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Thread: CC without permit?

  1. #1
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    Well, this post is basically a question, so here it is:

    Is it legal to conceal carry without a permit on private property with the express permission of the property owner?

    The reason Im asking is that when in the waiting room of my doctor's office (which he owns and operates, private practice, private building, etc), apparently my OCing 'harshly' offended someone in that room, as I was told later. My doctor doesnt oppose OC, but he asked if I would conceal it while on his property for the sake of some of his patients which are there for psycological reasons. So, is this considered an extension of the law which provides you may conceal carry on your property? Can it just be rolled over to say that you can CC on someone else's property sans CCW pending you have their express permission?

    Many thanks, as Ive been having a hard time finding a definitive answer on this one.

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    I believe as long as you have consent from the private property owner, it is OK. You can CCW on your own property, but a doctors office seems grey.

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    Which law lets you CC on your property?

    http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-2...l#NRS202Sec350


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    bplv: I cant actually find said law, nor quote it to you, but I do know it is in the same spirit as the drinking exemption that says you can be way over .10 BAC and still possess a weapon in your own home.

    My instinct was that if I had property owners' express permission, and the property was wholly his, it would be fine. But then I got to thinking...does the fact the office is a publically accessible building matter? Its when I got to this point that I got confused and lost on this subject, since there are too many considerations that I might not see.


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    My reading on the public building thing is that that the building is owned by the public, say a government building. Being open to the public doesn't make it a public building.

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    Aye, its not a public building as defined by the CCW law (posted, government, metal detectors, etc), but it is a public place of business, something which may have some merit in this deal (at least from my view).

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    bplv wrote:
    Which law lets you CC on your property?

    http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-2...l#NRS202Sec350
    Same question. From my reading, you cannot CC without a permit, public or private. So from my reading, the "permission" of the property owner has no legal protection against a class C felony charge.

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    Vegas_Dave wrote:
    bplv wrote:
    Which law lets you CC on your property?

    http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-2...l#NRS202Sec350
    Same question. From my reading, you cannot CC without a permit, public or private. So from my reading, the "permission" of the property owner has no legal protection against a class C felony charge.

    I concur. I've looked up and down the codes already for this precise thing. There is no exemption for people on their own property. As discussed in a previous thread, the law is so lacking in protections that virtually everyone who has bought a gun from a dealer that came in a plasticcase has unknowingly committed a class C felonywhile undiscernably carrying it upon his person at least between the store and his car.How many people I wonder also take their handguns concealed in such a case to and from shooting ranges etc. ?

    I wish NV would adopt Alaska style ccw-laws.


    Isn't it ludicrous that the difference between "discernible" and "indiscernible" makes the difference between perfectly legal and 1-5 years in jail + loss of rights + up to $10,000 fine?

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    ...



    I doubt itsapplicable, butthere is something in thewordingwhichI noticed.


    NRS 202.350 Manufacture, importation, possession or use of dangerous weapon or silencer; carrying concealed weapon without permit; penalties; issuance of permit to carry concealed weapon; exceptions.

    1. Except as otherwise provided in this section and NRS 202.355, and 202.3653 to 202.369, inclusive, a person within this State shall not:

    (a) Manufacture or cause to be manufactured, or import into the State, or keep, offer or expose for sale, or give, lend or possess any knife which is made an integral part of a belt buckle or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a switchblade knife, blackjack, slungshot, billy, sand-club, sandbag or metal knuckles;

    (b) Manufacture or cause to be manufactured, or import into the State, or keep, offer or expose for sale, or give, lend, possess or use a machine gun or a silencer, unless authorized by federal law;

    (c) With the intent to inflict harm upon the person of another, possess or use a nunchaku or trefoil; or emphasis added

    (d) Carry concealed upon his person any:




    It almost looks like the "with intent" portion *could*apply toD) too due to the "OR".Especially since A) and B) do not end in "OR".

