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Thread: Tactical discussion - loading mags

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    There was a discussion on handgunforum.net about the merits of alternating ammo. I thought that particular way of doing things was just OCD and potentially dangerous, however it did make me think that there may be some situations in which a magazine of mixed, if not alternated, ammo would make a difference.

    First off, I think having an LTL option like a beanbag, rubber bullet or frangible handgun ammo is lunacy. That one shot may be all you get and if it doesn't put the BG down you could be dead before you get the next shot off.

    I also think that alternating ammunition in a mag or cylinder sounds sensible on its face, but really it effectively reduces your ammunition capacity by half when you need only one or the other type of ammunition. For instance, if you alternate hollowpoints with FMJs so you can punch through a car door when you need to, only the FMJs will do the job and you're wasting HPs getting to the FMJs.

    However, there are some combinations that might really make sense from a tactical standpoint. For instance, consider the stereotypical shooting; one guy shooting another (or both shooting at each other), it's over in seconds. If it progresses beyond that point, the combatants have found cover and are trading rounds.

    Given that logical evolution of a gunfight, would it make any sense to load mags with three or four hollowpoints on top and FMJs for the rest of the mag? In that case, your typicalBG encountercan beended with a few well-aimed hollowpoints. If it progresses to the point where your shooter has found cover, the FMJs give more penetrating power through car doors, wood paneling, walls, etc, and you have them queued up ready to go with no changing of mags necessary.

    I think it's a good idea in any case to have one mag of FMJ ammo available for such a situation. It's still the work of a couple seconds to drop your unfinished HP mag and slam a mag of FMJs home, and you should have found cover if the encounter becomes that big of a shootout; if you're heading for cover the HPs make the BG keep his head down just as good as anything else.

    Discussion open; feel free to share your preference for mag loading and your logic behind it. Let's just keep it civil, and also remember this is not a caliber thread unless your loading scheme is dependent on or a result of your chosen caliber. The general effectiveness of one caliber over another has been discussed in many threads, some of them still active.


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    Bravo good post!

    I think you bring up many good points as well as contraversal thought.

    Depending on the firearm, cal, size, and the amount of spare magazines you keep with you, I feel your choices are only limited on those factors. If you carry two extra magazines in addition to the one in your gun and all of those magazines are double stack and you don't live in a state that limits the amount that magazine can hold I cannot see any reason to not load the last mag with a few FMJ's. On the otherside of the fense if you are carrying a five shot revolver with only one reload I would think that having all Hp's would be only to your advantage.

    Now lets take this a step further by talking about the gun. Full size five inch barrel with full size grips? Or are we talking subcompact with only three inches of barrel and a tiny grip that usually leaves the pinky swaying in the breeze.

    The difference is important because most defense loads are rated and tested using a 5 inch barrel. Reducing this down to a four inch barrel will mean at least a quarter percentagereduction in fps because less powder is going to be used. What does all this mean? Using a 3 in subcompact could potentially leave your Hp's without enough speed to properly expand making them at best justa FMJ upon impact anyway.We have not even gotten into theimportance of proper grip. Limp wristing can have a small effect on velocity as well. Studies are underway to find outjust how much, but a limp grip may mean the difference of 10 to 30 fps. So having a fullsize grip and proper grip technique is important!

    Ammunitions company are now stepping up the game. Speer now offers HP's specifically designed for short barrelled auto's and revolvers. This ammo expands at much lower velocities and is more effective when shot out of said firearms. But still you are going to deal with the draw backs of limited ammo supply in the first place when using a subcompact or snub revolver.

    I carry a 1911 single stack. If I am going out and about for an extended peroid of time that may involve being out during the evening hours I will carry my Flashlight, knife, OC sprayand 1 spare mag. If I am only staying in town and don't plan to be out past sunset without stopping at home I will only carry my gun, OC sprayand knife. I load both my magazines with Winchester Ranger SXT's 230gr. It is my deepest hope to never have to usethem. And if at all possible in all situations I will always try and retreat if it is safe for me and others.I practice more with my verbal skills and situationalawareness skills thanmost I know. If it came down to a shoot out with both of us behind cover I have no problem letting him expend his ammo while I wait patiently and call the police.



