imported post
lovenme wrote:
Like I said before I know Gail and I do not believe she would say something like that especially since she works at the desk just outside the chiefs office. I will ask her when I see her again and will update from her mouth wether she said that or not.
If she did I will back down and apologize.
How did the space thing work, was it easier?
Thanks for spacing, it's much easier on the eyes.
You seem to think I was asserting that she expressed her opinion. In no way did I say or imply Gail was giving me her personal opinion. I asked for department policy, and she gave me the answer that it would be assumed that the gun was loaded until proven otherwise. Logically, this means they are assuming I'm violating 12031 (assumption of guilt of a crime) until confirmed otherwise (proven innocent). I don't think it gets much clearer than that.
For your convenience, here's a copy/past of our correspondence. Read it from the bottom up, as my e-mail quotes the original message at the bottom of the reply. The only changes I made were to omit Gail's and my e-mail addresses so they're not added to spam mailing lists.
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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:01:57 AM To
avid Tapley <
email address omitted>
Gail,
I understand the need to exercise caution for the safety of the officers involved. However, there should be an expectation to be treated with the respect due any law abiding citizen. I hope it is not the department's policy to treat law-abiding citizens like criminals; to presume guilt until innocence is proven.
In a recent FBI report on assaults on police officers the FBI found that almost 100% of the firearms used were obtained illegally. The report further states that offenders "eschew holsters" and carry concealed to avoid detection. Please refer to
Force Science News for more information on the FBI report. The officers can rest assured that the "bad guys" will not be carrying their firearms openly in holsters. Thus, anyone openly carrying is probably a law-abiding citizen.
I hope that you will pass this information along for distribution within the police department. I have had extensive interaction with officers from the Modesto PD in the past, and have been impressed with the level of service and professionalism. It encourages me to trust I will continue to see this continue while exercising this nearly forgotten right.
Thank you again for your assistance. Please express my commendation to your supervisor, and keep up the good work.
Regards,
~David Tapley
----- Original Message ----
From: Gail Smith <
email address omitted>
To: David Tapley <
email address omitted>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:01:57 AM
Subject: RE: Question
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Although carrying an unloaded firearm in plain view is not a violation of Penal Code, a police officer responding will consider the firearm as loaded until confirmed otherwise. [/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left] [/align] [align=left]
From: David Tapley [email address omitted]
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 4:19 PM
To: Gail Smith
Subject: Re: Question
[/align] Gail,
I'm disappointed that the city attorney's office is not interested in assisting us in defining the law. I think I understand why they wish to avoid the issue.
How does the police department interpret the law? For purposes of enforcing the law uniformly across the department, I expect there would be some common procedure in place. If there is no common procedure, perhaps there should be. What should one expect the police departments response to be when openly carrying an unloaded firearm.
I'm not asking for legal advice, I'm just asking what to expect.
I would like to thank you again for your assistance on this matter.
Regards,
~David Tapley
----- Original Message ----
From: Gail Smith <
email address omitted>
To: David Tapley <
email address omitted>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 11:39:01 AM
Subject: RE: Question
DIV { MARGIN:0px;} [align=left]
Actually, they just got back to me last thing Friday. They stated that they were not able to assist me and that you shouldconsult with private counsel as to the meaning of the ordinance. [/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left]
Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance.[/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left] [/align] [align=left]
From: David Tapley [email address omitted]
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:34 AM
To: Gail Smith
Subject: Re: Question
[/align] Gail,
I just wanted to check in to see if the city attorney has responded yet. I look forward to receiving their response. I appreciate you forwarding my question to them.
Regards,
~David Tapley
----- Original Message ----
From: Gail Smith <
email address omitted>
To: David Tapley <
email address omitted>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:57:35 PM
Subject: RE: Question
DIV { MARGIN:0px;} [align=left]
Let me check on that MMC question for you. I'll let you know as soon as our City Attorney lets me know! [/align]
From: David Tapley [email address omitted]
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 1:41 PM
To: Gail Smith
Subject: Re: Question
I intend to comply with CA PC sections 12025 and 12031. I currently carry my firearm in a belt holster, with no ammunition or attached to the firearm. I would have a loaded magazine in a belt holster, separate from the firearm.
