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Thread: RCW vs. WAC

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    Hey everyone i had a quick question that i was hoping people on this board might be able to help me answer. As i stated in my first thread i currently am a student at CWU which does forbid firearms under WAC 106-120. My question is what really is the difference between an RCW versus a WAC when it comes to enforcement? For example if i was to leave my firearm in my vehicle which is on school grounds would they have the legal right to search my vehicle if they suspected i was in violation of the WAC or would i have the right to refuse? I know under RCW's you have the right to refuse a search of your vehicle unless placed under arrest or a warrant is obtained. Can you be placed under arrested for violation of a WAC or can a search be performed?

    Thanks!

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    This came up a few month ago. The general consensus is as long as you are a student, the WAC applies to you. You can't be charged as a criminal, but you can be expelled and maybe fined by CWU. Whether or not the fine sticks is another issue, but you can't be charged with violating a law. WAC's only apply for people within that orginization. It's unfortunate, but that's a fact of life for students.

    As far as I know, and I haven't studied the WAC's that greatly since I'm no longer a student and I just wanted to know what happens when I go to a college campus now, but I don't think you can be arrested for violationg a WAC. I think you can be detained since you are apart of that orginaztion, but there is no crime.

    I also think you can refuse consent to search your vehicle with no problem.

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    thanks for the reads. After skimming through the first one you posted i decided to look up to see if CWU has a similar statement in their RCW and sure enough they did.

    Under RCW 28B.35.120:

    (1) Shall have full control of the regional university and its property of various kinds, except as otherwise provided by law.
    and

    (12) May promulgate such rules and regulations, and perform all other acts not forbidden by law, as the board of trustees may in its discretion deem necessary or appropriate to the administration of the regional university.
    So again, dont you think this would be telling me that the rules they have in place to forbide any firearms is flat out going against the RCW

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    Izzle wrote:
    thanks for the reads. After skimming through the first one you posted i decided to look up to see if CWU has a similar statement in their RCW and sure enough they did.

    Under RCW 28B.35.120:

    (1) Shall have full control of the regional university and its property of various kinds, except as otherwise provided by law.
    and

    (12) May promulgate such rules and regulations, and perform all other acts not forbidden by law, as the board of trustees may in its discretion deem necessary or appropriate to the administration of the regional university.
    So again, dont you think this would be telling me that the rules they have in place to forbide any firearms is flat out going against the RCW
    RCW 9.41.290 forbids firearm restrictions.

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    expvideo wrote:
    Izzle wrote:
    thanks for the reads. After skimming through the first one you posted i decided to look up to see if CWU has a similar statement in their RCW and sure enough they did.

    Under RCW 28B.35.120:

    (1) Shall have full control of the regional university and its property of various kinds, except as otherwise provided by law.
    and

    (12) May promulgate such rules and regulations, and perform all other acts not forbidden by law, as the board of trustees may in its discretion deem necessary or appropriate to the administration of the regional university.
    So again, dont you think this would be telling me that the rules they have in place to forbide any firearms is flat out going against the RCW
    RCW 9.41.290 forbids firearm restrictions.
    We are still waiting for someone to challenge this in court. Problem is you have to have the money for a lawyer and get caught. Most students don't have the money and can't afford to lose out on their education. It will probably take someone registering for a class outside of a degree program and then open carrying to class every day for this to go to court.

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    RCW 9.41.290 forbids firearm restrictions.
    I think you need to read 9.41.290 again. It only applies to laws and ordinances passed by cities towns and counties.

    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those [/b]laws and ordinances[/b] relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.


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    deanf wrote:
    RCW 9.41.290 forbids firearm restrictions.
    I think you need to read 9.41.290 again. It only applies to laws and ordinances passed by cities towns and counties.

    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.
    That and it is not a law or ordinance. It is a college policy.

    (12) May promulgate such rules and regulations, and perform all other acts not forbidden by law, as the board of trustees may in its discretion deem necessary or appropriate to the administration of the regional university.
    As far as this goes it is saying that they may create rules and regulations even if it is not forbidden by law. They could have a rule declaring a 7 day suspension for staff and students caught chewing gum if they wanted to.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    joeroket wrote:
    deanf wrote:
    RCW 9.41.290 forbids firearm restrictions.
    I think you need to read 9.41.290 again. It only applies to laws and ordinances passed by cities towns and counties.

    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.
    That and it is not a law or ordinance. It is a college policy.

    (12) May promulgate such rules and regulations, and perform all other acts not forbidden by law, as the board of trustees may in its discretion deem necessary or appropriate to the administration of the regional university.
    As far as this goes it is saying that they may create rules and regulations even if it is not forbidden by law. They could have a rule declaring a 7 day suspension for staff and students caught chewing gum if they wanted to.
    +1. It gives them quite a lot of power. The only Institution of Higher Education that I know of that has the exception that 'none of the above shall be construed to deny the legal and consitutional rights of a student' is the University of Washington. That is the only place you can carry as a student with the knowledge that if you're caught, there's a legal loophole that will save your butt, but not after having to pay a lawyer to do so. All others, to my knowledge, are SOL.
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    deanf wrote:
    RCW 9.41.290 forbids firearm restrictions.
    I think you need to read 9.41.290 again. It only applies to laws and ordinances passed by cities towns and counties.

