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Thread: Pembroke Mall Now Posted!!!!!!

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    Pembroke Mall Has now posted no firearms signs at all of the mall entrances. 04-22-08. This sucks because this is one of the only malls I would go to. To my knowledge there are not signs on any of the department store entrances. If I go I will have to go throught the Kelly's Tavern doors. They have not posted them on there!!!

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    If I were you, I wouldn't be posting this in a public forum. You should remove it incase you are stopped and you say you didn't know guns weren't allowed. Now if they found this after you told them that, you could be charged with criminal trespass. Just an FYI...

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    xd.40 wrote:
    If I were you, I wouldn't be posting this in a public forum. You should remove it incase you are stopped and you say you didn't know guns weren't allowed. Now if they found this after you told them that, you could be charged with criminal trespass. Just an FYI...
    Just a false FYI......please cite the portion of the code that you are using to make the claim that by knowingly bypassing the signs he could be charged with criminal trespass.

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    The policy recently changed, right? And with no prior notice to you? Why shouldn't you assume the policy didn't change again?

    If a door isn't posted, and you enter through that door, might it be possible the policy has been rescinded, and they once again allow firearms?

    Or should you assume that the policy is still the same even though it changed abruptly before? Or should you assume they forgot to post that door and check the others?

    All I'm saying is that unless you were "caught" trespassing the day of the post, reasonable doubt suggests that since the previous policy change happened abruptly without notice, a person entering through an un-posted door might reasonably conclude the policy changed again.

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    bayboy42 wrote:
    xd.40 wrote:
    If I were you, I wouldn't be posting this in a public forum. You should remove it incase you are stopped and you say you didn't know guns weren't allowed. Now if they found this after you told them that, you could be charged with criminal trespass. Just an FYI...
    Just a false FYI......please cite the portion of the code that you are using to make the claim that by knowingly bypassing the signs he could be charged with criminal trespass.
    If you KNOWINGLY break the law, and they can prove it, you can be charged. It's just as if they asked you to leave once before and you decided to carry there anyways. His admission on here is proof that he KNEW he wasn't allowed. All I'm saying is that he COULD get charged by an over zealous prosecutor or out of hand cop...

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    xd.40 wrote:
    bayboy42 wrote:
    xd.40 wrote:
    If I were you, I wouldn't be posting this in a public forum. You should remove it incase you are stopped and you say you didn't know guns weren't allowed. Now if they found this after you told them that, you could be charged with criminal trespass. Just an FYI...
    Just a false FYI......please cite the portion of the code that you are using to make the claim that by knowingly bypassing the signs he could be charged with criminal trespass.
    If you KNOWINGLY break the law, and they can prove it, you can be charged. It's just as if they asked you to leave once before and you decided to carry there anyways. His admission on here is proof that he KNEW he wasn't allowed. All I'm saying is that he COULD get charged by an over zealous prosecutor or out of hand cop...
    But there isn't a law that says you can't carry in Pembroke mall.......remember...these signs hold no legal standing in VA........

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    bayboy42 wrote:
    xd.40 wrote:
    bayboy42 wrote:
    xd.40 wrote:
    If I were you, I wouldn't be posting this in a public forum. You should remove it incase you are stopped and you say you didn't know guns weren't allowed. Now if they found this after you told them that, you could be charged with criminal trespass. Just an FYI...
    Just a false FYI......please cite the portion of the code that you are using to make the claim that by knowingly bypassing the signs he could be charged with criminal trespass.
    If you KNOWINGLY break the law, and they can prove it, you can be charged. It's just as if they asked you to leave once before and you decided to carry there anyways. His admission on here is proof that he KNEW he wasn't allowed. All I'm saying is that he COULD get charged by an over zealous prosecutor or out of hand cop...
    But there isn't a law that says you can't carry in Pembroke mall.......remember...these signs hold no legal standing in VA........
    I see them as the same thing as someone asking you to leave. If you refuse (i.e. you see the sign but go in anyways), you get charged with criminal trespass. Right? Or am I missing something? Maybe it's just my interpretation...? Better same than sorry anyways, right?

