Discussion - Video Taping Police

LEO 229 · May 21, 2008

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ne1 wrote:

ama-gi wrote:

Let's keep the cop bashing off this thread. I think the video speaks for itself.

Click to expand...

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4862057&page=1

This is the video of the off duty cop in civilian clothing that got drunk and then assaulted the bartender.

Many people get drunk and do stupid stuff. I do not believe this was a premeditated crime. He was not abusing his position as a cop as he was drunk as hell and dumb just like many civilians that drink and fight.

scarletwahoo · May 21, 2008

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All the cops that Arrested Joyce Lin need to be fired and charged with felonies, if not taken out back without the protection of their guns and badges first. And people ask me why I hate NYC and NJ.

Venator · May 21, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

ne1 wrote:

ama-gi wrote:

Let's keep the cop bashing off this thread. I think the video speaks for itself.

Click to expand...

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4862057&page=1

Click to expand...

This is the video of the off duty cop in civilian clothing that got drunk and then assaulted the bartender.

Many people get drunk and do stupid stuff. I do not believe this was a premeditated crime. He was not abusing his position as a cop as he was drunk as hell and dumb just like many civilians that drink and fight.

You mean citizens don't you? Civilians are citizens not in the military. Cops are civilians too. Unles they are in the military as well.

Venator · May 21, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

ne1 wrote:

ama-gi wrote:

Let's keep the cop bashing off this thread. I think the video speaks for itself.

Click to expand...

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4862057&page=1

Click to expand...

This is the video of the off duty cop in civilian clothing that got drunk and then assaulted the bartender.

Many people get drunk and do stupid stuff. I do not believe this was a premeditated crime. He was not abusing his position as a cop as he was drunk as hell and dumb just like many civilians that drink and fight.

This is a pretty brutal attack. Granted it could have been anyone that was drunk, but as everyone knows some cops have a GOD complex and feel they are above the law, which in this case I believe played a part in this guys decision to do what he did. And I agree with the attorneys statement that if this was not on tape nothing would have happened to this officer. As it was after seeing the tape the charges were upgraded to a felony.

ODA 226 · May 21, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

ne1 wrote:

ama-gi wrote:

Let's keep the cop bashing off this thread. I think the video speaks for itself.

Click to expand...

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4862057&page=1

Click to expand...

This is the video of the off duty cop in civilian clothing that got drunk and then assaulted the bartender.

Many people get drunk and do stupid stuff. I do not believe this was a premeditated crime. He was not abusing his position as a cop as he was drunk as hell and dumb just like many civilians that drink and fight.

LEO 229,

Sorry brother. That dog can't hunt! If any of the other patrons there physically intervened to defend that woman and the CPD did respond in a timely matter, take a guess who would have MOST LIKELY gone to jail?

You know as well as I do, it wouldn't have been the cop! It would most likely have been everyone else! Either with or without the video tape.

Personally if it had been one of my men, he would have gone to our jail IMMEDIATELY and if he resisted arrest, I'd have given him a whole lot of "wall-to-wall" counselling!

Being drunk is no excuse! LEOs need to hold themselves to a higher standard and set the example for those we are sworn to protect. A coward like that, who beats on a 100lbs woman, has no business being a cop.

This POS has dishonored himself and his entire department!

When he does go to the big house, I hope someone dimes this POS out as being a cop. Prison justice will take care of him I'm sure.

scarletwahoo · May 21, 2008

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Venator wrote:

As it was after seeing the tape the charges were upgraded to a felony.

I hope the same happens to these cops even though it won't.

LEO 229 · May 21, 2008

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Funny how people jump to a conclusion.

I was commenting that it was not a drunk cop acting under any color of law.

It was a drunk who became out of control just like many other drunk citizens I have met.

And it is true... being drunk is no excuse so I have no idea why ODA even mentioned it.

This guy should be held accountable just like any other drunk that assaults others.

Venator · May 21, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

Funny how people jump to a conclusion.

I was commenting that it was not a drunk cop acting under any color of law.

