municipal ordinances that DO require you to state your identity if stopped. You don't have to produce a picture ID, but you DO have to state your identity and address. The State AG's opinion does NOT address the validity of any local ordinance on this issue. It would be nice if there were a state "pre-emption" law to deal with this sort of thing. But, until such law is on the books, you need to be VERY CAREFUL about this sort of thing.

http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/CountyBoard/CountyCode/Ch17_MiscellaneousOffensesAndProvisions.pdf

Arlington County Code
§17-13(3)(c) Identification.
"It shall be unlawful for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification."
Click to expand...

My off-the-cuff thought is that matters of public safety are already defined in statute--misdemeanors and felonies.

If I'm not being cited or arrested, it can't yet have risen to the point where it is a public safety concern. If he whips out his summons book or handcuffs, then I'll be happy to identify myself. Otherwise, it is completely unnecessary to identify me. He only really needs to know AFTER he's determined that I have in fact done something actionable.

In that OC is not illegal in VA and gun laws are generally pre-empted, the General Assembly has quite clearly said that these things are not themselves matters of public safety. I take that back. The General Assembly has in fact said, via "shall issue," that firearms rights ARE a matter of public safety and shall not be regulated one jot beyond their statutes.

I'll have to give some thoughtto their guaranteed next argument about how it helps them catch parole violators, see whether the person is wanted, etc. etc. etc.
 
L

LEO 229

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Citizen wrote:
My off-the-cuff thought is that matters of public safety are already defined in statute--misdemeanors and felonies.

If I'm not being cited or arrested, it can't yet have risen to the point where it is a public safety concern. If he whips out his summons book or handcuffs, then I'll be happy to identify myself. Otherwise, it is completely unnecessary to identify me. He only really needs to know AFTER he's determined that I have in fact done something actionable.

In that OC is not illegal in VA and gun laws are generally pre-empted, the General Assembly has quite clearly said that these things are not themselves matters of public safety. I take that back. The General Assembly has in fact said, via "shall issue," that firearms rights ARE a matter of public safety and shall not be regulated one jot beyond their statutes.

I'll have to give some thoughtto their guaranteed next argument about how it helps them catch parole violators, see whether the person is wanted, etc. etc. etc.
Click to expand...

In part I can agree with you.

When you talk about you would only identify yourselfif you were going to be charged. But then... you had better or you would get locked up!! So at that time... you MUST do so for your own good and not for anyone else.

How about this situation.....

You have a restraining order out on you and you are within the 500 feet of the home in violation of the order. You are committing a crime and at the moment the only way to prove it is to know who you are.

The victim had called to report you were observed nearher house as she drove away. She cannot be reached now to have her come back to identify you but you match to 100%.

So the only way to prove a crime is being broken is to know who you are.

In cases like this where you are suspected or alleged to have committed a crime... I think you should have to provide your identity. ;)
 
A

asforme

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LEO 229 wrote:
In cases like this where you are suspected or alleged to have committed a crime... I think you should have to provide your identity. ;)
Click to expand...

To prove my identity means I have to carry ID. Unless I'm buying something with a Credit Card, or driving I don't carry ID. I leave it at home or in my car. Sorry, no papers for you today, I don't have to prove my innocence in America, the burden is on you to find articulable suspicion that I'm committing a crime.

Besides if the supposed "victim" of me violating a restraining order didn't care enough to stick around and make sure I am charged that's their problem.
 
M

Mike

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W.E.G. wrote:
Mike wrote
There is no such statute requiring folks to carry, let alone furnish ID to police, in VA, any of its localities, nor could there lawfully be such a requirement in any state. See Kolender v. Lawson, summary at http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1982/1982_81_1320/.

The VA AG has opined further that it is not obstruction of justice to refuse to identify yourslef generally to police while being detained even in a valid Terry stop. VA AG Opinion 2002-82, available at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf.
Click to expand...


Be careful there.

The AG's opinion you cite says it is not a violation of VIRGINIA CODE §18.2-460 to refuse to identify yourself.