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    Don't waste time alternating ammo. If you're worried about penetrating barriers, you should be running away from the fight. And any handgun round isn't going to do that well against barriers/cover anyway. So, if you're in Mogadishu, and carrying only a handgun and 5 extra mags, sure.... carry one or two in FMJ, but for the real world civilian who only anticipates self-defense... your fight will be done in 2-4 rounds... theoretically against a gang maybe one magazine... you'll be running for cover and shooting... or just 'standing up' and fighting, then running away if they're still alive or un-hit or calling the cops to clean up if you hit them all.
    my .02 euros

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    IdahoCorsair wrote:
    Don't waste time alternating ammo. If you're worried about penetrating barriers, you should be running away from the fight. And any handgun round isn't going to do that well against barriers/cover anyway. So, if you're in Mogadishu, and carrying only a handgun and 5 extra mags, sure.... carry one or two in FMJ, but for the real world civilian who only anticipates self-defense... your fight will be done in 2-4 rounds... theoretically against a gang maybe one magazine... you'll be running for cover and shooting... or just 'standing up' and fighting, then running away if they're still alive or un-hit or calling the cops to clean up if you hit them all.
    my .02 euros
    I said I didn't agree with alternating ammo. It's wasteful and counterproductive. Or are you talking about swapping mags?

    You may be right that I should be running from ashootout that lasts more than a few seconds or involves multiple BGs, but what if I'm with my family and one of them has been hit in the initial exchange? There's no way in hell I'm going to abandon one of my charges just because they can't run. In that case I find cover, and the gang has done the same. HPs are now worthless unless someone pokes their head out, and when was the last time you saw a gang-banger do anything from behind cover than stick their gun out and unload?

    So I guess your position is "stick with HPs". I probably should have put a poll on this thread. Does anybody see merit in having FMJs further down a mag, or in a seperate mag?

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    IdahoCorsair wrote:
    And any handgun round isn't going to do that well against barriers/cover anyway. So, if you're in Mogadishu, and carrying only a handgun and 5 extra mags, sure.... carry one or two in FMJ, but for the real world civilian who only anticipates self-defense...
    Depends on the barrier or cover. I have seen video of 9mm hollowpoint rounds going through several house walls before stopping.

    And if you are in Mogadishu, I would think carrying more than just a handgun would be advised... :P
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    I've often thought about this.

    I've come to the conclusion, though, that there are too many possible situations to just pick one and come up with an ideal ammo or pattern of ammo for that. For a handgun, that is. One needs to pick an all-purpose round, and use that. Or at least pick ammo based on location... select a powerful FMJ round in the wilderness where it's more likely one will be confronted by a four-legged attacker, select a less powerful but fragmenting round for urban environments, where one doesn't want the round to go through the BG, through a few walls, and into an orphan. So it makes sense to pick the right ammo for a generalized environment... but anything more specific than that is a waste of time, though I can't see it being detrimental.

    Now, I can see the point in having mags of different rounds when there may be a few seconds leeway to swap for the best round. My Kel-Tec Sub-2000 has two mags of FMJ and one of JHP stored with it, and I keep two mags for my Saiga-12 loaded with slugs while the rest buckshot. If I ever need to deploy them, I take for granted having a few seconds to pick the right mag. Going with this same line of thinking, it would make sense to carry a spare mag of FMJ's in the event that one needs them enough to swap for it.

    Anyhow... staggering mags is stupid and pointless. If the round you carry isn't good enough for 99% of the SD scenarios you can envision, pick a better round.

