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Thread: Going to city council next week

  1. #1
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    So here is the statement I plan to read at next weeks city council session. I should have an appointment set to see the chief of police tomorrow. I will know when I can see her in the morning sometime. City council allows 3 minutes during open forum. If I read this out load, it is just past 3 minutes.

    Just FYI, a training officer for Spokane PD told me they get most of their training materials from the LED's and the City Attorney. There is always somebody from the City Attorneys office at the council meetings, so I feel the need to address them as well. So here is my statement to the council. Please give me any suggestions you think are needed. Any at all.



    My name is XXXXXXX and I live at XXXXXXX. Thank you council members for providing an open forum tonight. I will read a statement to best utilize my 3 minutes, and it can be found in your packet for further review. I have put together some information regarding the lawful open carrying of a firearm. I would like to see a training directive similar to these developed immediately for the Spokane Police Department to ensure that all dispatchers, operators, and police officers are fully aware of the laws in Washington regarding this issue. None of our citizens should have their rights abrogated due to an officer or dispatcher not knowing the law. I am here to urge the council and the city attorney’s office to work with Chief Kirkpatrick to implement a training directive specifically covering “open carry” and proper police conduct and response to such.

    Please see the following items:
    1. Washington Gun Rights pamphlet published by my organization
    2. Court case opinion from State vs. Casad
    3. Training bulletins from the following cities in Washington
      1. Federal Way
      2. Olympia
      3. Bellevue
      4. King County
      5. Everett
      6. Kent

    As you will no doubt see, there are many cities in Washington who have taken steps to ensure that their departments are protecting the citizens from unlawful Terry stops and violations of their constitutional rights. The Federal Way training bulletin was created with Chief Kirkpatrick while she was still there, so I feel confidant she will know the details of this issue.

    I have personally had conversations with multiple officers about the legality of open carry. On several occasions I have been told “it is illegal” or “if you have a concealed pistol license, you must conceal it”, neither of which are correct. I have also been told “You may end up getting arrested, so you should keep it concealed”, and several times I have heard “I don’t know if it is legal or not”.

    After hearing of another incident recently of a business owner calling the police and receiving false information from the police department, I am compelled to address this issue here tonight.

    RCW 9.41.270 states in part:

    It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display….any firearm… in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    There is a big difference between something that "causes" alarm, and something that "warrants" alarm. See the provided opinion, State vs. Casad or State vs. Spencer.

    Utilizing a training bulletin to review the law with officers would certainly help eliminate some of the confusion. The increased safety for Spokanes citizens is important to me and my family, and as a law abiding citizen, I do not want to ever see the bad end of an officer responding to "a man with a gun" call.

    In closing, without the proper training and review of these laws and the associated case law provided, this is a huge gray area that puts citizens at risk in this city everyday. No responsible law abiding citizen deserves that, nor can the city afford a potential lawsuit being filed due to improper conduct of its officers or violations of civil and constitutional rights. I urge the city and the police department to implement a training directive regarding “open carry” immediately.

    Thank you for your time.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    There is a big difference between something that "causes" alarm and something that "warrants alarm for the safety of others

    That part of the RCW has nothing to do with the way someone feels or reacts; it’s about safety and safe gun handling. If you abbreviate the sentence you are perpetuating the myth that the RCW is enforceable if someone expresses alarm at the mere sight of your handgun, we don’t want that.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    I'm working on the issue on the backend and may have results before the City Council meeting.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong Lonnie, but didn't you say that there was no King County bulletin and that it was just a draft that was never issued?...
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    It was issued in June last year to officers. This was confirmed through a confidential source.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    There is a big difference between something that "causes" alarm and something that "warrants alarm for the safety of others

    That part of the RCW has nothing to do with the way someone feels or reacts; it’s about safety and safe gun handling. If you abbreviate the sentence you are perpetuating the myth that the RCW is enforceable if someone expresses alarm at the mere sight of your handgun, we don’t want that.
    Point well taken. I will make sure to clarify that.

    Lonnie, thanks for working on it from your end too. keep us updated.

    I called yesterday to request a meeting with the chief. Her secretary asked what my meeting would be about, and I told her. She said the chief was not in the office, so she would get with her today and call me back with an appointment time.