However, some localities (Arlington County comes to mind) DO have their own municipal ordinances that DO require you to state your identity if stopped. You don't have to produce a picture ID, but you DO have to state your identity and address. The State AG's opinion does NOT address the validity of any local ordinance on this issue. It would be nice if there were a state "pre-emption" law to deal with this sort of thing. But, until such law is on the books, you need to be VERY CAREFUL about this sort of thing.

http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/CountyBoard/CountyCode/Ch17_MiscellaneousOffensesAndProvisions.pdf

Arlington County Code
§17-13(3)(c) Identification.
"It shall be unlawful for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself by name and address at the request of a uniformed police officer or of a properly identified police officer not in uniform, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification."
Click to expand...
These types of ordiances are void for vagueness - and also impliedly unconstitutional under Hiibel (requiring Terry stop conditions prior to enforcement of state statute read to mean that it can be satisfied merely by stating your name).
 
L

LEO 229

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asforme wrote:
To prove my identity means I have to carry ID. Unless I'm buying something with a Credit Card, or driving I don't carry ID. I leave it at home or in my car. Sorry, no papers for you today, I don't have to prove my innocence in America, the burden is on you to find articulable suspicion that I'm committing a crime.

Besides if the supposed "victim" of me violating a restraining order didn't care enough to stick around and make sure I am charged that's their problem.
Click to expand...
Actually... providing your identity does not mean having an ID card. Providing your identity means you say who you are.

As I said.. it is just my personal opinion that it should be required in some certain situations. ;)

In regards to the caller... perhaps she was driving to get away and phone went dead. :p
 
S

swillden

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LEO 229 wrote:
asforme wrote:
To prove my identity means I have to carry ID. Unless I'm buying something with a Credit Card, or driving I don't carry ID. I leave it at home or in my car. Sorry, no papers for you today, I don't have to prove my innocence in America, the burden is on you to find articulable suspicion that I'm committing a crime.

Besides if the supposed "victim" of me violating a restraining order didn't care enough to stick around and make sure I am charged that's their problem.
Click to expand...
Actually... providing your identity does not mean having an ID card. Providing your identity means you say who you are.

As I said.. it is just my personal opinion that it should be required in some certain situations. ;)
Click to expand...
In the scenarios you described, the BG would know that giving you his real name is a bad idea, so he'd lie. Without some proof of identity, giving a name doesn't mean much.
 
L

LEO 229

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swillden wrote:
In the scenarios you described, the BG would know that giving you his real name is a bad idea, so he'd lie. Without some proof of identity, giving a name doesn't mean much.
Click to expand...
True... but there are ways of getting the correct information.

I cannot reveal those techniques. :D
 
peter nap

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LEO 229 wrote:
asforme wrote:
To prove my identity means I have to carry ID. Unless I'm buying something with a Credit Card, or driving I don't carry ID. I leave it at home or in my car. Sorry, no papers for you today, I don't have to prove my innocence in America, the burden is on you to find articulable suspicion that I'm committing a crime.

Besides if the supposed "victim" of me violating a restraining order didn't care enough to stick around and make sure I am charged that's their problem.
Click to expand...
Actually... providing your identity does not mean having an ID card. Providing your identity means you say who you are.

As I said.. it is just my personal opinion that it should be required in some certain situations. ;)

In regards to the caller... perhaps she was driving to get away and phone went dead. :p
Click to expand...


I'm not sure I agree about required ID 229. The simple fact is, I don't show or give ID unless there is some reason for it.

That said, when I am wearing a weapon, I take the chip off my shoulder and try to be a little more cooperative. I don't have to, but it saves time and trouble for all parties involved.
 
L

LEO 229

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peter nap wrote:
I'm not sure I agree about required ID 229. The simple fact is, I don't show or give ID unless there is some reason for it.