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    Now seriously, is there a real reson to step foot into Pem-brokendown mall besides buying some tools from Sears or having some run of the mill bar food at Kelly's? They refurbished the place so much, it still says Annabelle's on the stained glass wall on the second floor...

    ...I did frequent Kelly's when I lived in Va Beach, Beer's cold, food's decent, but it's not anything special...

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    bayboy42 wrote:
    xd.40 wrote:
    If I were you, I wouldn't be posting this in a public forum. You should remove it incase you are stopped and you say you didn't know guns weren't allowed. Now if they found this after you told them that, you could be charged with criminal trespass. Just an FYI...
    Just a false FYI......please cite the portion of the code that you are using to make the claim that by knowingly bypassing the signs he could be charged with criminal trespass.
    I have spoke on this time and time again but I guess either you did not see it or refuse to believe it. :?

    YouCAN be charged with trespassing if yougo on the property of another after they have informed you they prohibit firearms.

    Here is something that may help you understand that even the state understand and respect the wishes of private property owners....

    Review the info below. You willsee in the CC code thathaving a CC permit does not grant you the authority to take a weapon onto the property of another if they have prohibited it. Private property beingcommercial and residential.


    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.


    [line]

    The code you want in the manner that would make you "happy" does not exist.

    There is no code that says "Any person that carries a firearm onto the property of another where the property has been posted"No Firearms Allowed" shall be guilty of trespassing."

    Trespassing is more than just having been told not to come back or seeing a sign that has the words "No trespassing"

    Trespassing is when you are someplace you should not be... and weretold or knewyou were not welcome ahead of time.

    In this case... there are signs displayed saying you are not welcome if you have a gun.

    Do you really think it is OK to go on the property anywayand they have to tell you again that you are not welcome? You already know you are not welcome!!

    Why is this so difficult to understand???




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    bayboy42 wrote:
    But there isn't a law that says you can't carry in Pembroke mall.......remember...these signs hold no legal standing in VA........
    WRONG!!!!

    The sign is your notice! The sign is evidence that you were warned.

    View it the same as a conditional "No trespassing" sign.

    I have seen signs on wooded property that say "No Hunting".... so does this mean you can enter the woods anyway and go hunting on the property of another until someone comes totell you to stop?

    NO!! The difference is this...

    "No Trespassing" means you cannot enter the woods at all.

    "No Hunting" means may feel free to take a walk in the woods but you are not allowed to hunt.



    Do you get it yet!!??




    Review this to help you understand how notice can be given.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    bayboy42 wrote:
    But there isn't a law that says you can't carry in Pembroke mall.......remember...these signs hold no legal standing in VA........

    WRONG!!!!

    The sign is your notice! The sign is evidence that you were warned.

    View it the same as a conditional "No trespassing" sign.

    I have seen signs on wooded property that say "No Hunting".... so does this mean you can enter the woods anyway and go hunting on the property of another until soemone comes totell you to stop?

    NO!! The difference is this...

    "No Trespassing" means you cannot enter the woods at all.

    "No Hunting" means may feel free to take a walk in the woods but you are not allowed to hunt.



    Do you get it yet!!??



    I wasn't going to respond but since 229 already hit it dead on, I will. Just because you go around a sign doesn't mean you didn't see it. YOU DID!
    Sure, you can lie about it but if you lie to the cop and get caught..Giving false information to an officer,,,,,
    If you lie about it to the Judge, perjury!

    The Mall can post against weapons if they want to. I don't like it but I can refuse to go there.

    If you go in an entrance without a sign and don't lie about it...Trespassing.

    For the life of me, I don't understand why people feel they have the RIGHT to do as they please on private property. Your tax dollars didn't pay for it, the owner did.

    If you just feel like you can't go to a mall without your gun, go to one without a gun policy. Let them know that's why your there, tell the other one why your not there.

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    peter nap wrote:
    I wasn't going to respond but since 229 already hit it dead on, I will. Just because you go around a sign doesn't mean you didn't see it. YOU DID!
    Sure, you can lie about it but if you lie to the cop and get caught..Giving false information to an officer,,,,,
    If you lie about it to the Judge, perjury!

