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Thread: Off duty cop killed by Baltimore poilice

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    http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=1392624&nid=25




    Baltimore Police Commissioner Frederick H. Bealefeld III answers a question during a news conference, Thursday, April 24, 2008, in Baltimore regarding the shooting death of off-duty police officer Norman Stamp by another officer. He said Stamp was shot and killed by another officer Thursday morning after he walked out of a bar with brass knuckles to join a fight outside, then drew a handgun after being hit with a Taser.(AP Photo/Rob Carr)
    By ALEX DOMINGUEZ
    Associated Press Writer


    BALTIMORE (AP) - An off-duty officer was shot and killed by another officer early Thursday after he drew a handgun when police tried to quell a brawl at a strip club, police said.

    Officer Norman Stamp, 65, was fatally shot after he failed to follow an order to halt and instead drew his weapon, Police Commissioner Frederick H. Bealefeld III said at a news conference.

    The uniformed officer, John Torres, had first used a Taser in an unsuccessful attempt to subdue him, Bealefeld said. Torres did not recognize Stamp, and there was no indication Stamp identified himself as an officer, he said.

    Torres, 26, "did what he was taught to do in these types of situations," Bealefeld said.

    Officers responded shortly after midnight to reports of a fight outside the Haven Place club. Torres stationed himself by a door to prevent anyone else from joining the melee, and confronted Stamp when he emerged wearing brass knuckles, Bealefeld said.

    The jolt from the stun gun caused Stamp to fall to the ground, Bealefeld said, at which point Stamp drew his handgun. After he was shot, Stamp was rushed to a hospital, where he died around 1:30 a.m.

    Stamp had been with the department 44 years, making him one of its longest-serving officers.

    "Officer Stamp was a mentor to some and a friend to many," Bealefeld said. "This is an incredibly difficult time."

    The brawl began after several women came to the bar looking for work and "some people made comments about them," Bealefeld said. Stamp's role had not been determined.

    Police spokesman Sterling Clifford said Torres, who joined the department in 2002, would not have recognized Stamp because the older officer had spent several years in the unit that patrols the Inner Harbor.

    "He just wouldn't have ever run into him," Clifford said. Torres was placed on administrative duty after the shooting.

    Stamp became the seventh person shot and killed by Baltimore police this year, Clifford said.

    (Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.) By ALEX DOMINGUEZ
    Associated Press Writer



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    Sad day indeed... After 44 years of service..... Man that is a long time!!

    No clue why he approached with brass knuckles.....

    Just goes to show that if anyone isarmed and you go or appear to go for your gun you can get hurt bad.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    No clue why he approached with brass knuckles.....
    very old school indeed.

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    dkd wrote:
    Stamp became the seventh person shot and killed by Baltimore police this year, Clifford said.
    So much for lucky 7's.

    65, brass knuckles, taser just pissed him off more.. My kind of guy.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    What kind of cop carries brass knuckles?

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    longwatch wrote:
    What kind of cop carries brass knuckles?
    well, it is a less lethal form of self defense. I have a pair myself, that I would carry were State laws to allow it.

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    Damn. This just sucks all around, drives home the point alcohol and firearms dont mix. I feel for the Officer who shot the guy.

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    smccomas wrote:
    Damn. This just sucks all around, drives home the point alcohol and firearms dont mix. I feel for the Officer who shot the guy.
    well, hopefully he will eventual;y come to terms with the fact that he did what he had to do. if you have already tasered somebody, and tehy still get back up and draw on you, well your hands are pretty much tied. at that point it becomes a live or die situation, regardless of who the other guy is. a 44 year veteran of teh force should have known better than to pull on an officer, he should have beenattempting to DEescalate the situation.

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    Just goes to show that you NEVER know what is going to happen when go out.

    I am just puzzled at why the off duty guy would do what he did. After 44 years on the job... he would certainly know not to go for a gun after being tasered by a uniformed cop. And to approach with brass knuckles!!

    I know he must have had some balls made of brass too.

    I feel for the shooter... I would be devastated to have taken down a guy that had been on 44 years. To think that this guy had so much time on and could have retired twice over now.

    Brass knuckles!!! That is old school!!!


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    Mmm Tasers strike again...

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Mmm Tasers strike again...
    Or, in this case, didn't strike.

    Seemes like they all to often, work to well (kill the guy) or not well enough (like this time).

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    dkd wrote:
    ...Torres did not recognize Stamp, and there was no indication Stamp identified himself as an officer, he said...
    Because, you know, that would have made it all ok. We don't arrest cops.