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    Proofread version recieved from underthebrige:


    Thank you sir!





    My name is XXXXXXX and I live at XXXXXXX. Thank you Mayor and Council Members for providing an open forum tonight. I will read a statement to best utilize my three minutes. It can be found in your packet for further review. I have included some information regarding the lawful open carry of a firearm.

    I would like to see a training directive similar to these developed immediately for the Spokane Police Department to ensure that all dispatchers, call receivers, and police officers are fully aware of the laws in Washington regarding this issue. Our citizens should not have their rights infringed due to an officer or dispatcher not knowing the law. I am here to urge the council and the city attorney’s office to work with Chief Kirkpatrick to implement a training directive specifically covering “open carry” and proper police conduct and response to such.

    Please see the following items:
    • Washington Gun Rights pamphlet published by my organization
    • Court case opinion from State vs. Casad
    • Training bulletins from the following Law Enforcement agencies:
      1. Federal Way Police
      2. Olympia Police
      3. Bellevue Police
      4. King County Sheriff
      5. Everett Police
      6. Kent Police
      7. Seattle Police Department
    Many Washington agencies have taken steps to both protect their citizens from unlawful Terry stops which violate their civil rights as well as their departments from any legal action that might follow such violation. The Federal Way training bulletin was created with Chief Kirkpatrick while she was still there, so I feel confidant she will know the details of this issue.

    I have had conversations with multiple officers about the legality of open carry. On several occasions I have been told “it is illegal” or “if you have a concealed pistol license, you must conceal it;” neither of which are correct. I have also been told, “You may end up getting arrested, so you should keep it concealed.” Several times I have heard “I don’t know if it is legal or not.”

    After hearing of recent incident where a business owner calling the police and was given false information from the police department, I am compelled to address this issue tonight.

    RCW 9.41.270 states in part:

    It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display….any firearm… in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    There is a big difference between something that "causes" alarm and something that "warrants" alarm for the safety of other persons. See the provided opinion, State vs. Casad or State vs. Spencer.

    Utilizing a training bulletin to review the law with officers would certainly help eliminate some of the confusion. The increased safety for Spokane’s citizens is important to me and my family. As a law abiding citizen, I do not want to ever see a bad outcome from an officer responding to a "man with a gun" call.

    Without the proper training and review of these laws and the associated case law provided, this huge gray area puts citizens at risk in this city everyday. No responsible law-abiding citizen deserves that. Nor can the city afford a potential lawsuit being filed due to improper conduct of its officers for violations of civil and constitutional rights. I urge the city and the police department to implement a training directive regarding “open carry of a firearm” immediately.

    Thank you for your time.

  8. #8
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    Looks good to me! Good luck with this one. Looks like you can add Seattle to the list too.

    Sometimes when I am trying to really make point with an agency, I'll pull out stuff from Seattle or King County and say "Larger, more prestegious agencies" have done this or that, but I have to be pretty pissed to get that far. Polite is good right now!:P

    Good luck with your endeavor.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Add Seattle Police to that list!

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    By the time I get to Spokane all the hard work will be done!

    Way to go guys!

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    BobCav wrote:
    By the time I get to Spokane all the hard work will be done!

    Way to go guys!
    We're trying Bob... for some reason, in the past year, OCDO here in WA has gotten really strong.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    BobCav wrote:
    By the time I get to Spokane all the hard work will be done!

    Way to go guys!
    I am working hard to get OC out and about more and recognized in spokane.

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    BobCav, I have said before Spokane is a good place to make a stand. Surf has been doing some good work. I have been in touch with Spokane city att. Mike Piccolo about removing wording in the municipal code that is inconsistant with RCW 9.41.290. Simply put some of the wording gives the mayor the authority to confiscate firearms in a civil "emergency". Just when we may need them the most. One of my goals is to get an ordinance passed to provide that every household be armed. Or at least be capable of being armed.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Got the word from Spokane PD's IAD sargeant:

    Hi Mr. Wilson,

    I just heard back from our training Sgt. He said he thought the
    training bulletin was excellent. I expect we will be receiving is as a dept update soon. Thanks again.