----- Original Message ----
From: Gail Smith <
email address omitted>
To: David Tapley <
email address omitted>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 1:35:14 PM
Subject: RE: Question
DIV { MARGIN:0px;} [align=left]
Before I can answer your question, I need a little clarification. What exactly are you thinking of doing? When you say carrying an unloaded weapon, do you mean in your car? In your pocket? And where would the bullets be? I just want to be sure that my answer can address your concerns. [/align]
From: David Tapley [email address omitted]
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Gail Smith
Subject: Re: Question
Gail,
Thank you for your response.
CA PC 12020 enumerates objects that the State of California considers to be dangerous weapons. However, 4-2.03.1(a) is vague in saying, "shall mean and include, but is not limited to..." Your reply seems to imply that 4-2.03.1(a) does include unloaded firearms in the definition of 'dangerous weapons.' If this is the case, could you direct me to a clearer definition of what objects are included as 'dangerous weapons?' Or is this sort of thing open to interpretation by police and the courts?
In case I misinterpreted your response, I apologize. I just want to make sure I'm not going to be violating any laws while carrying my (unloaded) firearm in Modesto.
~David
----- Original Message ----
From: Gail Smith <
email address omitted>
To:
email address omitted
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 9:27:25 AM
Subject: RE: Question
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4-2.03.1 of the municipal code covers dangerous weapons, stating (a) Definition. As used in this section “dangerous weapon” shall mean and include, but is not limited to:
(1) Any knife having a blade three inches or more in length, or any snap-blade or spring-blade knife regardless of the length of the blade;
(2) Any ice pick or similar sharp stabbing tool;
(3) Any straight-edge razor or any razor blade fitted to a handle;
(4) Any cutting, stabbing or bludgeoning weapon or device capable of inflicting grievous bodily harm; or
(5) Any dirk or dagger or bludgeon.
(b) Carrying Dangerous Weapon. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry upon his person or to have in his possession or under his control any dangerous weapon; provided that it shall be a defense to any prosecution for a violation of this section, if, at the time of the alleged violation, the instrument or device alleged to be a dangerous weapon was in good faith carried upon the person of the accused or was in good faith in his possession or control for use in his lawful occupation or employment or for the purpose of lawful recreation; and provided, further, that the provisions of this section shall not apply to the commission of any act which is made a public offense by any law of this State.
(c) Disorderly Conduct. It shall be unlawful for any person who has upon his person or in his possession or control any dangerous weapon to engage in any fight or participate in any rough or disorderly conduct upon any public place or way or upon the premises of another. .[/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left]
4-1.1114 covers firearms specifically, stating (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to fire or discharge any pistol, gun, rifle, firearm, cannon, anvil loaded with powder, bow, air gun or any other device whereby shot, bullets or other dangerous missiles are discharged or projected, within the City of Modesto. Provided, however, that any person may, in or upon his own premises, shoot dangerous animals where necessary for the protection of life or property. And further provided, that cannon or anvils may be discharged pursuant to the written permission of the Chief of Police.
(b) Provided, however, that nothing herein contained shall prohibit or prevent maintaining, operating and/or carrying on a pistol and/or rifle range where firing devices and cartridges are of a character and caliber approved by the Chief of Police and for which a permit has been issued pursuant to the provisions of this article.[/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left]
If you need a concealed weapons permit, you would have to apply here at the Police Department. There is a detailed application that must be filled out, a $100 fee, prints and a background check. I have included a copy of our general order showing what conditions must be met in order to qualify for a CCW here in the City of Modesto. The "Good Cause" information is particularly important. And, of course, you have to live within the city limits of Modesto.[/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left]
Feel free to ask for me if you decide to come in to get the application. We are on the 2nd floor in Investigations. [/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left][/align]
Tapley, David
external customer
phone number omitted
email address omitted
I am interested in carrying a firearm within the City of Modesto . I'm aware of the state laws regarding concealed & loaded firearms (CA PC 12025 & 12031) and the School Zone law (626.9), among others.
My concern is if there are any additional local restrictions on firearms. A search through the municipal code rendered nothing about carrying a firearm.
Can you verify there are no additional prohibitions?
Thank you in advance.
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Hope this helps in your search for the truth.