    But still though, it is in a different paragraph, and most likely only applies to possessing or carrying a "nunchaku or trefoil" The semicolon before the "OR" also helps separate the ideas, but the OR is strange considering that it is unneccesary. Since it is a list already, there was no need to add it. It may be trying to connect the ideathough of "possessing a nunchaku" and "carry concealed" rather than expanding the condition of illegality to D).

    Its not convinced there is meaning to the "or",and I doubt it'd hold up in court. I am no lawyer. I merely show the funkiness of the wording for purpose of discussion.

    Reading the rest of the section 202.355 shows that its intent is seemingly to regulate concealed carrying without a permit regardless of intent, since it mentions the issuance of permits etc. in such a way that implies that they would be necessary. It wouldn't make sense for a permit that only provided an exception for carrying concealed "with intent to harm."

    [ormightself-defense as an intentbe considered"intent to harm"?]





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    The NRS does not cover private property. We are not in certain ways regulated on private property and even exemptions exist for public buildings with permission.

    One does not need to be of age to drive a motor vehicle or posses a licenseto drive around their property or the private property of others with permission. We are not a society of " we ask for permission" we are one of if it is not specifically prohibited then it is allowed.

    I would say that if there is a law the speciifcally speeks to private property then abide by it but I know of no such law. Carry of a firearms openly isn't even spoken about in the NRS. So what is not prohibited is allowed. Putting the gun in a holster equates to putting the gun in a gun case marked Glock Springfield etc from a store. EVERYONE KNOWS IT"S A GUN. It's not concealing it, the ordinary observation applies, we all know it is a gun sticking out of the piece of leather.

    Private property usually trumps most law anyway. If I want to prohibit you from being on my property or carrying a firearms on my property I can. You may be asked to leave private property at anytime for nearly any reason. If your disruptive in a movie theater they will ask you to leave refuse and you can be charged with trespass. You have a right to pay and watch but it only goes so far. Hence why those firearms signs are enforcable only for trespass.

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    [gunrunner1911 wrote:
    Putting the gun in a holster equates to putting the gun in a gun case marked Glock Springfield etc from a store. EVERYONE KNOWS IT"S A GUN. It's not concealing it, the ordinary observation applies, we all know it is a gun sticking out of the piece of leather.


    Everyone indeed should discern that holster = gun. And I would agree too that gun boxes should not be considered concealing a gun.

    However, thecases for many guns do not look significantly different from tool boxes and drill bit boxes, especially from a distance. They all have the logo or the name on them, but you can't really tell unless you are fairly close up (some boxes are more obvious than others.)

    Now I suppose if you were really just walking out of the gun store to your car it should be apparent that its probably a gun. I'd imagine however that a lot of people have used the same boxes to transport their firearm to other locations, and probably 90% of the people who saw itjust thought it was a tool box.

    To show my point, examine the following image.



    Before you look closely at the image below, Which ones of these do you thinkare gun boxes and which ones are tool boxes? There are two of each. It's especially hard to tell looking at the backs of these boxes. I'm not too surprised if you can figure it out, but can anaverage person?

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    Now here is the fronts of the boxes. Two of them are a dead giveaway, but the other two are still not so obvious. Even here, from any signifcant distance I don't think you could decipher the Beretta logo. Only the "UltraLok" case's brightly colored label would say "probably not a gun case."



    Thegun casesare top right and bottom left. Its true that these cases are a lot less obvious looking than most cases. And my intention isn'tto say that gun casesare unidentifiable, but ratherwhat the worse caseLE/Judge encounter could result in.



    I would expect anyone of reasonable mind to think it was okay to have the gun in its original case. But ifone was walking through town (on the way to shooting range maybe, or any other reason),andhad it in the caseit wasbought it in and happened to get stopped couldthe personbe criminally charged for concealment?


    How about when people get guns at a gun show? Its been a while since I've been to one, but last time I did, I seem to remember seeing people walk out after putting guns in plastic bags etc. I'd love to think that a gun is okay no matter what if its in a container but the law isn't too clear.