    The Mall can post against weapons if they want to. I don't like it but I can refuse to go there.

    If you go in an entrance without a sign and don't lie about it...Trespassing.
    And saying "I never saw the sign" will get you about as far as "I did not see the speed limit changed to 35 MHP" in court.

    The sign is there for a reason. It does not mean... "Come on in anyway and we will ask you to leave again once you get inside and see you."

    The sign is up for a reason and can be enforced.





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    I thought legal trepassnotice in Virginia had to be either verbal from a LEO or in writing to that individual?

    Since the sign isjust a notice and then bears no legal weight hanging on the door, how can it haveany legal weight then in court?

    Legally, it seems to me to be more of a statement of control causing a false sense of security for the unwitting customers and covering the ownersfor liabilitybystating that "We don't like guns here. If you are found carrying one here, you will be asked to leave. Failing that you aretrespassing."

    In the current socially acceptable practic of "dumbing down" everything to the lowest possible level, we are encouraging social and civil laziness and irresponsibility. To the educated, it is less of a trepass notice and more of an admission that they are either anti-gun or stupid. Either way not deserving of my business.



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    LEO 229 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    I wasn't going to respond but since 229 already hit it dead on, I will. Just because you go around a sign doesn't mean you didn't see it. YOU DID!
    Sure, you can lie about it but if you lie to the cop and get caught..Giving false information to an officer,,,,,
    If you lie about it to the Judge, perjury!

    The Mall can post against weapons if they want to. I don't like it but I can refuse to go there.

    If you go in an entrance without a sign and don't lie about it...Trespassing.
    And saying "I never saw the sign" will get you about as far as "I did not see the speed limit changed to 35 MHP" in court.

    The sign is there for a reason. It does not mean... "Come on in anyway and we will ask you to leave again once you get inside and see you."

    The sign is up for a reason and can be enforced.


    That really depends on the Judge. I've seen as many that will dismiss if you said you didn't see it, as would convict.

    The real issue is that we are not supposed to be criminals here. There are plenty of sites where you can discuss the best ways to lie, cheat or steal.

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    BobCav wrote:
    I thought legal trepassnotice in Virginia had to be either verbal from a LEO or in writing to that individual?

    Since the sign isjust a notice and then bears no legal weight hanging on the door, how can it haveany legal weight then in court?

    Legally, it seems to me to be more of a statement of control causing a false sense of security for the unwitting customers and covering the ownersfor liabilitybystating that "We don't like guns here. If you are found carrying one here, you will be asked to leave. Failing that you aretrespassing."

    In the current socially acceptable practic of "dumbing down" everything to the lowest possible level, we are encouraging social and civil laziness and irresponsibility. To the educated, it is less of a trepass notice and more of an admission that they are either anti-gun or stupid. Either way not deserving of my business.

    Either in writing or verbally!
    The sign is written and anyone having the authority to throw you out, can do a verbal.

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    BobCav wrote:
    I thought legal trepassnotice in Virginia had to be either verbal from a LEO or in writing to that individual?

    Since the sign isjust a notice and then bears no legal weight hanging on the door, how can it haveany legal weight then in court?

    Legally, it seems to me to be more of a statement of control causing a false sense of security for the unwitting customers and covering the ownersfor liabilitybystating that "We don't like guns here. If you are found carrying one here, you will be asked to leave. Failing that you aretrespassing."

    In the current socially acceptable practic of "dumbing down" everything to the lowest possible level, we are encouraging social and civil laziness and irresponsibility. To the educated, it is less of a trepass notice and more of an admission that they are either anti-gun or stupid. Either way not deserving of my business.
    Sorry Bob.... You have it wrong.

    If I post "No Hunting" on my property and you go hunting on my property having walked past signs at the gate you entered..... are you not trespassing?

    Or do you get to leave with no punishment even if you were hunting in the very woods where my family was playing and camping?

    Obviously Itake a chance inmy woods and any criminal could still go on my property and do some target shooting. But I clearly am trying to avoid people on the property with guns that could cause us harm.

    You clearly would be violating my wishes....