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    Well, I do stagger my ammo in my .45. I was carrying Corbon DPX rounds. I like the round's ballistics and it shoots well from my XD. My only concern with it at all is that it is a heck of a penetrator for a .45 HP and perhaps an overpenetrator. Later, after having a supply of DPX on hand, I acquired some Winchester Ranger 230gr SXTs as an unexpected gift. Also a pretty hot round with a very similar feel through the pistol, but also a slower round than the DPX that does not penetrate quite as much and which may have slightly better expansion depending on the the specifics of the target. So there I was, after testing in my firearm, with ~100 rds of, IMO, very effective self-defense rounds, both of which feed well in my XD, both of which feel similar when firing, and with both of which I have the same POI. What's a guy to do?

    I decided to load the pipe and first round in the mag with SXT. I think it may be a slightly better stopper although a slightly less effective penetrator. Third round on I alternate DPX with SXT. Knowing it is unlikely I will need more than a few rounds in a real life situation why would I do this? If I do not get the desired result with the first 2 rounds it is likely either because the bullets didn't go where they needed to go in which case the ammo used is mostly irrelevant, or possibly because I am not getting enough penetration, especially in winter with heavy clothing. If it isn't my nerves and adrenaline causing bad aim, my third round has that little bit of extra penetration (about 2" in ballistic gel according to tests on the net) that maybe I need to stop the BG.

    So while I do stagger ammo I don't use ammo with grossly different characteristics. They have similar expansion and penetration. I first ensured that my POI and feel with both was similar. Also ensured that they both feed well separately and staggered. They are both rounds I would be fine with carrying individually. While similar in characteristics, both have a possible slight advantage in certain situations but not enough to preclude the use of either as competent self-defense ammo. Lastly, since I already had both, why not on the off chance that it does some day give me an edge I need to survive?

    So, I don't see it being stupid or pointless in my case with the ammo I am carrying. There are combinations of ammo that I would see as pretty pointless and at least silly if not stupid. I wouldn't for example even remotely consider alternating Pow-R-Ball and FMJ. Alternating a round designed to minimize over penetration with a round that is almost guaranteed to over-penetrate seems pretty silly to me.

    Edit: I do not stagger rounds in my 9mm. I just carry full mags of speer short barrel in it. I have considered incorporating DPX in it as well, but it is not usually stocked locally in 9mm and it isn't worth it to me to make a special effort to order any just for that purpose.
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    DD, you make a good case, and it seems to make sense to me. I was referring to rounds with vastly different characteristics. But hell, if you have two good rounds that universally useful, then I can see a point in staggering them.

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    Don't do it.
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    ODA 226 wrote:
    Don't do it.
    Laff. Um, would you care to elaborate?
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    He meant crack.



    Don't do it.


    Edit: ...and I concur.

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    I believe this is called "Dutch loading" and I've done it, but more with a shotgun (buck shot and slugs).
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    Now that I have the time to do so... Different rounds have vastly different points of impacts even when fired through the same weapon. If you look at various firearms reviews, you will see that the variances can be up to 2 inches at very close ranges and with noticable variations in recoil, muzzle blast and flash...

    ( I know that some will throw a "penalty flag" at me for not quoting sources, but I only have 15 minutes at this computer)

    My personal advice is to find one high performance round that has adequate penetration/ energy transfer for various mediums that may be encountered on the street (tissue/bone/clothing at various times of the year) that also achieves a reasonable degree of accuracy and minamalrecoil/ muzzle blast/flash, and stay with that.

    Fire for record with that lot of ammo and retain said record. ALWAYS KNOW YOUR POINT OF AIM< POINT OF IMPACT WITH EVERY SHOT!

    Personally, I carry 230 grain Golden Sabers in my 3 inch Springfield. It give the best of all the above listed with more than adequate penetration/ energy transfer.


    Edit: The only 2 times I've ever "Dutch Loaded" was with my Entry Striker 7.5 inch. I was working as a breacher and had the first 6 rounds loaded with Dust Busters and the rest with 00 Buck. This was not my primary or secondary weapon, but was my primary for breaching doors.

    The other was with was with the 27th round of my CAR-15 (tracer) to let me know that I had 3 rounds left in my weapon. Good thing to know in a firefight...



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    Shotgun wrote:
    I believe this is called "Dutch loading" and I've done it, but more with a shotgun (buck shot and slugs).
    I believe you are correct. Thank you for giving us the terminology for our conversation. I was not familiar with that term but found much discussion about it online.