    Although I've never heard of anyone being arrested for anything like having a gun "concealed"in a gun case the wording of the law doesn't inspire confidence in the idea.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum36/8570-1.html

    Here is a discussion brought up earlier about a similar topic.




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    gunrunner1911 wrote:
    The NRS does not cover private property. We are not in certain ways regulated on private property and even exemptions exist for public buildings with permission.

    One does not need to be of age to drive a motor vehicle or posses a licenseto drive around their property or the private property of others with permission. We are not a society of " we ask for permission" we are one of if it is not specifically prohibited then it is allowed.

    I would say that if there is a law the speciifcally speeks to private property then abide by it but I know of no such law. Carry of a firearms openly isn't even spoken about in the NRS. So what is not prohibited is allowed. Putting the gun in a holster equates to putting the gun in a gun case marked Glock Springfield etc from a store. EVERYONE KNOWS IT"S A GUN. It's not concealing it, the ordinary observation applies, we all know it is a gun sticking out of the piece of leather.

    Private property usually trumps most law anyway. If I want to prohibit you from being on my property or carrying a firearms on my property I can. You may be asked to leave private property at anytime for nearly any reason. If your disruptive in a movie theater they will ask you to leave refuse and you can be charged with trespass. You have a right to pay and watch but it only goes so far. Hence why those firearms signs are enforcable only for trespass.
    Agreed.

    Jesus people, if it is not stated explicitly, it is not illegal. Following some your your logic, you better not CCW inside your house either. :?

    You own the property, you can CCW on it.

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    I think I botched my last posting, so here it is again, sorta...

    Can I Carry a Concealed Firearm? It is illegal for a person to carry a concealed firearm on his person, loaded or unloaded, unless he has a valid concealed weapon permit, or is legally entitled to do so otherwise. Can I Conceal a Firearm Without a Permit? Without a CCW permit, a firearm may be concealed in your home or vehicle as long as it is not on your person, concealed by your person, or in a personal item (such as a purse, backpack, briefcase) carried by you.

    http://www.nsrpa.us/legal/nevlocal.html

    And to the person that said "You own the property, you can CCW on it", you probably shouldn't be giving people advice if your are not going to research the subject, and this is why. OUR LAWS SUCK. They are in no way reasonable, and tend to revolve around the almighty dollar. You may hold a deed to "your" property, but don't think you "own" it.

    Anyway this is my first posting on the net, so I hope it helps.


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    crkrjkhd wrote:
    I think I botched my last posting, so here it is again, sorta...

    Can I Carry a Concealed Firearm? It is illegal for a person to carry a concealed firearm on his person, loaded or unloaded, unless he has a valid concealed weapon permit, or is legally entitled to do so otherwise. Can I Conceal a Firearm Without a Permit? Without a CCW permit, a firearm may be concealed in your home or vehicle as long as it is not on your person, concealed by your person, or in a personal item (such as a purse, backpack, briefcase) carried by you.

    http://www.nsrpa.us/legal/nevlocal.html

    And to the person that said "You own the property, you can CCW on it", you probably shouldn't be giving people advice if your are not going to research the subject, and this is why. OUR LAWS SUCK. They are in no way reasonable, and tend to revolve around the almighty dollar. You may hold a deed to "your" property, but don't think you "own" it.

    Anyway this is my first posting on the net, so I hope it helps.
    revised:

    spoke to my best friend (LEO) and he agrees that on private property, you are free to do as you please.

    However, in a business, unless you OWN the property, it is not legal.

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    crkrjkhd wrote:
    I think I botched my last posting, so here it is again, sorta...

    Can I Carry a Concealed Firearm? It is illegal for a person to carry a concealed firearm on his person, loaded or unloaded, unless he has a valid concealed weapon permit, or is legally entitled to do so otherwise. Can I Conceal a Firearm Without a Permit? Without a CCW permit, a firearm may be concealed in your home or vehicle as long as it is not on your person, concealed by your person, or in a personal item (such as a purse, backpack, briefcase) carried by you.

    http://www.nsrpa.us/legal/nevlocal.html

    And to the person that said "You own the property, you can CCW on it", you probably shouldn't be giving people advice if your are not going to research the subject, and this is why. OUR LAWS SUCK. They are in no way reasonable, and tend to revolve around the almighty dollar. You may hold a deed to "your" property, but don't think you "own" it.

