Allowing Police to Disarm You

imported post

I was reading about this in the Virginia forums and I am curious about it here in Utah.

If you are OCing on the street, the officer cannot disarm you unless you are suspected of breaking a law, correct? Same conditions required for him to detain or arrest you? I would assume that (as long as you are not actually comitting a crime) you could ask for a "specific and articulatable" reason for the detention/disarmament/arrest BEFORE you comply with the request?

If you get pulled over for speeding, you are breaking a law so can the officer legally disarm you in this case? Seems to me like this is one of the only "regular" circumstances where his request, though annoying and unnecessary, would be legal.

imported post

They can request your CCW permit, and if you don't have one can check to see your gun follows the state laws (utah unloaded). I Know the cop won't allow YOU to clear the firearm for him, so he would be taking your gun and detaining you for this. After this you should be instantly free to be on your way.

imported post

My understanding is that to detain you, the officer has to have a reasonable articulable suspicion that you have committed, are committing or are about to commit a crime. If he caught you speeding then he knows you committed a crime (albeit an infraction), and he can stop you.

If he has a reasonable suspicion that you are "armed and dangerous", then he can disarm you, and even pat you down to remove any other weapons. If you're openly carrying a weapon, then he can easily conclude that you're armed and may be a danger to himself or someone else.

If he doesn't have some reason to believe you've committed a crime (i.e. an encounter on the street, in Wal-mart, etc.), then he has no right to disarm you. HOWEVER, Utah law prohibits loaded carry without a permit (76-10-505). So the argument is that a police officer who sees your weapon has a reasonable belief that you may be violating this statute and may therefore detain you to investigate. If you're a CFP holder and you're detained, you're required to inform the officer that you have a CFP (can't find the statute for that one -- anyone?). If you're not a CFP holder, then the officer will have to examine your weapon to verify that it's unloaded. In either case, since you're detained, he can disarm you.

I think the idea that just because he can see your gun he has reasonable belief that you may be committing a crime is bogus, but that's how it was explained to me.

imported post

the CFP exemption is UCA 76-10-523. This exempts CFP holders from UCA 76-10-504, 1(a) and 1(b) (carrying in public places and carrying concealed) -- and from 76-10-505 (carrying loaded in a vehicle or on the street). CFP holders are also exempt from restrictions on carrying in School Zones.

I kind of figured about the CFP if loaded approach that cops might take. I do have a permit so I am not worried, but it can be a pain. I have an XD so if I didn't have a permit I could just point out the loaded chamber indicator being up or down! (if your holster offers a view of the indicator, that is)

imported post

ScottyT wrote:

the CFP exemption is UCA 76-10-523. This exempts CFP holders from UCA 76-10-504, 1(a) and 1(b) (carrying in public places and carrying concealed) -- and from 76-10-505 (carrying loaded in a vehicle or on the street). CFP holders are also exempt from restrictions on carrying in School Zones.

I kind of figured about the CFP if loaded approach that cops might take. I do have a permit so I am not worried, but it can be a pain. I have an XD so if I didn't have a permit I could just point out the loaded chamber indicator being up or down! (if your holster offers a view of the indicator, that is)

Click to expand...

Doubt that would fly with a cop, but good idea :dude:

imported post

swillden wrote:

If you're a CFP holder and you're detained, you're required to inform the officer that you have a CFP (can't find the statute for that one -- anyone?).

Click to expand...

http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code/r722/r722-300.htm#T13

R722-300-12. Requirement to Notify Peace Officer When Stopped.

When a concealed firearm permit holder or certificate of qualification holder is stopped for questioning by a peace officer based on reasonable suspicion in accordance with Section 77-7-15 and the holder has a concealed firearm in his/her possession, the holder shall immediately advise the peace officer that he/she is a lawful holder and has a concealed firearm in his/her possession.

Click to expand...

I put concealed in bold because the way I read it, if you open carry, you need not inform the officer of your concealed firearm permit. After all, it is not concealed. However, if the weapon is loaded, or in a school zone, this is where you would want to produce a permit.

imported post

ScottyT wrote:

the CFP exemption is UCA 76-10-523. This exempts CFP holders from UCA 76-10-504, 1(a) and 1(b) (carrying in public places and carrying concealed) -- and from 76-10-505 (carrying loaded in a vehicle or on the street). CFP holders are also exempt from restrictions on carrying in School Zones.

Click to expand...

The statute I couldn't find was the one requiring notification.

SGT Jensen found it for me. Apparently I couldn't find it in the code because it's not in the code, it's a rule.

imported post

swillden wrote:

ScottyT wrote:

the CFP exemption is UCA 76-10-523. This exempts CFP holders from UCA 76-10-504, 1(a) and 1(b) (carrying in public places and carrying concealed) -- and from 76-10-505 (carrying loaded in a vehicle or on the street). CFP holders are also exempt from restrictions on carrying in School Zones.

Click to expand...

The statute I couldn't find was the one requiring notification.

SGT Jensen found it for me. Apparently I couldn't find it in the code because it's not in the code, it's a rule.

Click to expand...

Thats why lawyers have jobs, Laws/Rules/Codes/Etc are found all over the place and it takes a degree just to find them all.

imported post

xmirage2kx wrote:

Thats why lawyers have jobs, Laws/Rules/Codes/Etc are found all over the place and it takes a degree just to find them all.