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    unreconstructed1 wrote:
    smccomas wrote:
    Damn. This just sucks all around, drives home the point alcohol and firearms dont mix. I feel for the Officer who shot the guy.
    well, hopefully he will eventual;y come to terms with the fact that he did what he had to do. if you have already tasered somebody, and tehy still get back up and draw on you, well your hands are pretty much tied. at that point it becomes a live or die situation, regardless of who the other guy is. a 44 year veteran of teh force should have known better than to pull on an officer, he should have beenattempting to DEescalate the situation.
    You are correct I dont fault him at all. For his sake it is probably better that he didnt know at the time that it was another officer hecould have hesitated and gotten himself killed. He did what he had to do to protect himself and stop the threat.

    This is a bad situation all around, heart goes out to the guy.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Just goes to show that you NEVER know what is going to happen when go out.

    I am just puzzled at why the off duty guy would do what he did. After 44 years on the job... he would certainly know not to go for a gun after being tasered by a uniformed cop. And to approach with brass knuckles!!

    I know he must have had some balls made of brass too.

    I feel for the shooter... I would be devastated to have taken down a guy that had been on 44 years. To think that this guy had so much time on and could have retired twice over now.

    Brass knuckles!!! That is old school!!!
    I assume he was drunk also. He should have known not to get **** canned and be armed.

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    hsmith wrote:
    I assume he was drunk also. He should have known not to get **** canned and be armed.
    True dat!



    Also, I am glad to see that I'm not the only one that thinks tasers are junk. I would argue that tasers are unconstitutional and are cruel and unusual punishment. A good wack to the buttock, arm, leg whatever with a nightstick is much better, and cheaper.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    longwatch wrote:
    What kind of cop carries brass knuckles?
    What is wrong with brass knuckles? Are they illegal in Maryland? Brass knuckles can be bad, but they are only a tool. Perhaps he had them on because he didn't want to have to shoot anybody, but still wanted to defend himself during the bar fight. He was fairly old after all.


    To answer your question - the kind of cop that has survived for 44 years ina very dangerous part of Baltimore.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    hsmith wrote:
    I assume he was drunk also. He should have known not to get **** canned and be armed.
    Ya.... but 44 years on the job??? Old School!!!

    They did not have all these rules back then and I am sure he lived in the past when times were easier.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Thundar wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    What kind of cop carries brass knuckles?
    What is wrong with brass knuckles? Are they illegal in Maryland? Brass knuckles can be bad, but they are only a tool. Perhaps he had them on because he didn't want to have to shoot anybody, but still wanted to defend himself during the bar fight. He was fairly old after all.


    To answer your question - the kind of cop that has survived for 44 years ina very dangerous part of Baltimore.
    Well unless he was authorized by the BPD to carry them they are illegal.
    Cite:
    § 4-101. Dangerous weapons.
    (a) Definitions.-
    (1) In this section the following words have the meanings indicated.
    (2) "Nunchaku" means a device constructed of two pieces of any substance, including wood, metal, or plastic, connected by any chain, rope, leather, or other flexible material not exceeding 24 inches in length.
    (3) (i) "Pepper mace" means an aerosol propelled combination of highly disabling irritant pepper-based products.
    (ii) "Pepper mace" is also known as oleoresin capsicum (o.c.) spray.
    (4) "Star knife" means a device used as a throwing weapon, consisting of several sharp or pointed blades arrayed as radially disposed arms about a central disk.
    (5) (i) "Weapon" includes a dirk knife, bowie knife, switchblade knife, star knife, sandclub, metal knuckles, razor, and nunchaku.
    (ii) "Weapon" does not include:
    1. a handgun; or
    2. a penknife without a switchblade.
    (b) Exceptions for certain individuals.- This section does not prohibit the following individuals from carrying a weapon:
    (1) an officer of the State, or of any county or municipal corporation of the State, who is entitled or required to carry the weapon as part of the officer's official equipment, or by any conservator of the peace, who is entitled or required to carry the weapon as part of the conservator's official equipment, or by any officer or conservator of the peace of another state who is temporarily in this State;
    (2) a special agent of a railroad;
    (3) a holder of a permit to carry a handgun issued under Title 5, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article; or
    (4) an individual who carries the weapon as a reasonable precaution against apprehended danger, subject to the right of the court in an action arising under this section to judge the reasonableness of the carrying of the weapon, and the proper occasion for carrying it, under the evidence in the case.
    (c) Prohibited.-
    (1) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon of any kind concealed on or about the person.
    (2) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon, chemical mace, pepper mace, or a tear gas device openly with the intent or purpose of injuring an individual in an unlawful manner.

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    "Brass knuckles!!! That is old school!!!" -- LEO 229

    Well, so was the cop "old school" at 65 years of age!

    Brass knuckles were prettypopular back in the 1950s. But still, he was65 and still ready to duke it out with someone? That's rather risky for us older folks, isn't it?