    Anyway this is my first posting on the net, so I hope it helps.
    So you have to OC in YOUR OWN HOUSE? Lol, you guys are hilarious. How would you enforce that?

    Some of you need to back up and look at what you are saying. The CC laws do not apply to your own private property, like your house/property. NRS does not apply there. I know gun store employees CC without permit at the consent of the property owner, so I guess they should all be felons now.

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    Vegas_Dave wrote:
    revised:

    spoke to my best friend (LEO) and he agrees that on private property, you are free to do as you please.

    However, in a business, unless you OWN the property, it is not legal.
    Not to be argumentative, and without regard to my own interpretation, just because your buddy wouldn't charge me with it doesn't mean another LEO won't.

    If it really is illegal, articulable suspicion of this "crime" would be difficult to ascertain. And a cop will only ever get in my house with a warrant.

    I'd never seen the page quoted (nsrpa), but after reviewing it, IMHO its not only outdated, but inaccurate. For example, the answer to the question "Can I conceal a firearm without a permit?" states "Without a CCW permit, a firearm may be concealed in your home or vehicle as long as it is not on your person, concealed by your person, or in a personal item (such as a purse, backpack, briefcase) carried by you." This is inaccurate because pursuant to NRS, the definition of a concealed weapon is one that is "concealed upon your person so as not to be discernible by ordinary observation".

    If my gun is on my bookshelf and I'm standing there looking for a book, my person is concealing the presence of that gun. It's not a concealed weapon just because my body conceals someone's line of sight to the weapon.

    There's been debate here about whether carrying a weapon in a gun case is considered concealed, which probably everyone who's ever purchased a gun retail has done. Therein lies the silliness of most gun laws. The intent of the law of course is to require permits for concealed weapons. Unfortunately, the wording of the law allows for interpretations that pretty much criminalize the legitimate purchase of an otherwise legal weapon. In Nevada, to get a permit, you must be certified on the make and model. So if you've bought a new make or model, you can't conceal it. Thus every person who's ever purchased a new gun for which they do not have a certification on the same make and model is guilty of carrying a concealed weapon without a permit (unless they bought or brought a holster and walked out proudly displaying their new purchase). OC anyone?

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    IMHO (IANAL)

    You don't have to OWN the property to CC on it, being the lessee would suffice or having the permission of the owner/lessee (who ever is occupying it at the time) would suffice. That property can be indoors or outdoors so if you want to go to your buddy's place and cc in his front yard and he doesn't care -- go for it.

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    wayneco wrote:
    IMHO (IANAL)

    You don't have to OWN the property to CC on it, being the lessee would suffice or having the permission of the owner/lessee (who ever is occupying it at the time) would suffice. That property can be indoors or outdoors so if you want to go to your buddy's place and cc in his front yard and he doesn't care -- go for it.
    QFT. We carry at my work with no permits. Perfectly legal and within our rights. Our team of Lawyers concurs. Same with our Local, County and NV senate and house connections.

    Some of you need to look at what you are saying, as it does not make sense. You are interpreting laws to situations that do not apply. CC'ing in your backyard is perfecyty legal. CC'ing in your driveway while you wash your car sans permit is also legal, providing you DO NOT step onto the common property, I.E. the street or on a neighbors property with out consent. It is as simple as that.

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    While I tend to agree with you, I believe the debate helps me understand.

    To play devils advocate, schizrade, you say that NRS doesn't apply on your private property. But I'm not allowed to have drugs, or beat my wife, or give alcohol to my children, all codified in NRS. There is no exemption on private property. Why is this different?