    It appears from discussion that this is most common now days with shotguns to alternate slugs/00 buck. It also appears to be a hotly debated issue in certain circles.

    For handguns, most all the dutch loading references were as to using JHP and FMJ. I don't think I would ever do that. Actually, there probably aren't many combinations I would use in a dutch load for a handgun as I don't think most rounds are close enough to feed consistently, feel consistent in the pistol, have a common POI, and also have enough differences and similarities to just compliment each other in a way to give any self-defense advantage.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    I second the above statement, in that I only do this with my shotguns. Generally it involves buckshot and slugs as well. There is also the possibility that the one in the tube would be a decently high velocity Federal birdshot round, because of the risks of overpenetration involved in my residence.

    Now I've decided to almost exclusively load both shotguns with low recoil Federal Tactical 9 pellet 00 Buck (With "flitecontrol" wad) and low recoil Winchester Ranger 1oz. Slugs. If I mix up what's in the shotgun, I like the first one or two to be 00 Buck followed by slugs. Both of these rounds should prove highly effective without extreme overpenetration issues. While I'd imagine they can still go through someone, they'd likely exit with significantly less energy than the full power rounds.


    I did have someone at a gun store suggest alternating frangible and lead bullets to "get the benefits of each." To me it seems to nullify any advantage the frangibles give in terms of the reduction in the risk of collateral damage. Also, depending upon the type of frangible bullet, the lead rounds may not have much more penetration through most barriers anyway. I think it came from a lack of understanding of the differences in frangible bullets as well as the fact that he did not believe Extreme Shock (Which I had mentioned at some point beforehand) manufactures decent ammunition. He admitted he'd never seen or heard of it, but nonetheless he was a self proclaimed expert on the matter.

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    Seriously....

    will two different types of ammo make a difference in a pistol?

    Unless we're talking about snakeshot and defensive loads, i doubt it.

    JSP Vs. JHP in a rifle for certain game, sure.

    Given the fact that what you can stuff into a shotgun shell is really only limited to the size of the shell and your imagination, definately.

    in a handgun, where the name of the game is "think fast" not really. Most of us use defensive loads, but in reality the object of the game is to STOP the attack, and with the majority of defensive handguns (we'll say .380 and better) HAVING a gun is more important to me than what exactly is in it. At the "moment of truth" i'm not going to really care if I'm using target FMJ or hydra shocks.

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    ODA 226 wrote:
    The other was with was with the 27th round of my CAR-15 (tracer) to let me know that I had 3 rounds left in my weapon. Good thing to know in a firefight...
    Sounds like a good idea for loading a handgun...

    Now the question that remains is if they make tracers in ,44 magnum

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    ODA 226 wrote:
    The other was with was with the 27th round of my CAR-15 (tracer) to let me know that I had 3 rounds left in my weapon. Good thing to know in a firefight...
    Sounds like a good idea for loading a handgun...

    Now the question that remains is if they make tracers in ,44 magnum
    LMAO! I THINK I can count to 6 ! But only to 5 if I'm shooting my Model 29... I'd have to change hands and use my sixth finger! ROTHLMAO!
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    savery wrote:
    Seriously....

    will two different types of ammo make a difference in a pistol?
    Probably not. And depending on the ammo it may cause jams or other problems that would not otherwise be an issue which is why it is not generally practiced or recommended. And if it does matter, most of the time you probably should have been carrying a mag full of the round that mattered. And as ODA226 pointed out, if your different ammos have a different POI, you have a whole other problem potentially.

    I would say that the circumstance and choice of dutch loading ammo in my case is very much the exception rather than the rule. As I explained above, I didn't set out with the intention of dutch loading but just ended up in a situation with ammo similar enough and yet different enough to think it a reasonable hedge. If I hadn't been given those boxes of Ranger ammo, and if the Ranger ammo wasn't so similar in many ways to the ammo I already carried, and if I didn't think that the two rounds had complimentary weaknesses, I can't imagine that I would have ever decided to do it either.