It was a drunk who became out of control just like many other drunk citizens I have met.

And it is true... being drunk is no excuse so I have no idea why ODA even mentioned it.

This guy should be held accountable just like any other drunk that assaults others.

True, but as a LEO he is held to a higher standard. A LEO is supposed to be "on duty" 24/7 with gun and all, so if he can have that power 24/7 he should be obligated to conduct himself properly when out in public. Many professions are held to a higher standard, that is why it is all the moredisappointing when they fail our expectation.

LEO 229 · May 21, 2008

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Venator wrote:

True, but as a LEO he is held to a higher standard. A LEO is supposed to be "on duty" 24/7 with gun and all, so if he can have that power 24/7 he should be obligated to conduct himself properly when out in public. Many professions are held to a higher standard, that is why it is all the moredisappointing when they fail our expectation.

No.. he is not "supposed to be" on duty 24/7 or he would be getting paid on-call pay.

Many departments do not require you to even carry a gunoff duty and some suggest you not take any action and just be a good witness instead.

A LEO is held to a higher standard... on and off duty. But this incident is nothing more than a drunk that got mean and beat someone up. The only reason it made the news and this forum is because he works as acop during the day.

He was not there acting as a cop that night. He was at a bar, had too much to drink, and is probably an angry drunk.

Unless he was saying... "stop resisting me.. I am a cop" or "your under arrest" or was wearing his badge around his neck.... this has little to do with his employment.

What ever happened to fighting for freedoms? Because he has a certain job he cannot be an asshole while off the job? Seems a little unfair to me. :lol:

imperialism2024 · May 21, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

No.. he is not "supposed to be" on duty 24/7 or he would be getting paid on-call pay.

Many departments do not require you to even carry a gunoff duty and some suggest you not take any action and just be a good witness instead.

A LEO is held to a higher standard... on and off duty. But this incident is nothing more than a drunk that got mean and beat someone up. The only reason it made the news and this forum is because he works as acop during the day.

He was not there acting as a cop that night. He was at a bar, had too much to drink, and is probably an angry drunk.

Unless he was saying... "stop resisting me.. I am a cop" or "your under arrest" or was wearing his badge around his neck.... this has little to do with his employment.

What ever happened to fighting for freedoms? Because he has a certain job he cannot be an asshole while off the job? Seems a little unfair to me. :lol:

The story said:

"I put the drinks down and he gets right away behind the bar with a chair," Obrycka continued. "I tell him to get out. That's when he tells me, 'Nobody will tell me what to do.' I tried to get him out [from] behind the bar, and boom. He's like trying to grab my neck, then he throws me on the floor. I was down and he was beating me. And I remember he was hitting my head; I was like sitting on the floor. You don't know if he wants to beat you until you bleed and you die. I thought that he would never stop beating me."

I think that's the connection some people are making, though it's too vague to know whether he was refering to being a cop or just to being an overly-aggressive man.

sjalterego · May 21, 2008

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LEO 229 is correct in that at the time of the beating in the Chicago bar case the police officer Anthony Abbate was off-duty and not abusing his LEO powers. The victim bartender did not know he as a cop at the time. I assume other patrons likewise didn't know. However, the allegations are that at some later time, he and/or his brother (also a cop) identified themselves as cops and tried to "convince" the bartender not to file charges or to be a witness. Charges of obstruction of justice/witness intimidation have been added to the assault and battery charges.

At that point, this ceased to be just another a s s h o l e drunkbut an abuse of authority as well.

The other factor that made this a cause celebre is that initially Abbate was charged only with a misdemeanor. It was only after the videotape was released to the public and received attention that charges were upgraded. There is some suspicion that Abbate's fellow cops "protected" Abbate in their reports etc. so that only a misdemeanor was charged. That also makes this a sort of abuse of authority if true.

Venator · May 21, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

Venator wrote:

True, but as a LEO he is held to a higher standard. A LEO is supposed to be "on duty" 24/7 with gun and all, so if he can have that power 24/7 he should be obligated to conduct himself properly when out in public. Many professions are held to a higher standard, that is why it is all the moredisappointing when they fail our expectation.