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    timf343 wrote:
    Vegas_Dave wrote:
    revised:

    spoke to my best friend (LEO) and he agrees that on private property, you are free to do as you please.

    However, in a business, unless you OWN the property, it is not legal.
    Not to be argumentative, and without regard to my own interpretation, just because your buddy wouldn't charge me with it doesn't mean another LEO won't.

    If it really is illegal, articulable suspicion of this "crime" would be difficult to ascertain. And a cop will only ever get in my house with a warrant.

    I'd never seen the page quoted (nsrpa), but after reviewing it, IMHO its not only outdated, but inaccurate. For example, the answer to the question "Can I conceal a firearm without a permit?" states "Without a CCW permit, a firearm may be concealed in your home or vehicle as long as it is not on your person, concealed by your person, or in a personal item (such as a purse, backpack, briefcase) carried by you." This is inaccurate because pursuant to NRS, the definition of a concealed weapon is one that is "concealed upon your person so as not to be discernible by ordinary observation".

    If my gun is on my bookshelf and I'm standing there looking for a book, my person is concealing the presence of that gun. It's not a concealed weapon just because my body conceals someone's line of sight to the weapon.

    There's been debate here about whether carrying a weapon in a gun case is considered concealed, which probably everyone who's ever purchased a gun retail has done. Therein lies the silliness of most gun laws. The intent of the law of course is to require permits for concealed weapons. Unfortunately, the wording of the law allows for interpretations that pretty much criminalize the legitimate purchase of an otherwise legal weapon. In Nevada, to get a permit, you must be certified on the make and model. So if you've bought a new make or model, you can't conceal it. Thus every person who's ever purchased a new gun for which they do not have a certification on the same make and model is guilty of carrying a concealed weapon without a permit (unless they bought or brought a holster and walked out proudly displaying their new purchase). OC anyone?
    You have some inaccuracies in what you are saying. The page in discussion is from the state rifle/pistol association and is quoting from a 1993 opinion by the A.G. of Nevada. You can search and find the opinion on another thread in the Nevada section. The A.G. came up with the opinion that if you were carrying a briefcase or a gunbag, that's concealed. However, if the same bag is sitting in your car, that's not concealed carry. That's the issue that was being addressed, the 'concealed upon your person' and what that means.

    Further, if you buy a new make and model, the assertion that 'you can't conceal it' is half right. You can conceal it IF it's a revolver as the Nevada permit allows you to qualify and carry any revolvers without having to requalify. You can also purchase and carry the same make and model of weapon without having to qualify---such as you have a CZ 75 and buy another CZ 75, you don't have to requalify.

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    timf343 wrote:
    While I tend to agree with you, I believe the debate helps me understand.

    To play devils advocate, schizrade, you say that NRS doesn't apply on your private property. But I'm not allowed to have drugs, or beat my wife, or give alcohol to my children, all codified in NRS. There is no exemption on private property. Why is this different?

    The reason that this is different is twofold:

    First, and most obviously, there is nothing explicitly in the NRS that applies this CCW section to private property. Nevada, as most states do, follows a rule of 'strict interpretation', meaning that they strictly follow the law as it's written.

    Second, historically, firearms are part of the inherent right to self defense. The right to self defense is a right that everyone has; it is not a right granted by the state; and your property has historically in Nevada, had about the same treatment as the Castle doctrine. The only time, realistically, that the police are going to be on your property is if there has been a shooting and the issue is not going to be 'how was he carrying'? The issue is going to be 'was the shooting justified'?. Not only that, but lawful use of deadly force can, in some jurisdictions, be a bar to prosecution for carrying illegally. That used to be the case in California---whether that is still true, I don't know.


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    Loneviking wrote:
    timf343 wrote:
    While I tend to agree with you, I believe the debate helps me understand.

    To play devils advocate, schizrade, you say that NRS doesn't apply on your private property. But I'm not allowed to have drugs, or beat my wife, or give alcohol to my children, all codified in NRS. There is no exemption on private property. Why is this different?