    If anyone were to ask me about it I would say that yes, I do it with one pistol with very specific ammo. I wouldn't generally recommend it and that most of the dutch loading I have read about doesn't make any sense to me and seems to diminish the purpose of both rounds carried rather than compliment defensive ability.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    ODA 226 wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    ODA 226 wrote:
    The other was with was with the 27th round of my CAR-15 (tracer) to let me know that I had 3 rounds left in my weapon. Good thing to know in a firefight...
    Sounds like a good idea for loading a handgun...

    Now the question that remains is if they make tracers in ,44 magnum
    LMAO! I THINK I can count to 6 ! But only to 5 if I'm shooting my Model 29... I'd have to change hands and use my sixth finger! ROTHLMAO!
    And if you lost count...I can hand you a clip or two or 12:celebrate

    TJ

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    Liko81 wrote:
    ...For instance, if you alternate hollowpoints with FMJs so you can punch through a car door when you need to, only the FMJs will do the job and you're wasting HPs getting to the FMJs....
    A car door is only slightly more protective than taping tin cans to your chest. A hollowpoint will go through very easily.

    Besides, you are talking about a handgun, which is already a very uneffective fighting tool. If hollowpoints won't penetrate the BG's cover, FMJs aren't going to be very effective either.

    There is no tactical purpose for FMJ in a handgun.

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    Until the "magic bullet" is invented, ammo selection always involves a compromise regarding accuracy, penetration, recoil, expansion, muzzle flash, weight retention, etc. There have been pretty good advances in bullet design over the past 20 years, so I believe thatwe can be pretty happy with the ammo that's available nowadays and don't need to seriously consider Dutch loading for most realistic situations.

    Except for law enforcement personnel, most people won't be involved in situations calling for penetration of car bodies. And plenty of good hollowpoints will penetrate auto sheet metal without a problem. Penetration of a auto body is also dependent upon the angle at which the round hits. I would imagine there's actually a greater chance of a round nose FMJ round glancing off an auto surface when hitting at an acute angle.

    If your rounds won't penetrate standard car doors and you're actually worried that you made need to do that, then maybe you ought to consider something more than a.22 short as your carry gun!

    Someone mentioned loading three tracer rounds. That's a fairly standard military practice, and I'm not sure I would consider that "Dutch loading" per se, but it did remind me of something I have done from time-to-time, i.e., loading the second round into the mag with a hotter round than the rest. I don't usually count rounds as I fire,and firing the hotter round allows me to tactilely (that's "tactile"-- not "tactical") ascertain when I have one round leftand to mentally prepare for the need to reload after the next round. It's justaslight time advantagethan just waiting for the feel of the slide locking, but that small advantage might make the difference. Effective shooting is more mental than physical!

    Oh, the tracer rounds may alert a savvy opponent of your need to reload.... never underestimate your opponent... until you have defeated him.
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    Shotgun wrote:
    Oh, the tracer rounds may alert a savvy opponent of your need to reload.... never underestimate your opponent... until you have defeated him.
    Like they say: tracer rounds work both ways! I said that I loaded the 27th ROUND (singular) to let me know I was down to 3 rounds.....

    While I ALWAYS reloaded to capacity at every opportunity and had a good IDEA how many rounds I had left, seeing that one tracer was ALWAYS a sure reminder!

    I found out the hard way at a very young age that the loudest sound in the world was to hit an empty chamber in a gunfight. EVERYONE knows you're out of ammo!
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    ODA 226 wrote:
    I found out the hard way at a very young age that the loudest sound in the world was to hit an empty chamber in a gunfight. EVERYONE knows you're out of ammo!
    Not as bad as the "ping" from an empty Garand, I'll bet.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    ODA 226 wrote:
    I found out the hard way at a very young age that the loudest sound in the world was to hit an empty chamber in a gunfight. EVERYONE knows you're out of ammo!
    Not as bad as the "ping" from an empty Garand, I'll bet.
    With the Garand, that sound is amplified 200%!!!!!
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