Click to expand...

No.. he is not "supposed to be" on duty 24/7 or he would be getting paid on-call pay.

Many departments do not require you to even carry a gunoff duty and some suggest you not take any action and just be a good witness instead.

A LEO is held to a higher standard... on and off duty. But this incident is nothing more than a drunk that got mean and beat someone up. The only reason it made the news and this forum is because he works as acop during the day.

He was not there acting as a cop that night. He was at a bar, had too much to drink, and is probably an angry drunk.

Unless he was saying... "stop resisting me.. I am a cop" or "your under arrest" or was wearing his badge around his neck.... this has little to do with his employment.

What ever happened to fighting for freedoms? Because he has a certain job he cannot be an asshole while off the job? Seems a little unfair to me. :lol:

Of course it's unfair, but life isn't fair. When a teacher molests a child under their care that makes the news because the public has a degree of trust in these types of jobs. Same for many jobs. Jerks are jerks, but a jerk LEO is worse in most peoples eyes because of that trust and the power we bestow upon them. Argue all you want about freedom and rights for LEOs, the truth is they are just people, but people with more power then others citizens and they should behave themselves in public, if that is too much to ask there are other ways to make a living.

LEO 229 · May 21, 2008

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sjalterego wrote:

LEO 229 is correct in that at the time of the beating in the Chicago bar case the police officer Anthony Abbate was off-duty and not abusing his LEO powers. The victim bartender did not know he as a cop at the time. I assume other patrons likewise didn't know. However, the allegations are that at some later time, he and/or his brother (also a cop) identified themselves as cops and tried to "convince" the bartender not to file charges or to be a witness. Charges of obstruction of justice/witness intimidation have been added to the assault and battery charges.

At that point, this ceased to be just another a s s h o l e drunkbut an abuse of authority as well.

The other factor that made this a cause celebre is that initially Abbate was charged only with a misdemeanor. It was only after the videotape was released to the public and received attention that charges were upgraded. There is some suspicion that Abbate's fellow cops "protected" Abbate in their reports etc. so that only a misdemeanor was charged. That also makes this a sort of abuse of authority if true.

Now I agree that the responding officers should notask charges be dropped. That is wrong to do. But keep in mind that citizens do that too. They mother of the arrested will approach the family of the victim and beg for the charges to be dropped. So this is not limited to what the police cando.

But still... the assault itself..... is a dead issue. It was a drunk citizen assaulting a bartender. Only in the news because the guy turned out to be an off dutycop and that makes for good news headlines.

LEO 229 · May 21, 2008

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Venator wrote:

Of course it's unfair, but life isn't fair. When a teacher molests a child under their care that makes the news because the public has a degree of trust in these types of jobs. Same for many jobs. Jerks are jerks, but a jerk LEO is worse in most peoples eyes because of that trust and the power we bestow upon them. Argue all you want about freedom and rights for LEOs, the truth is they are just people, but people with more power then others citizens and they should behave themselves in public, if that is too much to ask there are other ways to make a living.

I completely agree. When you are given the trust of the people... you should be held to a higher standard and always do what is right.

But that should reallyonly apply when you are working on behalf of the people and whilegetting paid by them. What I do in my own time is really my own business. If they want to pay me 24 hours a day I will certainly not do anything that the public would find unfavorable.

And if you try and tell me I get paid 24 hours a day you are saying I made 4.66 cents an hour when I first joined the department. :uhoh:

But then.... I am asking the same people that think it is not fair that the police are allowed to carry in all states and alcohol serving establishments and schools and court while THEY do not have to have their lives personally scrutinized while on their own time.

Some view the police as a "privileged class" of citizens but they fail to acknowledge it comes at a very high cost. You lose your personal freedom to do anything you like. Everything you do off duty can result in disciplinary action taken against you at your job. You can be suspended without pay or even fired for flipping off your neighbor.

swillden · May 21, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

But still... the assault itself..... is a dead issue. It was a drunk citizen assaulting a bartender. Only in the news because the guy turned out to be an off dutycop and that makes for good news headlines.