    Reminds me ofToby Keith's song "As Good as I Once Was," where it goes:

    I used to be hell on wheels
    back when I was a younger man
    now my body says, "You can't do this boy"
    but my pride says, "Oh, yes you can"

    Maybe he was drinking and wasn't thinking right.

    -- John D.


    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    longwatch wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    What kind of cop carries brass knuckles?
    What is wrong with brass knuckles? Are they illegal in Maryland? Brass knuckles can be bad, but they are only a tool. Perhaps he had them on because he didn't want to have to shoot anybody, but still wanted to defend himself during the bar fight. He was fairly old after all.


    To answer your question - the kind of cop that has survived for 44 years ina very dangerous part of Baltimore.
    Well unless he was authorized by the BPD to carry them they are illegal.
    Cite:
    § 4-101. Dangerous weapons.
    ((ii) "Weapon" does not include:
    (3) a holder of a permit to carry a handgun issued under Title 5, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article; or
    (4) an individual who carries the weapon as a reasonable precaution against apprehended danger, subject to the right of the court in an action arising under this section to judge the reasonableness of the carrying of the weapon, and the proper occasion for carrying it, under the evidence in the case.
    (c) Prohibited.-
    (1) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon of any kind concealed on or about the person.
    (2) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon, chemical mace, pepper mace, or a tear gas device openly with the intent or purpose of injuring an individual in an unlawful manner.
    There is more to it than being authorized by the PD. As I read the § it is also not a dangerous weapon if the victim had a permit to carry a handgun or if the brass knuckles were carried as a reasonable precaution against apprehended danger.

    If the victim did not fall under any of the three exceptions, then he was prohibited from concealing the brass knuckles, not carrying them.

    Why the comdemnation of a police officer that carries less than lethal brass knuckles? The brass knuckles, like firearms, are a tool. The brass knuckles are, like handguns in Md.,legal with a permit to carry handguns.

    Longwatch, please don't misread my question. I clearly don't have the information necessary to make a personal judgement upon the elder officer's use of brass knuckles. My question is simply why condemn somebody for possessing a usually less than lethal weapon? Iuse the wordcondemn in this question because of the clearly pejorative nature of your original question: "What kind of cop uses brass knuckles?" I have heard similar pejorative questions from those that oppose the open carry of handguns.


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    There's a lot of bad stuff and dirty money that goes on at the docks. Maybe Stamp was a bad cop on the take for years and felt invincible. Not saying that's the case, but it fits with the strip club and bar brawl.

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    Pointman wrote:
    There's a lot of bad stuff and dirty money that goes on at the docks. .....REMOVED...... Not saying that's the case, but it fits with the strip club and bar brawl.
    I have to say that the "snipped portion" I removed from your postreally was not necessary.... :shock:

    Thisguyserved 44 years on the job!!He was shot and nobody really knows why he walked out with brass knuckles.He is dead and truly does notdeserve to have his reputation tarnished and questioned just yet.

    What you posted IMO was done in poor taste...

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    He was shot and nobody really knows why he walked out with brass knuckles.Â*He is dead and truly does notÂ*deserve to have his reputation tarnished [further].

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Just goes to show that you NEVER know what is going to happen when go out.

    I am just puzzled at why the off duty guy would do what he did. After 44 years on the job... he would certainly know not to go for a gun after being tasered by a uniformed cop. And to approach with brass knuckles!!

    I know he must have had some balls made of brass too.

    I feel for the shooter...Â* I would be devastated to have taken down a guy that had been on 44 years. To think that this guy had so much time on and could have retiredÂ* twice over now.

    Brass knuckles!!!Â* That is old school!!!
    Here's the way I see it.

    You either have a rogue officer that's making #$^(& up to justify the shooting, or you have an officer who's 'teaching' younger officers to get drunk, get involved in bar fights, bring illegal weapons to said barfight (gun, brass knuckles) then try to SHOOT a uniformed officer....

    Either way, that's one F'ed up department, that's for sure.
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    Thundar wrote:
    ...What is wrong with brass knuckles? Are they illegal in Maryland? Brass knuckles can be bad, but they are only a tool...
    Exactly what I have said all along I really don't understand why anyone who is in favor of someone being able to defend themselves would have a problem with brass knucks. I have a pair that I carried every day until I discovered that they were illegal.

    I personally believe that there should be no "prohibited weapons" list for folks who have no criminal record, and for folks who don't have violent crime convistions as well.

    look at it this way. say someone can't get an HCP, should they be left defenseless? Brass knuckles at least give them some way to defend themselves, same as knives, pepper spray etc. etc.

    If I wanted to, I see no reason in teh world why I shouldn't be allowed to carry knucks, a bowie knife, or any other weapon see fit. of course I also don't believe in NFA laws either, so I am more or less considered a right wing nut anyway...

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