Click to expand...

Yep. Kinda makes the notion of "rule of law" pretty meaningless if it's that hard to find out what the law is, doesn't it?

imported post

xmirage2kx wrote:

They can request your CCW permit, and if you don't have one can check to see your gun follows the state laws (utah unloaded). I Know the cop won't allow YOU to clear the firearm for him, so he would be taking your gun and detaining you for this. After this you should be instantly free to be on your way.

Click to expand...

I expect in most cases the officer will want to clear a firearm himself. But not all. Read my report from last year about OC at the Sandy Indepedence Day celebrations. First and only time I had an "official" encounter while OCing in Utah. I offered up my permit and after a moment of discussion also told the nice Sergeant that the firearm was ALSO legally unloaded. He asked if we could verify that and we walked to where we might find a reasonable place to show an empty chamber.

Every indication was that I was going to unholster and show off an empty chamber. But we didn't find a reasonable locatoin right away so I reiterated again that my permit allowed loaded OC and I was happy to discuss it with his Lt if he wanted me to do that. So we both walked over to the command RV and I had a nice discussion with the Lt and a couple of other officers. After a few minutes more pressing business came up and I left still OCing. At no time did my gun ever leave its holster. Nor did the officers ever ask to disarm me or ask me to disarm.

But I would not expect that experience to be too typical.

I will also point out that that police officers are not necessarily experts at all types of guns, though some including the weapons' trainers may be very familiar with a wide range of firearms. I've personally seen one officer have some difficultly finding the mag release on a 1911. Certainly various retention holsters may be unfamiliar to officers. So in the interest of safety for ALL involved, one might consider being prepared to offer some kindly verbal assistance on how to remove the firearm from the holster and how to properly unload it if an officer does make a request or give an order to allow him to disarm you. An ND presents a REAL and immediate hazzard to ALL in the area and the least dangerous place to be when someone unfamiliar with a particular model is trying to unload it (directly behind him) is the one place the officer is not likely to let you be. So really, in everyone's best interest to see the firearm safely unloaded with as little fuss and struggling as necessary.

imported post

swillden wrote:

xYep. Kinda makes the notion of "rule of law" pretty meaningless if it's that hard to find out what the law is, doesn't it?

Click to expand...

So far as I know, this rule is NOT a law and there is no criminal penalty for failure to inform. As I understand it, the worst that can be done is to revoke your permit for violation of the rule.

Still, a good idea to abide the rule. But I thought I'd point out the slight difference between this rule and law with criminal penalties.

Charles

imported post

xmirage2kx wrote:

swillden wrote:

ScottyT wrote:

the CFP exemption is UCA 76-10-523. This exempts CFP holders from UCA 76-10-504, 1(a) and 1(b) (carrying in public places and carrying concealed) -- and from 76-10-505 (carrying loaded in a vehicle or on the street). CFP holders are also exempt from restrictions on carrying in School Zones.

Click to expand...

The statute I couldn't find was the one requiring notification.

SGT Jensen found it for me. Apparently I couldn't find it in the code because it's not in the code, it's a rule.

Click to expand...

Thats why lawyers have jobs, Laws/Rules/Codes/Etc are found all over the place and it takes a degree just to find them all.

Click to expand...

"CFP holders are also exempt from restrictions on carrying in School Zones."

Title 76-10-505.5

76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
(1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
(2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
(b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
(3) This section does not apply if:
(a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
(b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
(c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
(d) the possession is:
(i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
(ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
(iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
(4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.

Amended by Chapter 203, 2003 General Session
Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_0C035.ZIP 2,551 Bytes



[line]
Sections in this Chapter|Chapters in this Title|All Titles|Legislative Home Page

Last revised: Friday, February 08, 2008

imported post

UTOC-45-44 wrote:

xmirage2kx wrote:

swillden wrote:

ScottyT wrote:

the CFP exemption is UCA 76-10-523. This exempts CFP holders from UCA 76-10-504, 1(a) and 1(b) (carrying in public places and carrying concealed) -- and from 76-10-505 (carrying loaded in a vehicle or on the street). CFP holders are also exempt from restrictions on carrying in School Zones.

Click to expand...

The statute I couldn't find was the one requiring notification.

SGT Jensen found it for me. Apparently I couldn't find it in the code because it's not in the code, it's a rule.

Click to expand...

Thats why lawyers have jobs, Laws/Rules/Codes/Etc are found all over the place and it takes a degree just to find them all.

Click to expand...

"CFP holders are also exempt from restrictions on carrying in School Zones."

Title 76-10-505.5

Click to expand...

Thanks, TJ, but that wasn't what I was looking for. I knew where that one was :lol:

imported post

swillden wrote:

<snip>
I think the idea that just because he can see your gun he has reasonable belief that you may be committing a crime is bogus, but that's how it was explained to me.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with this sentiment.

Might a police officer believe you were committing the criminal act of...
Give up the fight for something that borders on reasonable and you'll soon find yourself with nothing to fight for, because to someone, everything is unreasonable.

Carrying a gun is no more articulable suspicion of a gun-crime about to occur than eating dinner is articulable suspicion you plan to stab your date with your steak knife.