I don't think it's even the fact that it was an off duty cop that makes it worthy of headlines. It's headline-worthy because of the initial leniency of the charges, and doubly so because of the way the charges were upgraded after the video was made public.

What makes this of interest to the public is the appearance of a partial cover-up. Had he been charged and prosecuted fully from the start, I think the general response would have been much less.

nofoa · May 21, 2008

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A phrase comes to mind from a book called Digital Fortress.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" Who guards the guard.

LEO 229 · May 21, 2008

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nofoa wrote:

A phrase comes to mind from a book called Digital Fortress.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" Who guards the guard.

Who watches the watcher?

Who polices the police?

There is always someonethat has that job.

deepdiver · May 21, 2008

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Ya know, I am a business owner in a smallish town. Pretty much any time I go out I see several people I know, people I do business with, people who trust me. If I do something irresponsible, reckless or unconscionable, I essentially lose my job or am punished financially in my job because I don't get certain people's business anymore. Furthermore, my employees are also punished because I then don't have the money for raises and bonuses. So outside of my own home and certain other private residences, if I am not just in my own town, but in any town within the counties I primarily do business, I have to watch my behavior and not do anything that would embarass me, my business, my employees or my customers. AS such, I do not think that expecting an off-duty police officer to not go out, get intoxicated and beat the hell out of a woman less than half his size is in any way an unreasonable expectation.

There are all sorts of jobs where you "off duty" behavior effects your job and in which you have to be careful of public behavior. Judge, politican, anyone with an upper level security clearance, community business owners, etc. Pretty much any job that involves a public trust of some kind involves a public obligation to behave to appropriate community standards even off the clock.

imperialism2024 · May 21, 2008

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swillden wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

But still... the assault itself..... is a dead issue. It was a drunk citizen assaulting a bartender. Only in the news because the guy turned out to be an off dutycop and that makes for good news headlines.

Click to expand...

I don't think it's even the fact that it was an off duty cop that makes it worthy of headlines. It's headline-worthy because of the initial leniency of the charges, and doubly so because of the way the charges were upgraded after the video was made public.

What makes this of interest to the public is the appearance of a partial cover-up. Had he been charged and prosecuted fully from the start, I think the general response would have been much less.

I'm not so sure it's that much of a cover-up as it is an example of how the system should be operating. Innocent until proven guilty. If there was no good reason to charge for a greater crime, then they were correct in not upgrading the charge until the video came out. Unfortunately, we've become so accustomed to the "guilty until plea bargained to slightly less guilty" or "guilty until bankrupted but proven innocent" standards that anything less seems like a cover-up.

LEO 229 · May 21, 2008

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deepdiver wrote:

Ya know, I am a business owner in a smallish town. Pretty much any time I go out I see several people I know, people I do business with, people who trust me. If I do something irresponsible, reckless or unconscionable, I essentially lose my job or am punished financially in my job because I don't get certain people's business anymore. Furthermore, my employees are also punished because I then don't have the money for raises and bonuses. So outside of my own home and certain other private residences, if I am not just in my own town, but in any town within the counties I primarily do business, I have to watch my behavior and not do anything that would embarass me, my business, my employees or my customers. AS such, I do not think that expecting an off-duty police officer to not go out, get intoxicated and beat the hell out of a woman less than half his size is in any way an unreasonable expectation.

There are all sorts of jobs where you "off duty" behavior effects your job and in which you have to be careful of public behavior. Judge, politican, anyone with an upper level security clearance, community business owners, etc. Pretty much any job that involves a public trust of some kind involves a public obligation to behave to appropriate community standards even off the clock.

If you flip off your neighbor... who does he complain to?

Will you be fired from your business?

At best.. he and his friends may not come to your store...

But in your case you own a business and you rely on people to PAY YOU! So you better be kind or they will not visit you. But you will not be fired or suspected from the store.

Security Clearance?? Please! Flipping off your neighbor will not do much to that.

Any public service job will be scrutinized.

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