That said, when I am wearing a weapon, I take the chip off my shoulder and try to be a little more cooperative. I don't have to, but it saves time and trouble for all parties involved.
Click to expand...
As I said... violation of a protective order..... :D

And if you were armed you would also be in violation during the period of the protective order that prohibits you to be in possession of a firearm.

So if I told you... "I suspect you are in violation of a protective order" would you tell me who you were? ;)

Or would you assume the identity of another? If you do.... please pick the name of someone who is wanted. I have had this happen!!! :lol:
 
peter nap

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LEO 229 wrote:
peter nap wrote:
I'm not sure I agree about required ID 229. The simple fact is, I don't show or give ID unless there is some reason for it.

That said, when I am wearing a weapon, I take the chip off my shoulder and try to be a little more cooperative. I don't have to, but it saves time and trouble for all parties involved.
Click to expand...
As I said... violation of a protective order..... :D

And if you were armed you would also be in violation during the period of the protective order that prohibits you to be in possession of a firearm.

So if I told you... "I suspect you are in violation of a protective order" would you tell me who you were? ;)

Or would you assume the identity of another? If you do.... please pick the name of someone who is wanted. I have had this happen!!! :lol:
Click to expand...

Hmmm, If I WERE in violation of a protective order, I wouldn't be wearing a weapon, but if I were....I'd be anyone but me...and damned glad of it!:D
 
L

LEO 229

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peter nap wrote:
Hmmm, If I WERE in violation of a protective order, I wouldn't be wearing a weapon, but if I were....I'd be anyone but me...and damned glad of it!:D
Click to expand...
I bet!! :lol:
 
S

swillden

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LEO 229 wrote:
swillden wrote:
In the scenarios you described, the BG would know that giving you his real name is a bad idea, so he'd lie. Without some proof of identity, giving a name doesn't mean much.
Click to expand...
True... but there are ways of getting the correct information.

I cannot reveal those techniques. :D
Click to expand...
At most you can determine that the name and address are probably fake. If the address given is out of state, even that is going to be very difficult. If I'm a competent liar, there's no way you can catch me out quickly.

Note that I'm assuming you DON'T have the reasonable articulable suspicion required to detain, but that there's some theoretical statute that requires me to give you my name (but no ID) even without RAS. Any such statute is clearly going to allow you a very limited time to check my information, otherwise it becomes a license to harrass.

In practice, although there are lots of states with "Stop and Identify" statutes, they all require RAS, so in the circumstances you described you'd have no right to detain me or force me to answer.
 
S

swillden

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LEO 229 wrote:
Or would you assume the identity of another? If you do.... please pick the name of someone who is wanted. I have had this happen!!! :lol:
Click to expand...
:lol:

Yeah, well, there's always the fact that most criminals are stupid. Most likely that's WHY they're criminals.
 
D

doug23838

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LEO 229 wrote:
swillden wrote:
In the scenarios you described, the BG would know that giving you his real name is a bad idea, so he'd lie. Without some proof of identity, giving a name doesn't mean much.
Click to expand...
True... but there are ways of getting the correct information.

I cannot reveal those techniques. :D
Click to expand...
Here's an interesting nugget. 86% of the population can be identified by knowing only their: Gender, Date of birth, Zip code.

So if Leo229 can extract my DOB from me, make a reasonbly educated guess that I'm probably in the same zip that I live in, and if he can determine my gender without resorting to a Crocodile Dundee styled crotch grab, he can have a pretty good idea of who I am. Throw in a few neighboring zips for good measure, and he should have my mug shot on his terminal in a few mins.
 
L

LEO 229

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doug23838 wrote:
Here's an interesting nugget. 86% of the population can be identified by knowing only their: Gender, Date of birth, Zip code.

So if Leo229 can extract my DOB from me, make a reasonbly educated guess that I'm probably in the same zip that I live in, and if he can determine my gender without resorting to a Crocodile Dundee styled crotch grab, he can have a pretty good idea of who I am. Throw in a few neighboring zips for good measure, and he should have my mug shot on his terminal in a few mins.
Click to expand...
Something we should know??? :D
 
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