    ---

    This is referencing the Seattle PD bulletin (which is a gift that keeps on giving btw).
    [/code]

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    Wow. Sounds promising. I am still planning on going in to the council next week. Will definitely add Seattle to the list. That's a big one.

    At least until I actually see a Spokane PD bulletin or directive.

    Gotta strike while the iron is hot. I have not gotten a call from the Chiefs secretary about that appointment yet either.

    Maybe I should go to her office and hand deliver a copy of the packet, change the letter some to specifically address her, and make sure she knows I will be addressing the city council next week.

    What do you think? I need good strategy!!!


    Lonnie Wilson wrote: [quote]Got the word from Spokane PD's IAD sargeant:

    Hi Mr. Wilson,

    I just heard back from our training Sgt. He said he thought the
    training bulletin was excellent. I expect we will be receiving is as a dept update soon. Thanks again.

    ---

    This is referencing the Seattle PD bulletin (which is a gift that keeps on giving btw).
    [code]

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    Um, just to make sure I am not missing anything, I can OC into a city council meeting right? There is nothing in RCW 9.41.300 that prohibits it. If there are no signs posted at city hall, then I am good to go don't ya think?

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    You should be fine, and any signs should be illegal.

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    10.10.050 Municipal Public Assembly Facilities
    A. No person shall bring into any City public assembly facility any cans, bottles, alcoholic beverages, controlled substances, guns, knives or other such devices which are weapons or apparently capable of use as weapons.
    Yeah, you should be good and I agree that 10.10.050 is preempted and repealed by 9.41.290, but you are there to accomplish something and make your point on the training bulletin. Rome wasn't built in a day. You're taking an excellent opportunity, with support from within the PD. The council will get a chance to see who you are; itsounds like it will be a slam-dunk.

    I would suggest forgoing this issue for the moment and taking it on when the training bulletin is issued. I would really hate to see you not be able to deliver your comments or leave anyone with a bad impression as you are escorted out (right or wrong). You can be right to the nth degree, but where do you want to be at the end of the day?

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    Just an FYI for everyone. The city council meeting begins at 6 pm tonight, (Monday). Open forum begins after all city business is concluded. Probably around 7 I would guess. Hope to see you there to stand up for the 2nd amendment and attempt to keep the Spokane Police Department in line with the letter of the law.

    I will be wearing an empty holster to this one, at least until a later time.

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    I thought the general consensus around OCDO (at least in the WA forum) was to pursue these matters on the D.L. (down-low) with the department training divisions, and not to involve the legislative bodies. Why are you addressing the City Council when it seems the problem is about to be solved by the training division?

  21. #21
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    Spokane is just a little bit corrupt and a whole lot of backwards, we are just trying to nip it in the bud.

    Following Edit was added

    Wish I could make it surf, but I have a final tomorrow and I am far to broke to aford the half tank of gas for a round trip atthis stage of the game.

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    deanf wrote:
    I thought the general consensus around OCDO (at least in the WA forum) was to pursue these matters on the D.L. (down-low) with the department training divisions, and not to involve the legislative bodies. Why are you addressing the City Council when it seems the problem is about to be solved by the training division?
    Sounds good to me. Ooops, wait a minute, oh yeah. Spokane does not have a training division. Officers recieve their training materials either from the BLEA's or the city attorney's office.

    I have spoken with several people who confirmed this. People have been getting the run-around for a long time here in Spokane about this.

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    Well, that was fun!!! I read my statement, adding emphasis when needed. After my statement, Council Woman Mclaughlin (Spokane Police Advisory Committee) asked if i had a copy of the packet for the chief, I told her I gave one to the clerk and she would deliver it. I added that I tried to call the chief about an appointment to discuss the matter and never got a call back.

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    That was it? Was there no open discussion other than that one question?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    That was it? Was there no open discussion other than that one question?
    Nope. That was it. Council usually never does have open discussion. The session went on almost 4 hours, and open forum was last. But it gives me something to follow up on, and I can contact council members individually during the week. This was primarily just to get it into the public record.

    I am still planning on getting with the chief about it too.

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