    The reason that this is different is twofold:

    First, and most obviously, there is nothing explicitly in the NRS that applies this CCW section to private property. Nevada, as most states do, follows a rule of 'strict interpretation', meaning that they strictly follow the law as it's written.

    Second, historically, firearms are part of the inherent right to self defense. The right to self defense is a right that everyone has; it is not a right granted by the state; and your property has historically in Nevada, had about the same treatment as the Castle doctrine. The only time, realistically, that the police are going to be on your property is if there has been a shooting and the issue is not going to be 'how was he carrying'? The issue is going to be 'was the shooting justified'?. Not only that, but lawful use of deadly force can, in some jurisdictions, be a bar to prosecution for carrying illegally. That used to be the case in California---whether that is still true, I don't know.
    Last I checked it is the same in Cali. You can carry concealed on your own PP.

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    I don't want to come across as hypocritical, since I OC without "explicit permission" of law. But in this case, there is language forbidding CC without a permit. I'm just trying to understand what legal text excludes your home from this requirement. Some have suggested you may do so at your business if you own the business. What about if you have permission of the business owner? Again, what text in the NRS limits the geography of the permit requirement?

    Not trying to beat this to death, I just don't think I've gotten a convincing answer. Consider this NRS code section:
    NRS 202.3667

    Permittee to carry permit and proper identification when in possession of concealed firearm; penalty.

    1. Each permittee shall carry the permit, or a duplicate issued pursuant to the provisions of NRS 202.367, together with proper identification whenever the permittee is in actual possession of a concealed firearm. Both the permit and proper identification must be presented if requested by a peace officer.

    2. A permittee who violates the provisions of this section is subject to a civil penalty of $25 for each violation.
    (Added to NRS by 1995, 2724)
    (emphasis added)

    I believe the red words above are pretty explicit. "Whenever" means any time, including when you're at home. I agree that the enforcement of this (for those at home) is impossible and probably never addressed. But I disagree that any reason, including being impossible to inforce, makes it legal.

    Tim

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    timf343 wrote:
    I don't want to come across as hypocritical, since I OC without "explicit permission" of law. But in this case, there is language forbidding CC without a permit. I'm just trying to understand what legal text excludes your home from this requirement. Some have suggested you may do so at your business if you own the business. What about if you have permission of the business owner? Again, what text in the NRS limits the geography of the permit requirement?

    Not trying to beat this to death, I just don't think I've gotten a convincing answer. Consider this NRS code section:
    NRS 202.3667

    Permittee to carry permit and proper identification when in possession of concealed firearm; penalty.

    1. Each permittee shall carry the permit, or a duplicate issued pursuant to the provisions of NRS 202.367, together with proper identification whenever the permittee is in actual possession of a concealed firearm. Both the permit and proper identification must be presented if requested by a peace officer.

    2. A permittee who violates the provisions of this section is subject to a civil penalty of $25 for each violation.
    (Added to NRS by 1995, 2724)
    (emphasis added)

    I believe the red words above are pretty explicit. "Whenever" means any time, including when you're at home. I agree that the enforcement of this (for those at home) is impossible and probably never addressed. But I disagree that any reason, including being impossible to inforce, makes it legal.

    Tim
    Well that would be the burden of whoever is trying to prosecute that "crime". I do not see how this could reach into your home. We have a team of 3 lawyers, along with many military and State officials that all agree that it is NOT illegal for people to conceal carry on private property/business without permit. If it was illegal, the Washoe County DA would have arrested all of us at work. Only one person out of 6 that carry's has a CCW. The ADA's are in once a month picking up various paperwork.

    Like I said, I think you are applying this too liberally.

  25. #25
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    Since I can't find a topic area regarding castle doctrine, this seems like the most related area to ask this question. In Nevada, if someone breaks into your home, you have the right to use deadly force. The presumption of the law is in the favor of the homeowner. However,does Nevada law incorporate the protections that many other states have in protecting the homeowner from civil suit from the criminal (or his family) who broke in?

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