    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those [/b]laws and ordinances[/b] relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.
    I think YOU need to read it again. The part that you have bolded is only one section of the law, that applies to cities. There are plenty of other sections that cover the WACs. Let me highlight them in red for you.

    For the purpose of WACs, the universities would be considered municipalities. Here is the dictionary.com definition of municipality:



    mu·nic·i·pal·i·ty

    //
    Audio Help/myuˌnɪsəˈpælɪti/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[myoo-nis-uh[/i]-pal[/b]-i-tee]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

    –noun, plural -ties.







    1.
    a city, town, or other district possessing corporate existence and usually its own local government.



    2.
    a community under municipal jurisdiction.



    3.
    the governing body of such a district or community.

    That means that WACs can't regulate firearms. Period. There is no loophole, they are not allowed to do it.

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    How do the colleges fall into that definition? I see nothing that would indicate they are a municipality.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    expvideo, I'm pretty sure they aren't municipalities, as defined by the RCW, as the RCW defines them as "Institutions of Higher Education." I'm not sure if they can be both, but, as I have to run to class, I don't have time to look it up.
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    i made the same point as you expvideo that they really are technically municipalities but as far as the law states if you look under definitions for the University they are not defined as municipalities but as higher education so i believe they would have a case against that.

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    Izzle wrote:
    i made the same point as you expvideo that they really are technically municipalities but as far as the law states if you look under definitions for the University they are not defined as municipalities but as higher education so i believe they would have a case against that.
    Regardless of whether they are defined as municipalities, the first sentence of 9.41.290 prevents the WACs from being valid.


    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components.
    It doesn't have to fall under the definition of a municipality to not be allowed to create gun laws. Because WA state preempts THE ENTIRE FIELD of firearms regulation.


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    Because WA state preempts THE ENTIRE FIELD of firearms regulation.
    And schools that can promulgate WACs are state agencies. It can be argued that the state can't preempt itself.

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    deanf wrote:
    Because WA state preempts THE ENTIRE FIELD of firearms regulation.
    And schools that can promulgate WACs are state agencies. It can be argued that the state can't preempt itself.
    Says who? Why could that be argued? Do you have a case to reffer to, or is this opinion?

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    The State preempts the field. State schools are the State. See where this is going . . . ?

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    deanf wrote:
    Because WA state preempts THE ENTIRE FIELD of firearms regulation.
    And schools that can promulgate WACs are state agencies. It can be argued that the state can't preempt itself.
    Plus, the RCW gives WAC "teeth" by saying they can do these things. Therefor, the RCW can't be preempted by the RCW, as it's already at that level.

    Hm... come to think of it, that's wrong. State preemption, by definition, means that anything that came before has to be looked at to see if it follows with "state law" on firearms. Now the question is, is the WAC and the RCW that gives it power, considered a "state law on firearms" and thus part of state preemption, rather than subject to state preemption....
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    for all the fun things that get pointed out here, we really need to find a bored lawyer that'll work for ammuntion...

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    uncoolperson wrote:
    for all the fun things that get pointed out here, we really need to find a bored lawyer that'll work for ammuntion...
    ROFL! So true.
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    just_a_car wrote:
    uncoolperson wrote:
    for all the fun things that get pointed out here, we really need to find a bored lawyer that'll work for ammuntion...
    ROFL! So true.
    250 rnds hydra shock to the lawyer that fights this (or at least writes a letter to WWU)

    250 rnds if it hits trial

    250 more if it succeeds

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    If the state pre-empts the entire feld of firearm regulation, that would mean the state legislature, not administrative bureacracies. WDOT can't make firearm regulations, how can a state school?
    Be prepared. Be very prepared.

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    deanf wrote:
    The State preempts the field. State schools are the State. See where this is going . . . ?
    No, state schools are run by the state, but they aren't the state government. I think the DOT example in this thread is a good example. The DOT can't create gun laws, even though they are the state, because the laws are preemted on the state level.

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    expvideo wrote:
    deanf wrote:
    The State preempts the field. State schools are the State. See where this is going . . . ?
    No, state schools are run by the state, but they aren't the state government. I think the DOT example in this thread is a good example. The DOT can't create gun laws, even though they are the state, because the laws are preemted on the state level.
    and even if some judge saw that as not the case, the state can't (I believe) hand out the ability to make rules that it has said would be against state law otherwise. (If that makes sense... does in my head, but i suck at articulating stuff)

    can't say "you can't do this", only to later say "well, you there... you can do this"


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    CWU is a public institution of higher education established under Title 28B RCW. Title 28B.07.030 establishes The Washington higher education facilities authority as a State agency and public body within the meaning of RCW 39.53.010. “(7) "Public body" means the state of Washington, its agencies, institutions, political subdivisions, and municipal and quasi-municipal corporations now or hereafter existing under the laws of the state of Washington.”



    As a state agency, and under Title 34.05 RCW, CWU has the authority to make rules and regulations (WACs) that govern the school. This authority is delegated to them by the State Legislature. The legislature has given the Board of CWU limited legislative powers. When the Board is promulgating WACs, they are acting as the State Legislature.

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