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    peter nap wrote:
    That really depends on the Judge. I've seen as many that will dismiss if you said you didn't see it, as would convict.

    The real issue is that we are not supposed to be criminals here. There are plenty of sites where you can discuss the best ways to lie, cheat or steal.
    Not the judges I have stood before. Many do not go for that line.

    The signs does not stop criminals just like speed limit signs do not stop speeders. But it does allow for punishment for those who choose to not obey the sign.

    If the mall wants to put up signs to help bring in shoppers so they feel "safe" that is their business. Nobody has a right to protest that it will not help stop or keep out criminals.

    A business or property owner has the right to do what they feel is best for their property. If you do not like it... do not visit.

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    Hmmm, I'm not so sure and will have to look that one up. I'm pretty sure that"in writing" means written to that specific individual, not a generic posted sign.

    The reason I recall that is because once upon a time I was the Military Housing Liaison for the Navy housing area on Mary's Way in Woodbridge. Being 801 housing (leased by the govt - NOT section 8 housing!) and out in town, we could not provide separate military services for our residents and had to rely on civil fire, police, ect.

    As such when we had a trepassing situation, a letter from the CO wasn't enough, we had to do civil evictions (what a PITA!) and trespass notices and our legal dept worked with PWC to ensure we had it right.

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    Ok, found it. Did this change? Because we always had to do it in writing to the individual and I though that no firearms signs did not have the weight of law in Virginia?



    § 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.

    (Code 1950, § 18.1-173; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1982, c. 169; 1987, cc. 625, 705; 1991, c. 534; 1998, cc. 569, 684.)

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    "or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign "

    There you go Bob.... "Forbidden" being the keyword.



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    The no firearms signs have no weight Bob, except to notify the person that he is not allowed in with a firearm.

    If he ignores the sign, he can be charged with trespassing because he has been told to NOT come in if he has a gun.

    I have a similar problem on the farm. Virginia law allows dog hunters to enter posted property to retrieve their dogs.

    They cannot take a gun or vehicle. They use that law as an excuse to hunt posted property.

    I get convictions based on game camera pictures of them with a gun passing the NO TRESPASSING signs.

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    Instead of making a stand by ignoring the sign (and martyring yourself and your rights), if Pembroke Mall is such an important place to go, why not attempt toeducate the management? It could fall on deaf ears, but it could also be a spark that brings them to change their policy, or at least amend it.

    Give the facts, explain some logic, and ask them to base their policy on current VA law. What many of them want is already illegal... and what they fear will not be stopped by a piece of laminated cardstock...

    In the past, we have had people here who have brought about change in situations like this by having the local management educated by upper managment... WalMart is one that I know of... One of our members got an apology from a local manager after getting the higher level of management involved.

    Being hard-arses just angers the antis (and those on the fence) to more extreme measures... They could go on a sign posting rampage, and try to blockSnubby,Beretta 92f, and 1911 access to every business...

    This just doesn't seem the place to make the proverbial stand...

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    peter nap wrote:
    The no firearms signs have no weight Bob, except to notify the person that he is not allowed in with a firearm.

    If he ignores the sign, he can be charged with trespassing because he has been told to NOT come in if he has a gun.

    I have a similar problem on the farm. Virginia law allows dog hunters to enter posted property to retrieve their dogs.

    They cannot take a gun or vehicle. They use that law as an excuse to hunt posted property.

    I get convictions based on game camera pictures of them with a gun passing the NO TRESPASSING signs.
    I just read that one about the dogs too. I still thought there was some clause or code somewhere that required it to be made to the individual.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    "or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign "

    There you go Bob.... "Forbidden" being the keyword.
    Well, since my gun is not only afraid of the dark (so I HAVE to OC), he's afraid to go places alone so I always have to be with him. :P

    Since he's committed to defending me and my family, the least I can do is stick by him and anywhere he's not welcome...I'm not welcome.

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    The real way, IMO, to solve this personal property rights/right to self-defense issue is for someone to get shot on their property and then sue their ever living pants off for failure to protect them after disarming them. After that malls will do a cost/benefit analysis and see the light.

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